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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

  1. #41

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuyira View Post
    Up front: with combo decks I mean any deck that uses more than a 2- or 3-card combo to go off. Sneak Show & Reanimator for example are not concidered combo decks in my explanation for cardchoices below.

    Personally I find Mindbreak trap weak against any combo deck except Belcher, due to the silence & discard effects TES and ANT decks use. Plus against Elves I can't use the Mindbreak Trap either. The Ethersworn Canonists are more versatile, but slower and obviously not that great against Belcher, but still acceptable.
    Leyline seems fine except against Elves and lists with Empty the Warrens. It's also nice against Abrupt Decay since that can't kill it, but usually ANT or TES have Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth to deal with it or TES/Charbelcher go off with Empty the Warrens. The deal with Leyline of Sanctity is you have to mulligan for it since it's a poor topdeck, obviously you have to mulligan for Ethersworn Canonist as well, but I prefer it's utility accross the field.

    In the end Zoo wins from combo decks by sticking to it's own plan: putting a threat down T1 and T2, with in my opinion the threat in T2 preferably being a hatebear that stalls long enough for you to seal the game. Leyline doesn't aid in the beatdown plan Zoo has in the first place. Countering the odd brainstorm or ponder can be amazingly good as well, since they sometimes keep a hand due to having such a spell combined with a fetchland.

    Gaddock Teeg against Miracles is cute, but they play Swords to Plowshares/Snapcaster Mage. The most horrible part is Counterbalance & Sensei's Divining Top combined with Brainstorm, not the Terminus. The Terminus only becomes horrible if they can time it, due to the Sensei's Divining Top. I think Pithing Needle on Sensei's Divining Top ruins their game a lot better (both equally good on the play and on the draw since you can cast it before they cast Counterbalance, assuming you have it in your starting hand).

    I can't say much about Burning Tree Emissary because I haven't haven't played it in standard nor in legacy. Depending on the list it might be good. On the other hand, playing Loam Lion in the Burning Tree Emissary slot will give plays like: T1: 1 Ape, Nacatl or Loam Lion, T2: 2 of them. But T1: Ape or Nacatl, T2: Burning Tree Emissary + Tarmogoyf or Sylvan Library is cute. T1: Ape or Nacatl, T2: Burning Tree Emissary + Nacatl and Kird Ape seems fine. In the end the Burning Tree Emissary is just a 2/2. Even the Pridemage or Scavenging Ooze are way better than that. Thalia isn't possible to play with Burning Tree Emissary on turn 2. Is the acceleration worth the card and getting just an extra 2/2 out of it? I'm not sure.
    Thanks for the feedback. I'll post my results about BTE after my big tournament this weekend.

  2. #42

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Please do so, I am looking forward to hear how it performed for you.

  3. #43

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Results from my BUrning-Tree Emissary (BTE) in Zoo for Philadelphia Area Legacy Championship at Redcap's Corner:

    I went 4 wins and 2 losses in a 6 round Swiss placing 11th at the end of the Swiss rounds. Here is the list that I ran.

    Burningn-Tree emissary 4
    Goblin guide 4
    Kird ape 4
    Wild nacatl 4
    Tarmagoyf 4
    Thalia, guardian of thraben 3
    Grim lavamancer 2
    Scavenging ooze 2


    Lightning bolt 4
    Chain lightning 4
    Path to exile 4
    Sylvan library 2

    Wooded foothills 4
    Windswept Heath 4
    Arid Mesa 4
    Plateau 2
    Savahanna 1
    Taiga 2
    Mountain 1
    Forest 1


    Side board:

    Oblivian ring 3
    Leyline of sanctity 4
    Quasli pridemage 3
    Grim lavamancer 2
    Phyrexian revoker 2
    Umezawa's jitte 1


    BTE was inconsistent, but amazing when it went off. As the deck stands this current list does not support BTE very well. I think BTE is a good card, but maybe it's home is not in Zoo, at least in a time where Thalia and path/swords are likely choices to use within this archetype. In the event where more 1 mana green drops besides wild nacatl are good choices in zoo, (Maybe deathrite shaman or granger guildmage) BTE's ability will be hard to maximize. I had only 7 cards that required white mana, and cards like Lightning bolt and chain lightning are not cards that u always want to cast after I cast a BTE. I can't deny that BTE did win me a game or two, allowing me to outrace opponents with board position so I will continue to tinker with the card. I'd also like to mention that leyline of sanctity was an auto win against tendrils and I think it is the smarter card to use against the decks I've been seeing currently. Thalia, main deck was amazing as I thought she was going to be. 3 of her seemed just right. I think my next list for tournaments coming will exclude BTE and use whichever tech cards seem useful at the time. Thanks for your replies, if u wanna know details about the matches I played I'll post more later.

