You want someone else to confirm that you were flooding?
I am pretty sure he means if someone else is mana-flooding with the same Zoo/BTE list from Karsten. Although I haven't tested it yet, I'd go with 18 or 19 lands tops if there are no 3-drops in the maindeck.
About Ghor-clan Rampager vs Boros Charm while playing Thalia: it doesn't make sense to me to use Boros Charm since it's anti-synergistic. The Ghor-clam Rampager acts as semi-removal as well. For racing it would be pretty much similar damage. The Boros Charm is cute against Engineered Explosives/Supreme Verdict/Pernicious Deed, but those are cards you're trying to race anyway.
I think ghor clan opens you up to more blowouts (negative) though. Not necessarily saying that boros charm is better though.Originally Posted by Kuyira
After playing for a while with many different decks I think I see what the problem with zoo is. It starts with the mana base and then carries over to the overall strategy. All non-basics prevent the deck from running pop and at the same time make it vulnerable to it. The more basics the deck runs the worse it generally performs. The deck that made the top eight at worlds last year was successful because it utilized wasteland and thalia. It also ran granger guildmage, but I think the meta game has become more complex since then.
The zoo decks that are still successful either act as somewhat of a mana denial deck, or they have a focused strategy like punishing fire. Other than those strategies the deck will just appear as random creatures that may be successful if the sligh strategy of using removal to ensure your creatures get through is implemented. The closest thing to zoo that seems like zoo to me would be maverick. I don't think terminus helps the situation either even though it doesn't see as much play.
I have been playing boros landfall for a while now. I played that deck probably when it first came out. To me it is very similar to zoo, but it offers a different type of flexibility. It has a lot of burn that can either remove creatures, or finish the opponent. I recently got seventh place in a 22 man tournament. I ended up losing in game three to tin fins. I was not familiar with the deck, so I did not board in reb to have a chance with the show and tells that get boarded in. I use a list with keldon marauders, steppe lynx, grim lavamancer, goblin guide, and sometimes a couple vexing devil. The rest is like a burn zoo hybrid.
This deck is good because the creatures are quick enough to deal enough damage to make burn an option to finish, or you can set up the win with the magma jets. Many players will want to board in leyline of sanctity, but the creatures in this deck can get around that. This deck can also take on pretty much any other deck in the format. It is a solid choice for the meta if you are looking for something that plays like zoo decks used to.
Here is some proof that boros landfall is good for the meta game. Someone got 3rd place in a 134 man tournament with my boros list that I made about six months ago. It is akward to say the least. I made it after a five year break from magic. It was designed to grind out a control meta. The boros landfall is good for the same reasons just through different methods.
Dear jtos84,
Even though I agree with you, I think you shouldn't post in here about a Boros Landfall defk as this is still the Zoo thread.
Anyway! Even though this thread seems pretty empty, I'd like to post my list. I have developed a blue list which is pretty similar to Rafael Garcias list:
Zoo RUWG
Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
Other spells
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
2 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
Lands
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
Sideboard
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
CONSIDERING:
Phyrexian metamorph
Geist of saint traft
Daze in the side
Ethersworn Canonist in the side
Okay, so here are my thoughts: The deck plays really well in my meta, which is full of Delver and any kinds of Stoneforge decks. I have approximately as much removal MB as they have creatures and with GSZ and Brainstorm to filter through the deck I have some solid answers to most decks. The War Monk is in there because of the Shock Lands. Those are in there as a cheap substitute for the actual duals but I plan on saving some money for them. The deck itself plays pretty similar to normal Big Zoo. Whenever I see a wasteland i somehow try to play around it by fetching for basics and so on. The only thing I have missed is: Punishing Fire engine. I'm starting to consider it as more and more people play decks with deathrite, LS and bob.
No Tarmogoyfs because a) they are expensive. Don't get me wrong, they are really good but in my opinion 50 bucks for a vanilla beater is way too much
and b) I wanted to play interactively, with solid MD answers to most decks I'm used to see
Suggestions are welcome
Maze of Ith seems bad... Why would you ever want that? Also if you can get a goyf for 50 bucks... Lemme know. Ill buy at that price about a thousand times over.
Thanks for the Feedback. Maze was quite nice against UBx Control with 2-3 Finishers, but I'll probably switch it with Karakas. Oh and by the way, a Goyf is 50€ at my local shop. You probably thought about dollars.
"Bucks" as slang for "money" is an originally American thing. Hence the assumption that "bucks" as a denomination refers to the American dollar.
How often does Delver actually flip for you? Have you considered Deathrite Shaman?
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Thanks, I didn't know that. I always thought it's just an international slang word for money.
