[Primer/Deck] Zoo

[monkeymealing]

nekoyama is my MTG spirit animal!

Here is his new version of zoo! I am assuming the Vial is his answer to Miracles!

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/421435#online

also look at the list of decks he's come up with:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/nekoyama

[ironclad8690]

He certainly is a creative dude. Every time I try to hit him up on mtgo he never responds lol. I want to bounce some ideas off of him.

[r497]

Hey guys. I'm a Modern Zoo player and interested in Legacy Zoo.

I've found this list online, do you think it can work?

20 LANDS
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

23 CREATURES
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

16 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile

1 OTHER SPELLS
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Price of Progress
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Also, has anyone tried something like the Modern list of Zoo, running more creatures to go wide and having Burning-Tree Emissary + Reckless Bushwhacker/Atarka's Command to pump things up?

[Jimbrewersbro]

Hey guys. I'm a Modern Zoo player and interested in Legacy Zoo.

I've found this list online, do you think it can work?

20 LANDS
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

23 CREATURES
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

16 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile

1 OTHER SPELLS
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Price of Progress
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Grafdigger's Cage

Also, has anyone tried something like the Modern list of Zoo, running more creatures to go wide and having Burning-Tree Emissary + Reckless Bushwhacker/Atarka's Command to pump things up?

Your list is pretty old school but I believe it would shred a lot of the Delver decks that are out there. The biggest issue is that you really can't beat miracles because terminus/countertop is so difficult to beat (not impossible, but like 10% with this list). Game one you can't really beat combo, so your sideboard needs as many pieces as possible to beat it. The third issue is that a resolved batterskull is difficult if you don't have pridemage in your main deck. Again you can beat it, but it usually takes a 2 for one trade. Finally more recent zoo decks have been playing PWs main deck to give some game against Miracles, or splashing back for abrupt decay. Hope that helps.

[Curby]

PW? Also, if you have any Eldrazi, Merfolk, or Loam in your meta, beware of Chalice. My Zoo runs an old-school low curve because I only play it casually, but even I run more 2s (specifically Pridemages). As for the recent lists that have been doing well, their curves are quite a bit higher.

[r497]

Do you guys have an up-to-date list to suggets as a start point?

The last monthly Legacy League at my LGS had this top8:
UB Reanimator, Punishing Jund, Goblins, Miracles, Grixis Delver, Elves, Rug Delver, D&T.
There is also one guy that is always on Burn, one on Esper Deathblade and Shardless BUG.

[Jimbrewersbro]

PW? Also, if you have any Eldrazi, Merfolk, or Loam in your meta, beware of Chalice. My Zoo runs an old-school low curve because I only play it casually, but even I run more 2s (specifically Pridemages). As for the recent lists that have been doing well, their curves are quite a bit higher.

PWs=Planeswalkers (ie. Domri, Arlin Kord, Nissa).

Here is an example of the list that has 5-0 a daily in the last couple months.
22 LANDS
1 Arid Mesa
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
2 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
17 CREATURES
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Voice of Resurgence
12 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares
9 OTHER SPELLS
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Domri Rade
3 Oath of Nissa
2 Sylvan Library
SIDEBOARD
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

[r497]

Punishing+Grove is good in which matchups?
Deathrite is bad in the deck?

[Seraphix]

Punishing+Grove is good in which matchups?
Deathrite is bad in the deck?

I've thought about trying Deathrite in Zoo but the problem it is really at odds with the manabase. You must have a critical mass of Plains and Mountains to power up your Nacatls, but in an aggressive deck Deathrite wants a bunch of Black sources to use the drain ability. This is awkward since Black is the splash color spell-wise. There might be a way to make it work with Badlands/Srubland/a different mix of fetches but I haven't tried.

Punishing Fire is best against other midrange decks and control decks. Its usually good against aggro/tempo/tribal too but is sometimes a bit slow against those decks.

[r497]

I've thought about trying Deathrite in Zoo but the problem it is really at odds with the manabase. You must have a critical mass of Plains and Mountains to power up your Nacatls, but in an aggressive deck Deathrite wants a bunch of Black sources to use the drain ability. This is awkward since Black is the splash color spell-wise. There might be a way to make it work with Badlands/Srubland/a different mix of fetches but I haven't tried.

Punishing Fire is best against other midrange decks and control decks. Its usually good against aggro/tempo/tribal too but is sometimes a bit slow against those decks.

In that list posted above by Jimbrewersbro there's no Nacatl, so maybe Deathrites could work. It's a little weird with Reliquary, tho.

Also, no Bloodbraid?
Sorry for the tons of noobish questions, just trying to figure the archetype out hahaha
It's somewhat different from it's Modern port.

[Seraphix]

In that list posted above by Jimbrewersbro there's no Nacatl, so maybe Deathrites could work. It's a little weird with Reliquary, tho.