  4. #44

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Congrats with the result, pretty nice. Could you list all the matchups you had? I understand Leyline of Sanctity being amazin against Tendrils, but did the deck have red for Empty the Warrens too?

  5. #45

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    So here were the decks I played with the results of the match:

    Round 1 (Board in leyline, board out sylvan libary and grim)
    Burn 0-2 >.> (Non-lavamancer build, all basic lands with hell sparks and marauders)
    Game 1: As a frequent burn player myself, I knew I was in trouble. I got blown out game 1, only 1 turn away from victory, however, Fireblast made it GG.
    Game 2: I decided to board in my Leyline of sanctity, as a maverick player did against me when I played burn. I had a 4 mana no leyline hand that I mulled to 6 with, and the 6 card mul had no lands so I went down to 5. I kept my hand without a leyline, and I lost pretty bad. Maybe I should have kept my 7 or continued to mul until leyline of sanctity. Live and learn i suppose. Bad match up for me regardless.

    Round 2 (boarded in leyline and revoker boarded out grim and path)
    Tendrills (had some trops so I guess he played abrupt in board) 2-0
    Game 1: This is a bad match up for me, however, thalia outrite won me game 1 as I won the dice roll and went first and he was unable to go off turn 1 or cause me to discard.
    game 2: I boarded in Leyline, and he didn't know I had it. He boarded in natures ruin to deal with thalia, but he had nothing for Leyline in his 60 as he did not expect to encounter it.

    Round 3:
    Esper blade: 2-0 (boarded out BTE and Kird ape, Boarded in Revoker, pridemage, Jitte, and Grims)
    game 1: I won the dice roll and BTE killed it for me game 1. I flooded the board with dorks turn 2 with an amazing 7 card hand. In this game especially I was glad to have the card, unlike round 1 where it was just a 2/2 as non of my hand supported the mana ability.
    Game 2: Thalia + grimlava mancer online = B Skull Cant attack. I boarded out BTE as Pride mage needed to be in the deck. I drew all 3 of my pridemages and Jitte and that with the thalia + mancer made me win. I got really lucky this round.

    Round 4:
    Shardless bug 2-1 ((Board out goblin guide (brainstorm makes it less effective than kird IMO), board in revoker for Deathrite and grim))
    Game 1: He beat me bad! brainstorm allowed him to cascade into draw 3 cards more than once. that 1/1 flying deathtouch draw a card also provided a great deal of card advantage. I missed REBS in this match! He simply won.
    Game 2: I won, but he super misplayed allowing me to have a game 3. Grim won me the game and path to exile was amazing in this match!
    Game 3: Path to exile was removal with no downside! I think BTE did something but i dont quite remember. Thalia was effective and so was grim lavamancer. The guy I played was good, but he made a big mistake allowing a game 3 to happen and it caused him to lose to match. Baleful strix really makes it hard to keep up with the deck in the later turns.

    Round 5 Maverick with Black splash 1-2 (boarded out kirdape and guide, boarded in revoker and lava mancer and Jitte and pridemage as he played SFM)
    game 1: STUPID STUPID STUPID!!! Been months sense I played Mav and I lightning bolted a SFM with an untapped mother in play... Moving on to game 2! (On a side note, sense Zoo is off the radar, my opponent thought I was running wastelands or price of progress and he fetched for basics. This allowed my path to exile to really do well as he did not have basics after he fetched.)
    Game 2: Lava mancer and Path were really effective. Mother of ruin and deathrite are a pain to deal with and gave him the long term card advantage. Lucky for me sylvan libary came through and helped me win the game.
    Game 3: Lava mancer and revoker were big players in this match, but temporally shutting down his primary threats did not stop his lingering souls with jitte helped him to win. I did not see that card coming. It was close but he played well and lingering souls was unexpected and hard to answer. This man made top 8 and that was the game determining that.

    Round 6 2-1 punishing jund (board in revoker and grim and jitte, board out Kird and 1 guide)
    Game 1: I won and BTE was useful here. I had a stong hand with BTE and he allowed me to play BTE into scavanging ooze which was pretty useful against the punfire.
    Game 2: I lost a really close match but Bob gave him card advantage and he Nuked his own bob with pun fire to save him the game. Another match where path did not get my opponent basics.
    Game 3: He misplayed at the end of the game allowing me to win. Grim hands down gave me the win, as he was able to kill the planes walker after he made me sac a guy and it also was strong against deathrite and other guys he played with. Revoker with BTE is good, but i'm still on the fence about BTE in the deck, atleast with thalia and path in the same deck with BTE.