Well, the Delver flips probably every 2nd turn since I have Braistorm to set it up.
Deathrite Shaman is a really nice card but since I only have acess to green, it gets a little worse. I know removing a creature against Reanimator or Dredge but it is quite hindering that you can obly activate this once per turn. If I need some more Graveyard hate because of a meta shift I am going to replace the Hierarchs with Shamans. If I'll do so, then I'll put in a Dual with black for the 3rd ability but in my current, Wasteland-full, meta splashing for a 5th color just seems too inconsistent.
Martin I didn't post a boros list in here, but the lists I am talking about are employing the same strategy you are attempting to recreate in a more effective way. Your brainstorms should probably be magma jet. What makes a list zoo? Green?
At first, thanks for replying. You compare Brainstorm with Magma jet, although Brainstorm is lengths better. I know that's not your point but I actually don't want to play some sligh deck. I wanna play Zoo in all shapes and forms. This conflicts with your question, I know. That's a really good question, actually, and I am not in the place to answer it. I also don't know who might be in that place. Probably somebody who played Zoo from the start, when it was RG beatz.
I'm not saying zoo isn't playable, but I was just trying to give the players experiencing certain shortfalls an avenue to play a similar strategy. Zoo decks, and zoo decks like yours are good, but sometimes shifts in the meta game make them seem difficult to pilot. It is possible a s/b heavy with reb's and pyros would make zoo a better performer, but I have not been play testing it lately.
I think KOTR and a single MD karakas are necessary in Zoo due to show and tell. No matter which way you cut it, show and tell is faster by at least 1 turn than us. REB and pyroblast help, but Knight really increases your chance of winning that match. Also, it helps to have a topdeck like knight when the game goes a little longer. I have tested zoo many times vs miracles and stoneblade, and if you get swept/STP snapcastered too many times knight is a much better topdeck than loam lion or some other additional 1 drop. Your good matchups are delver (pretty much impossible to lose unless you get wastelanded/stifled out of the game), BUG, Deathblade, and any other fair deck really. Jund is about 50/50.
I play blue zoo alot here is my favorite version
4 scalding tarn
3 wooded foothills
2 misty rain forest
1 flooded strand
2 volcanic island
2 tropical island
1 taiga
1 tundra
1 plateau
1 savannah
1 badlands
4 force of will
3 daze
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 lightning bolt
3 chain lighting
4 tribal flames
4 delver of secrets
4 wild nacalt
4 tarmogoyf
3 grim lavamancer
Sb
3 sulfuric vortex
2 krosan grip
2 meddling mage
2 ethersworn canist
3 path(or submerge)
3 tormods crypt
It is very RUG like but obv with no mana denial. It is usually not as good as RUG (though it is better against certian decks like tribal). It is def a way to dust off the nacatls while still being competive.
IMO this just looks like a very bad and inconsistent version of RUG. Force of Will is totally misplaced as you don't have enough blue cards in your deck to pitch into it. Daze seems like a bad idea because not every land you have is an Island. RUG plays 12 lands that can make mana(Wastelands count too), of which 8 are Islands. You have 9 Lands that can make mana, of which only 5 are part Island. If you really wanna play a list similar to this, then you should probably play RUG Delver IMO.
actually RUG only plays 6 blue lands. three of each volcanic and tropical island.
Sorry, my bad. But they can use every land that's not a wasteland for Daze. That's my point.
I have played both RUG, my list and a traditional Naya Zoo list. The mana is not relaly particuallry bad. Since the deck ahs not wasteland it has the some number of islands (counting things that can fetch island as islands) as RUG (and actually more than some list at 15) The other lands can be though of a filling in the wasteland slots of rug. FOW is fine with 19 blue cards. The blue count can be bolstered by playing fire//ice if desired (This set up runs 4 fire//ice 4 chain lighting 4 bolt and cuts the badlands). All in all it is mostly a worse version of RUG but not that much worse and definatly not stricly worse. I play it mainly becasue I love turnign wild nactals sideways and this deck is more viable than Naya zoo atm. I have piloted to some ok finishes in SCG events (a top 32, and 33rd) the rest of my appearances were 5-4
I'm stepping out of my comfort zone a bit by playing this deck (I have mostly been playing Storm and Deathblade recently), but Zoo can be powerful in the right metagame. I enjoy beating "good" players with this deck. Here is my current list:
4 Experiment One
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
3 Kird Ape
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thalia
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Wasteland
SB
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Angel of Despair
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
I feel pretty bad about running such a janky SB, but hey, it's Zoo. I feel really good about playing against any fair deck, so the SB needs to be full of dumb hate.
Anyways... There it is. I'm going to continue testing it, and I might play it in a local event soon.
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