Also, no Bloodbraid?
Sorry for the tons of noobish questions, just trying to figure the archetype out hahaha
It's somewhat different from it's Modern port.

The Punishing Zoo lists from MTGO with GSZ and no Nacatls or Bolts look really weird to me (and I still can't fathom not playing 1 G. Teeg main, but I guess no one on MTGO plays combo). Once you've removed your most aggressive elements I think you're better off playing Punishing Maverick, which is much better equipped to grind out games with Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, Scryb Ranger, and lands like Maze of Ith or Dark Depths. When I played Punishing Zoo for a bit there were definitely many spots I wished I was playing Maverick (not to say one is better or worse, but just different).

There is a world where you could just take the list that was posted and shave some Hierarchs for Deathrites and throw in a Bayou and maybe another Black land. When playing a slower deck I think its less important to have access to the drain ability all the time. Deathrite sometimes shrinks your Knights, but not to the point that they are prohibitive to play together. I would keep at least one Hierarch though, its easy to have a mix with GSZ and there are absolutely spots where you would rather have her instead.

Megadeus was testing a list with Bloodbraid Elf a few months ago and seemed to be doing ok with it. Its powerful but can be surprisingly awkward and poorly positioned in Zoo unless you construct your deck very carefully.

[r497]

Do you mind sharing your list, Seraphix?
It's always nice to see different takes

[Megadeus]

Yeah I had some success on a local level, but that was really it. It's awkward because I think you want to main deck Thalia right now, and with T4 Bloodbraid and Thalia out you need 5 mana for any non creature you hit off her. But both are kind of key cards to handling Miracles so it's kind of necessary imo. Also Ghor Clan was always awesome for me so anyone interested in zoo I highly recommend it. Overall though the deck just felt incredibly underpowered compared to most of the meta and there was little to do to help that fact.

The most powerful thing I felt like I was doing most games was price of progress which leads me to believe burn is just better in most scenarios. I thought about a list including Noble Hierarchs and Magus of the Moons, but never really got around to trying it out

[HateKnuckle]

Obviously the deck folds combo strats so a certain amount of MD hate is required. I've seen Thalias, Voices, and Teegs. What are the other options that work?

Blood Moon? This would shore up the Eldrazi MU as well as a couple of other greedy decks. The downside of course being that you can't reliably get Nacatl to work if you're even playing her.

Grand Abolisher? If the deck needs any more help against Miracles he might be right for the job.

Thalia, Cathar Heretic? She is definitely Eldrazi hate as well as Sneak and Show hate.


Also, should the deck include some sort of stoneforge package? I can imagine that the power of your deck just flies through the roof at the addition of awesome equipment and their herald, Stoneforge Mystic.

[Sunday Funday]

I came across this list on tcdecks:

Creatures [22]

3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Instants [13]

2 Price of Progress
3 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
Sorceries [4]

4 Chain Lightning
Enchantments [1]

1 Sylvan Library
Lands [20]

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tormod's Crypt

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Tormod's Crypt

I really like the main deck Pridemages to stop problematic artifacts/enchantments (Chalice, CounterBalance) and also the 3 Gaddock Teegs to stop the unfair decks like storm (e.g. Empty, Ad Nauseam, Tendrils), and Miracles (Entreat, Terminus). What do you guys think?

[Seraphix]

I came across this list on tcdecks:

Creatures [22]

3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Instants [13]

2 Price of Progress
3 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
Sorceries [4]

4 Chain Lightning
Enchantments [1]

1 Sylvan Library
Lands [20]

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tormod's Crypt

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Tormod's Crypt

I really like the main deck Pridemages to stop problematic artifacts/enchantments (Chalice, CounterBalance) and also the 3 Gaddock Teegs to stop the unfair decks like storm (e.g. Empty, Ad Nauseam, Tendrils), and Miracles (Entreat, Terminus). What do you guys think?

Solid looking old-school list. Large quantities of QPM/G. Teeg were commonly played MD for exactly the reasons you mention.

I do question the Eldrazi matchup for small Zoo though. Maybe it's time to play Blood Moon in the SB.

[Pellefant]

Because it felt like forever since I summoned nacatls I decided to sleeve them up for the weekly legacy.

This is the list I played through 4 rounds yesterday, roughly 30 players I think.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 Wasteland

3 Punishing Fire
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Sylvan Library

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

SB
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Trinisphere
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Red Elemental Blast


Round 1, vs. Jund Loam prison (with Punishing Fire, Burning Wish and Chains/Anvil combo)
G1 he stabilizes at 2 life and gets his Chains of Mephistopheles/Anvil of Bogardan lock going. We both mulligan to 5 G2 but i get Sylvan Library going early which gives me plenty of fuel. G3 = double nacatl beats + SoFaI for the win.