    I had a great time and I learned a lot. Against tendrills with a relativly rogue deck, I think people did not know what to expect when they sat across from me. This gave me an advantage where as when a player sees a rug deck, they watch out for the daze spell peirce and expect to see Rebs and submerges in the board. I felt like I had the advantage game 1, as people expect either waste or price and seen neither. Thanks for everyone's feedback and lets try to keep the dream alive. Tendrills came back from the dead and so did team America, and I feel like under the right conditions with the right board and timing, this fair deck has the options to be successful!

    Thanks for reading!
    Last edited by Strassbaw; 04-23-2013 at 09:55 PM.

  6. #46
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    How to 0-3 drop like a baller:

    Round 1: I'm not sure what my opponent is on, but given that we're playing in Madison, it's a fairly safe bet that it's combo. 7 cards is 4 lands, no 1-drops. We ship it back, as a grindy hand is not what I want vs. an unknown opponent. 6 cards is 1 land with some business. I'm not thrilled, but I figure that if I'm playing vs. combo, I need to keep it at hope to draw well; 5 is unlikely to have enough pressure to beat any combo deck. Instead, my opponent opens with a Deathrite Shaman. I make a Taiga with my fetch and Chain it. My opponent comes back with a Wasteland and I miss my second land drop. I do find the land the next turn, but he plays a Knight of the Reliquary and follows it up the next turn with another one. Unable to cope with 4 Wastelands and a clock, I scoop it up. G2, I keep a fairly reasonable hand of 3 lands and 4 spells. It's not fantastic, my 4 is Hidden Herd, Gideon's Lawkeeper, Forked Bolt and Fireblast. It's slow and crappy, but 3 lands in the opener seems reasonable considering my opponent has Wastelands and a relatively slow deck. Lawkeeper seems like it's some good against a deck that's certainly running KotR and probably running SFM --> Batterskull. This game is actually a little more interactive, but over the course of the 9 turns of the game, I draw 7 lands. My opponent sees 0 Wastelands, so I die on turn 9 having not missed a land drop and with another land still in my hand. My luck is obviously in today.

    Round 2: I get paired against Brendan (TooClosetotheSun here on the Source) from the P-Ville crew. He's on Show and Tell. He also knows that I'm on Zoo. I win the die roll (woot!) and open with a Taiga and a Nacatl. He makes an Island and ships it. Turn 2, I draw into a Hidden Herd, so I drop a Goblin Guide, crack in for 5 and then drop the Herd, which he Forces. On his turn 2, he finds Griselbrand and plays a Tomb and throws the Show and Tell out there. He puts Grisellybear out there, I drop Gideon's Lawkeeper. I don't think I've ever seen his eyes get that big before. It was very satisfying. I draw for turn and simply ship it back to him. My plan is to tap his Griselbrand prior to combat and then win the next turn. On his turn, he attempts to draw 7 with Griselbrand. Now, I have Lightning Bolt and Fireblast in hand, so I have lethal. But if he has any counter, I'm in bad shape. If he has Misdirection, I probably just lose right there as I lose my tapper and have to race. So I let it go. He drops a 3rd land and a Petal and casts Sneak Attack, going to 4. Now that he's just drawn 7 cards, I figure he definitely has the counter and only the Fireblast is lethal, so I decide to let Griselbrand hit me. If I tap GB during Beginning of Combat and he has Emrakul (not unlikely with him having just short of a dozen cards in grip), I lose on the spot. I play a Vexing Devil and resolve to take 1 more turn of Griselbeats before I go for it with the burn. End of my turn, he makes Emrakul. Sweet, I made the right call! Beginning of the next combat step, I tap the Emrakul. He then Sneaks in another to legend rule it out and Sneaks in a 3rd, sealing the deal. It sucks, but hey, sometimes combo just wins. Game 2, I again open with turn 1 Taiga, Nacatl, go. He draws for turn, makes a Tomb and a Petal and Show and Tells Emrakul in. I do not have a tapper in hand this time, so I merely get a second Wild Nacatl. His hand, after the Show and Tell, is Force of Will, Force of Will, Force of Will, Ponder. Alright, 0-2. Inauspicious start, but eff it, I'm here to play and a 4-0 run from here could still T16 and money, if the breakers fall right. We're in wing and a prayer territory already.

    Round 3: I get paired against a local guy. I'm not sure what he's on, but I figure that at 0-2, this should at least be an easier round. He wins the die roll and opens with Volcanic Island. I figure Show and Tell again, but I've got a pretty solid aggressive hand; I have 4 1 drop critters and some burn, so it's a turn 3 kill, unmolested. That's reasonable, even against SnT. I make a land and a guy. I do this for the next 3 turns. For the next 3 turns, he Bolts my guy and Wastes my land. Eventually, deciding that Wasteland/Lightning Bolt is not getting there, his deck throws up 3 straight Tarmogoyfs. With Hidden Herd in the yard (and a Sylvan Library that was Dazed), Tarmogoyf is a 5/6. 3 of them is more than I can handle. Game 2 opens with more of the kill your guy, waste your land theme, but this time he only sees 1 Tarmogoyf. I'm a little stunted on mana, thanks to a pair of Wastelands and a pair of Stifles. I'm stuck at 2, but land a Rest in Peace, making Tarmogoyf a permanent 0/1 and Nimble Mongoose into a 1/1 with shroud. He scoops it up. We've finally won a game, after 5 straight losses. Game 3 I get a little heavy on the burn and he gets a pair of Tarmogoyfs. This time, he has the Force of Will for Rest in Peace and the game devolves into a race. I burn him to 7 with him tapped out and cardless. I've got 5 on the table and am also in topdeck mode. I hope to draw Bolt/Chain/Boros Charm/Forked Bolt/Goblin Guide/Rest in Peace/Fireblast. Instead, I draw Arid Mesa. But hey, it's a nice day out, and that seems like an excellent reason to call it a day and go enjoy it.

    So despite having a list that I'm very comfortable with and fairly reasonable hands for the most part, I scrubbed and I scrubbed hard. But since it's a list that I'm very comfortable with, I'm sharing it anyway. May you all have better luck with it than I did. I'm taking the hint and brewing up either a Thopters list or going back to Bant. For now, I'm just going to focus on Standard, since it's PTQ season and I've got a list that likes me for that format.

    All in Zoo

    4 Wild Nacatl
    4 Hidden Herd
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Vexing Devil
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    1 Gideon's Lawkeeper
    1 Goldmeadow Harrier
    1 Scavenging Ooze

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    2 Forked Bolt
    2 Boros Charm
    2 Fireblast
    1 Reckless Charge

    1 Sylvan Library

    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Taiga
    3 Plateau
    1 Savannah

    Sideboard

    3 Rest in Peace
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Silence
    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    2 Sulfuric Vortex
    1 Gideon's Lawkeeper
    1 Stony Silence
    1 Krosan Grip

    Despite the fact that I never got any mileage out of it, I like Gideon's Lawkeeper/Goldmeadow Harrier (the store had a 1/1 split of the cards in foil, so that's why I split the main). It's very solid - at least, in theory - vs. Sneak and Show and it's not bad elsewhere. Tapping an equipped creature or a Batterskull is not terrible and tapping an opposing Tarmogoyf or other sizeable blocker is legit as well. It's a little more mana intensive than PtE and it won't stop something like DRS the way Path would, but DRS is far less scary for me than Emrakul or Griselbrand. Despite running essentially 5 Tarmogoyf, I only saw 1 across 3 rounds. Of course, I like getting 1-drop heavy hands; they're much faster and push the lines of what I want to be doing better, but Tarmogoyf is kind of necessary if the matchup gets to a grindy point. I think that was just a matter of luck - I don't think it needs any more Oozes to supplement the 'goyf count.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
    Plow their Mom every chance you get!

  7. #47

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Strassbaw View Post
    So here were the decks I played with the results of the match:

    Round 2 (boarded in leyline and revoker boarded out grim and path)
    Tendrills (had some trops so I guess he played abrupt in board) 2-0
    Game 1: This is a bad match up for me, however, thalia outrite won me game 1 as I won the dice roll and went first and he was unable to go off turn 1 or cause me to discard.
    game 2: I boarded in Leyline, and he didn't know I had it. He boarded in natures ruin to deal with thalia, but he had nothing for Leyline in his 60 as he did not expect to encounter it.
    First of all, nice matchreports :). What I do find odd is that the ANT player didn't have an answer for the Leylines, he should play something like Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth in thew sideboard, they always do... Still I find your sideboard answer against stormcombo decks not versatile enough. Sure, the Leyline of Sanctity is amazing against Tendrils, but what about Belcher and especially TES? They'll simply win on Empty the Warrens instead of Tendrils/Charbelcher. The Revoker is quite good however, as you can set it on Lion's Eye Diamond, but that still doesn't prevent them from going off. The benefit of Revoker is that it's a 2/1 dude that helps you in the beatdown, so that makes sense to me. Can you please enlighten your choices? I am curious.
    All in all a nice tournament, at least you now know the BTE isn;t doing it for you. What will you replace it with?