1-0 (2-1 in games)

Round 2, vs. Deadguy Ale
G1 he gets new Thalia equipped with SoFaI and I can't handle her. G2 I beat him down with cats and stuff while he tries to stabilize, I burn him for the last 2 points the turn before he would get Jitte online. G3 I sit behind a wall of huge knights while Punishing Fire mows down his team.

2-0 (4-2 in games)

Round 3, vs. Goblins (Sandro95)
G1 Sandro mulligans to 5. I get a boardful of critters and beat down, Skarrg, the Rage Pits let's me connect through his chumpers.
G2 I stave off lackey turn 1 and lackey turn 2. The board clogs up good within a few turns but Skarrg once again enables me to close the game out fast.

3-0 (6-2 in games)

Round 4, vs. UR delver
G1 he beats me down with delver and the flying haste prowess guy. Price of Progress for 8 finishes the job. Opponent expresses confusion over Wild Nacatl and Grove of the Burnwillows in the same deck.
G2 I get Hierarch into SoFaI while my opponent fails to find a second land and Brainstorm locks himself (despite playing probe and Ponder turn 1). He scoops to the sword.
G3 I remove his turn 1 delver and he spends a couple of turns looking for more creatures while I deploy some creatures, including a 4/4 Knight who eventually goes the distance.

4-0 (8-3 in games)

I've been trying to make Huntmaster of the Fells work for some time but it continues to be underwhelming unfortunately, going forward I'm probably running Thrun instead.

Deck was a blast to play, not much else to say, I just decided to share my latest endeavors since zoo gets so very little love nowadays :)

[Curby]

Thanks for the report, and congrats on the finish! Fellow Zoo fan here, but I'm not sure it's competitive in a general meta. I notice you dodged all combo (not just Storm and S&T but even more fringe decks like Reanimator, Dredge, Painter, Elves, etc.), which partially explains your result.

I'm also wondering at what point a deck stops being Zoo. It looks a lot like Punishing Maverick (PFires/Hierarch/KotR/GSZ) and a bit like D&T (SFM package, land-based disruption). Like I said I'm a Zoo fan, so it kind of saddens me that "original Zoo" (aggressive, low-cost critters with burn to clear the way) just doesn't work anymore. Hell, you've got zero Tarmogoyfs in the list. Everything I've seen in the past year or so swings much heavier in the aggro-control arena than pure aggro.

I'm happy for your result, and I hope you keep on running Zoo or Zoo derivatives. I just wish the deck didn't have to become something else and then dodge a fair percentage of the meta in order to have a chance.

[Seraphix]

Because it felt like forever since I summoned nacatls I decided to sleeve them up for the weekly legacy.

...

Glad people are still rocking Zoo. This looks a lot like this lists nekoyama has been doing well with on MTGO. Do you have any thoughts on Skaarg VS Kessig Wolf Run?

I'm working on a new Big Zoo list with Thalia, Heretic Cathar that I'll hopefully have a chance to try soon.

Thanks for the report, and congrats on the finish! Fellow Zoo fan here, but I'm not sure it's competitive in a general meta. I notice you dodged all combo (not just Storm and S&T but even more fringe decks like Reanimator, Dredge, Painter, Elves, etc.), which partially explains your result.

I'm also wondering at what point a deck stops being Zoo. It looks a lot like Punishing Maverick (PFires/Hierarch/KotR/GSZ) and a bit like D&T (SFM package, land-based disruption). Like I said I'm a Zoo fan, so it kind of saddens me that "original Zoo" (aggressive, low-cost critters with burn to clear the way) just doesn't work anymore. Hell, you've got zero Tarmogoyfs in the list. Everything I've seen in the past year or so swings much heavier in the aggro-control arena than pure aggro.

I'm happy for your result, and I hope you keep on running Zoo or Zoo derivatives. I just wish the deck didn't have to become something else and then dodge a fair percentage of the meta in order to have a chance.

Its still decidedly a Zoo deck, not a Maverick deck, as long as it has Nacatls and no Mother of Runes. I think small Zoo is in a tough spot these days against major decks like Counter-Top, Lands, and Eldrazi, which bigger Zoo decks with cards like GSZ and Knight are much better positioned against.

[Curby]

Its still decidedly a Zoo deck, not a Maverick deck, as long as it has Nacatls and no Mother of Runes.

So you don't need Lightning Bolts in your Zoo? You don't need Tarmogoyfs in your Zoo? Replacing raw consistency with a full equipment toolbox, creature toolbox, and land toolbox sounds like Zoo to you?

Well, if you're ok calling that Zoo simply because it has Nacatls, I guess I'm happy for you. I still disagree, but it's not a disagreement that helps the archetype, so I'll shut up now.