    By the way: I feel the same about Zoo being "under the radar" and people not knowing what to expect exactly and winning matches due to this. I like that :).

  8. #48

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuyira View Post
    First of all, nice matchreports :). What I do find odd is that the ANT player didn't have an answer for the Leylines, he should play something like Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth in thew sideboard, they always do... Still I find your sideboard answer against stormcombo decks not versatile enough. Sure, the Leyline of Sanctity is amazing against Tendrils, but what about Belcher and especially TES? They'll simply win on Empty the Warrens instead of Tendrils/Charbelcher. The Revoker is quite good however, as you can set it on Lion's Eye Diamond, but that still doesn't prevent them from going off. The benefit of Revoker is that it's a 2/1 dude that helps you in the beatdown, so that makes sense to me. Can you please enlighten your choices? I am curious.
    All in all a nice tournament, at least you now know the BTE isn;t doing it for you. What will you replace it with?

    By the way: I feel the same about Zoo being "under the radar" and people not knowing what to expect exactly and winning matches due to this. I like that :).


    So I based some of my sideboard choices off of the lists I have been seeing online. Adam Prosak ran a list 2 weeks before my tournament (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=54779) and this deck had only 2 answers for leylin, which was 2 chain of vapors. Abrupt decay has been common for sideboards to help beat counterbalance, thalia, etc. Empty the warrens was not in this deck either, so I felt good about the list as Adam Prosak may be a trend setter for deck building and I feel people who play MTG are often afraid to stray from the normal cookie cutter online deck builds (I've been there too). I also noticed a mav deck running Leyline of Sanctity that did well so I decided to try it. Show and Tell decks beat me bad when I was Burn, and I liked the idea of using an O-ring like I used Ensnairing Bridge when I played burn. Rebs did not seem too necessary as Thalia makes them more expensive (and against combo I will mul until I get an answer cause this build has no chance to race combo without disruption) and S&T decks run so many counter spells that it seemed futile to try to win the counter battle. Unfortunately, I did not see S&T and I can't tell you from experience that it worked out well. The revoker was effective and proactive for game 2 when I knew the types of threat I would see. The card could preemptively shut down cards like Liliana, SFM, Deathrite, Jace, Top Etc and still deal damage even before these threats hit the board. It was real cool until it died and it died every game I played it i think. I like revoker a lot with BTE but I may take it out when I take BTE out.

    From here I'm gonna play test a more generic list and see what it will take to beat counterbalance and S&T. I liked running Gaddock Teeg a lot, and I think if I run 1 of him main deck I can stand a good chance against combo game 1. I'm gonna take leyline of sanctity out for the next weekly legacy tournament and see if 4 main deck answers and 2 more side deck are enough to beat the storm and combo decks consistently. Waiting until turn 2 (thaila, gaddock, Ethersworn canonist) may be to slow especially on the draw as storm decks that I've played against often go off turn 1 or 2. These cards will be more effective against a variety of decks, but when playing a fair deck without counterspells I don't like to risk losing games automatically to certain decks. Ill post my next list before my weekly event and I'll gladly take advise from people.

    @ Kuyira - How did you like the Loxodon Smiter, and would you consider running 4 colors for a deathrite splash if Grave based decks become big again?
    @ everyone - Is Krosan grip the best answer for countertop this deck can have and has anyone done testing against shardless bug. The card advantage abilities of that deck really make it seem like a bad match up for zoo.
    @everyone - I hated losing to burn. If I keep leyline of sancitity in my deck, is it smart to board it in against burn knowing that if i draw the card it will never get play cause ill be dead by turn 4.
    Last edited by Strassbaw; 04-24-2013 at 11:06 PM.

  9. #49

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    I must add to the Stormcombo-sideboard-discussion that I live in the Netherlands. Plus the last GP I played was in France, also known for it's stormcombo players. I encounter a lot of stormcombo so I need a more versatile answer in the first place. I understand your choice for the Leyline but doubt it would be good enough in my sideboards.

    About show and tell: it's a hard matchup. I usually stick to the beatdown plan and keep hands with Nacatl/Kird Ape and preferably things like Pithing needle (for Sneak Attack/Griselbrand) but also the REB/Pyroblast. Show and Tell players have a tendancy to go off with Show and Tell against Zoo without any counter backup.

    The Loxodon Smiter is a lot better than people have given it credit for so far. Against RUG Delver (Bolt/Counter/Mongoose), any BUG list (Hymn/Liliana/Counter) and Jund (Hymn/Liliana), he's extremely good. Once you get to the midgame and your hand starts to empty, you can prioritize to playing out every other card instead of the Smiter as well, because obviously discard won't do the trick if the Smiter is the last thing you got in your hand. It's a very rare occasion where I felt a Knight of the Reliquary would have been better simply because it could have been bigger than the Smiter. Even with a Quasali Pridemage next to the Loxodon Smiter, the average Tarmogoyf as a 4/5 isn't going to block it. The thing is, unless you play utility lands, the Knight of the Reliquary doesn't add anything to the game except for being a big(ger) vanilla creature in Zoo. For the Smiter that's obviously a different story with Liliana, Hymn to Tourach and RUG Delver all being hot. It's also quite funny if your opponent tries to Daze or Force of Will the Smiter anyway as a form of reflex as they would with Knight of the Reliquary, but that'snot a really good argument

    I haven't really given Deathrite Shaman much thought, but I could see it fit. In that case I would also play a 4th Loxodon Smiter. On the other hand, a Deathrite Shaman doesn't clear the way like a Grim Lavamancer does. I'd have to playtest it before saying anything else about it. If graveyardbased decks become hot again, I'd see it come in for sure.

    About Krosan Grip: Counterbalance can still counter a Krosan Grip, but obviously not by responding to it by activating Sensei's Divining Top. They need to have their top-card on 3. And seeing as I play Loxodon Smiter in the 3 slot, they rarely have that on top ;). Counterbalance is also the reason I have 4 Quasali Pridemage maindeck.

    Burn can be a tough matchup indeed. A turn 2 Tarmogoyf and/or Scavenging Ooze are quite good. Thalia is also fine. Lightning Helix used to be great because that enabled you to race them. Personally I'm not to worried because Burn will always be around but you might not see it (or get paired against it) for months in a row.

  10. #50

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Thanks for your feedback Kuyira. The location of the tournament definitely changes the types of decks you'll see. Just from playing at my local store, I have a general idea of the types of decks people may play at that store and it makes choosing a sideboard a little easier (as some people simply can't own all the cards they want to play or they are only comfortable with a few decks).

    Skylasher is the next card I'm going to experiment with in this deck. It may provide a unexpected combat trick against delver decks, baleful strix, lingering souls and skylasher may be a good way to play around counterbalance.

    @ SpikeyMikey - Besides those matches, how has running no basic lands gone for you recently. Also, have you done any other testing with Boros charm? I like the utility the card has, however, it seems like its hard to make that card do much more than deal 4 damage for 2 in decks without reckless charge.

  11. #51
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Strassbaw View Post

    @ SpikeyMikey - Besides those matches, how has running no basic lands gone for you recently. Also, have you done any other testing with Boros charm? I like the utility the card has, however, it seems like its hard to make that card do much more than deal 4 damage for 2 in decks without reckless charge.
    The no basic land has been fine. Running basics means you can dodge Wasteland early but it's hard to set up as you need the G on turn 1 for 1-drops and you want as much R as possible in the mid game. Basics can also lead to some pretty awkward hands that you have to ship that would've been fine with a dual or a fetch. Boros Charm is generally just an instant speed one-sided Flame Rift but I'm ok with that. I like it over Lightning Helix, which is the other contender fr that spot. 33% more damage at the cost of some lifegain in a deck trying to race seems fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Borealis View Post
    Plow their Mom every chance you get!

  12. #52

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    I think I read something about zoo decks not having the effect they used to. I've played some games with different builds, and studied some tournament reports, and I think I know what is going on. It doesn't look like big zoo or punishing zoo are having any trouble, but the decks that resemble goyf sligh seem to be.

    Don't get me wrong any of the zoo builds have the capability of winning big tournaments, I think the number of one drops is almost holding back some decks because they can be shut down by a chalice of the void. It could possibly be the number of spell pierces being played and the decks reach is effected. New creatures in the format also increase the complexity of many matches. Deathrite Shaman and scavenging ooze are good examples. In many situations I have found that a bayou and two lingering souls is enough to overcome most adverse board threats, or to just spread out damage. Quite a few decks can go one for one with zoo, so the unexpected lingering souls can be too much.

    The format may demand versatility over this type of speed right now. It can be hard to tell unless many people have explored why it has trouble. Adding speed on top of what it already had with cards like vexing devil or upping the burn/removal spells doesn't really seem to do it for me either. Burn seems to do that better and on the other hand big and punishing zoo seem to be effective. I am going to try out some different builds, and when I find what seems to be working I will post a list.

  13. #53

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    I've tested this deck, and it performed pretty well. I havn't had a chance to play against maverick or many of the decks to beat, but I think this deck would be something I would play in a tournament. I shut out merfolk, and beat a couple other decks I cannot remember. One was an agro based strategy using deathrite shamans. The key is definitely not to dump your burn spells or all of your creatures at once. I just play it like I read sligh is supposed to be played. Use the burn to clear out creatures, so you can attack, or to give you extra reach near the end. The grim lavamancer has proved to be valuable.

    I am not fond of the big or punishing zoo, but I respect their effectiveness. Let me know what you think, or if there are other options that could improve this strategy.



    // Lands
    1 Savannah
    3 Wasteland
    3 Taiga
    1 Bayou
    3 Plateau
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Arid Mesa
    1 Karakas
    1 Forest

    // Creatures
    3 Tarmogoyf
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Wild Nacatl
    2 Knight of the Reliquary
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    3 Kird Ape
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    // Spells
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    2 Lingering Souls
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Price of Progress
    2 Rift Bolt
    2 Searing Blaze
    3 Boros Charm

    // Sideboard
    SB: 2 Pyroblast
    SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
    SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 1 Krosan Grip
    SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 3 Pithing Needle

  14. #54

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    After play testing many games with the previous deck I have identified some problems. The mana base was not working out, and some of the spells were proving inadequate. The lingering souls has worked like a charm though. I cut the spells that were not proving versatile enough, and I replaced them with cards that I think may make the difference.

    I am always working with zoo decks, but I am rarely satisfied with how they perform. I am going to make it a goal to smooth out my version of zoo.

    // Lands
    3 Savannah
    2 Wasteland
    3 Taiga
    1 Bayou
    3 Plateau
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Arid Mesa
    1 Plains

    // Creatures
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    4 Wild Nacatl
    2 Knight of the Reliquary
    4 Goblin Guide
    1 Serra Avenger
    4 Stoneforge Mystic

    // Spells
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    2 Lingering Souls
    3 Boros Charm
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Batterskull
    3 Path to Exile

    // Sideboard
    SB: 2 Pyroblast
    SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 2 Krosan Grip
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 3 Pithing Needle
    SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
    SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice

  15. #55

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    The version with stoneforge mystic went 2-1 against w/b miracles or w/b control. Game three went long and won through a combination of equipment, pithing needle(jace on 11), and krosan grips. I think every good card in there deck was played including three terminus, a supreme verdict, numberous vendillion cliques and snapcaster mages with a karakas and about anything else you can think of.

    I was happy with the performance in this matchup. Now I will have to play against esper stoneblade. That deck is normally much harder for the decks I make.

  16. #56

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by jtos84 View Post
    I think I read something about zoo decks not having the effect they used to. I've played some games with different builds, and studied some tournament reports, and I think I know what is going on. It doesn't look like big zoo or punishing zoo are having any trouble, but the decks that resemble goyf sligh seem to be.

    Don't get me wrong any of the zoo builds have the capability of winning big tournaments, I think the number of one drops is almost holding back some decks because they can be shut down by a chalice of the void. It could possibly be the number of spell pierces being played and the decks reach is effected. New creatures in the format also increase the complexity of many matches. Deathrite Shaman and scavenging ooze are good examples. In many situations I have found that a bayou and two lingering souls is enough to overcome most adverse board threats, or to just spread out damage. Quite a few decks can go one for one with zoo, so the unexpected lingering souls can be too much.

    The format may demand versatility over this type of speed right now. It can be hard to tell unless many people have explored why it has trouble. Adding speed on top of what it already had with cards like vexing devil or upping the burn/removal spells doesn't really seem to do it for me either. Burn seems to do that better and on the other hand big and punishing zoo seem to be effective. I am going to try out some different builds, and when I find what seems to be working I will post a list.
    First I'd like to thank you JtOs84 for the reports. I think your ideas are interesting, and I like your observations about the success of the Zoo archetype. I see you like lingering souls and I think thats a cool card to use, however, I'm worried about playing that card with Thalia. 4 mana may be hard to get in the event a thalia is on the board and lingering is in hand. The next thing I seen you do is play with a few wastelands. I'm thinking about running 2 wasteland with 2 knights in a 21 mana build. How do u feel the 21 land build and do u feel lingering souls is still effective without SFM or Jitte Main deck?

    My next idea comes from a curiosity in running 4 color to answer most decks I have seen in this format. I recently ran a Zoo list similar to my old list posted above and didn't do very well. I felt like too many matchups were not in my favor, and decks like maverick and combo are prevalent in my area (which has been a bad matchup for me recently). Here is a list I am going to Proxie and test out soon:

    4 Wild Nacatl
    4 Tarmagoyf
    4 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Thalia
    2 knight of the reliquary
    1 Gaddock Teeg

    4 lightning bolt
    4 path to exile
    3 Chain lightning
    2 abrupt decay
    2 sylvan library
    2 lingering souls

    4 wind swept heath
    4 arid mesa
    4 wooded foothills
    2 taiga
    2 plateau
    1 Savannah
    1 Bayou
    1 Badlands
    2 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    2 abrupt decay
    2 oblivian ring
    2 Rebs
    4 Thought seize
    2 sulfuric vortex
    1 Jitte
    2 searing blaze


    This list is very untested, and unfortunately i'm 2 DRS, 1 bayou, and 2 thoughtseize short to run it without proxie. I think this deck has answers to almost every deck I can think of in the meta. I don't know how much conflict will occur between Grim, DRS and Gofy and the number of Grims and DRS may change with play test. Counter balance has been an auto loss for me, and abrupt decay seems to be the best answer for that and CotV decks. I'm very interested in play testing thoughtseize in this deck against combo as combo is usually the worst matchup for this deck.

    I'll keep people posted about its performance. I've seen a handful of 4 color decks (mainly with shardless agent though) do well. The main reasons I came up with this list was cause I wanted to take many creatures out of Zoo that has zero interaction capability and replace these cards with other cards that can change a game by themselves (Like abrupt decay & Deathrite). I also went this way with the deck to avoid building a list that was practically a maverick list as taking out the fast creatures makes it tempting to run Green sun zyneth and dryad arbor.

    Feedback is appreciated. I may just end up buying the cards to complete this deck, so telling me this deck is a failure ahead of time may save me a lot of money.

    Thanks for reading and thanks for posting ideas. Stay creative!


    Ps. I'm still tinkering with Burning-Tree Emissary, but in a different deck with only a white splash and 2 Rancors to help utilize that green mana it produces. I had to replace Path to Exile with seal of fire as this card has great synergy with Grim Lavamancer and BTE.

  17. #57

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    The second list I posted seems to fix the issues I was having with the first list. Thalia is not as effective in this deck as it is in other decks with more lock pieces. Kird ape and loam lion are hard to play over stoneforge. They still place well in big tournaments, but I am not having as much success with them as I used to. If you bought the deck, and you were not able to win with it you would not be at a loss because the cards play well in other decks or similar builds.

  18. #58

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Someone asked me if I liked four color zoo, and I was like not really. I got to thinking about the possibilities that are now available, and I decided to give a deck a try. It has performed extremely well so far and is extremely versatile. I played against burn and goblins so far. I don't really want to play it too much because I may run this in a tournament tomorrow. Let me know what you think about it.

    Just an update on games. I lost 1-2 to r/u/b tendrils storm. I had the game next turn though. After that I beat w/u fish 2-1.

    G/B/W/R Zoo

    // Lands
    3 Savannah
    3 Taiga
    1 Plateau
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Windswept Heath
    2 Wasteland
    2 Arid Mesa
    2 Wooded Foothills
    3 Badlands

    // Creatures
    3 Tarmogoyf
    1 Knight of the Reliquary
    1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Dark Confidant
    3 Goblin Guide
    4 Wild Nacatl
    3 Deathrite Shaman

    // Spells
    3 Chain Lightning
    1 Abrupt Decay
    2 Lingering Souls
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Path to Exile

    // Sideboard
    SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 2 Pithing Needle
    SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
    SB: 1 Krosan Grip
    SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
    SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
    SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
    Last edited by jtos84; 05-14-2013 at 09:53 AM.

  19. #59
    hai 2 u
    zulander's Avatar
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Here's a nice article with some interesting card choices, specifically experiment one. I think it's a better card than apes 5-8.

    http://www.starcitygames.com/article...z-Brewing.html

    Also I think Boros Charm is better than the Ghor-Clan guy. I do think Thalia belongs though.
    #mtgfinance follow on twitter: @mtgStaples


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  20. #60

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    The deck certainly has some appeal, especially the turn 2 BTE draws create a lot of pressure. In testing yesterday I was flooding too often, can someone else confirm this?

    Boros Charm definitely has to be considered, especially since you're weak to mass removal.

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