Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Last edited by Nihil Credo; 11-24-2010 at 03:29 PM.
\"Though I haven\'t meet anyone that calls Extended Type 1.x. If someone did I would look at them funny and assume they took the tiny bus to Stupidtown.\" - Ewokslayer
\"A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor\'s cat?\" - EwokSlayer again
HappyGilmore: Someone has a stick up their ass.
Peter Rotten: Yup, me. BTW, \"someone\" is singular. \"Their\" is plural. A singular an
The former discussion is here. Please read it before posting here.
YES!!! Finally UG Madness is in the LMF! This has been a long time in coming.
Over Thanksgiving Weekend I went home and was able to play a tournament at the Lucky Frog for Legacy. I was very disapointed to find that everyone, well almost everyone was down in Richmond or something playing for a Black Lotus. The attendance was only 13 players :( . I played UG Madness to third, which I admit, is nothing to brag about. However I was able to face many of the decks harder matchups, mainly Goblin sligh(there were three of them). It was a 6 round tournament and the only reason this happened is because someone thought it would be a good idea to make T8 instead of T4 :angry: . My record was 40 over all. Loosing to a very interesting version of dump truck, and Rav Affinity.
I basically played the list mentioned above(-1 Naturalize +1 Deep) but had a slightly different SB:
2 Daze
2 Truth
2 Ground Seal
1 Masticore
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
3 Chill
3 Stifle
1 Naturalize
The sword was Mainly useless but the Masticore raped all. I went 3:0 against the Goblin Sligh decks I faced. Two decks, one I faced twice. First game they smashed face but second and third I came back for the win(this was true each time). Strangely every second game I won with the Masticore, go figure.
I got knocked out if the semi-finals by Affinity.
After some more playtesting I began to dislike the bouncers more and more. But I still felt that these spots needed to be filled with a creature. From the 5 meta spots in garv's list:
2 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Naturalize
I came up with this:
2 Nimble Mongoose
3 Naturalize
I was greatly suprized by their efficiency. So far they have performed superbly.
My current SB:
2 Daze
1 Masticore
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Energy Flux or B2B (depending on meta)
3 Stifle
3 Chill
1 Deep Analysis
2 Ground Seal
Masticore may come out, but since I keep seeing "him" so much I figure what the hell. He is doing his job.
Happy Gilmore
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
NO!
NO!
Nimble Mongoose does not belong in the deck whatsoever. Waterfront Bouncer is AMAZING. So amaing in fact, that I think I'm going up to 3 in the main deck in place of a Truth. Bouncers provide a lock agaisnt aggro decks. Also, Bouncer is an outlet, Mongoose is not. Mongoose does NOTHING but beat, whereas every other card in the deck helps the Madness mechanic with the sole exceptions of Brainstorm.
Again:
NO!
[quote:sig_uid=\"GreenMycon\"]NEVER underestimate Carebears. Those things are cuddley, yes, but undoubtedly vicious!!
But in all seriousness, you can over analyze that. Carebears, the beasts that really can\'t do much, they\'re cuddley, at best, and just can\'t get anything done without meddling. It really portrays the human aspect in that they are non-magical beasts and use other methods of getting things done.[/quote:sig_uid]
Quoted for truth.
I agree with ecplitic, Waterfront Bouncer is a superb creature in madness. It functions as an outlet(albeit a slow one), creature removal and an out against the spore frog lock(this is actually really important). The only downside to bouncer is that he is slow compared to the rest of the deck and his activation cost partially negates the madness mechanic. i also agree that Nimble Mongoose has no place in madness. Madness actually takes quite a while to get threshold making nimble mongoose a bad early game creature in comparison to Basking Rootwalla.
In high school I was ballin, but I kept getting kicked out because I wouldn't wear a shirt.
I think maybe I jumped the gun on this one. What I found is that it competes too much with the other first turn plays. And as you guys said it takes a while to get to threshold.Posted: Dec. 05 2004,1:33
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Quote (Eclipt1c @ Dec. 05 2004,12:04)
NO!
NO!
Nimble Mongoose does not belong in the deck whatsoever. Waterfront Bouncer is AMAZING. So amaing in fact, that I think I'm going up to 3 in the main deck in place of a Truth. Bouncers provide a lock agaisnt aggro decks. Also, Bouncer is an outlet, Mongoose is not. Mongoose does NOTHING but beat, whereas every other card in the deck helps the Madness mechanic with the sole exceptions of Brainstorm.
Again:
NO!
Quoted for truth.
I agree with ecplitic, Waterfront Bouncer is a superb creature in madness. It functions as an outlet(albeit a bad one), creature removal and an out against the spore frog lock(this is actually really important). The only downside to bouncer is that he is painfully slow compared to the rest of the deck and his activation cost partially negates the madness mechanic. i also agree that Nimble Mongoose has no place in madness. Madness actually takes quite a while to get threshold making nimble mongoose a bad early game creature in comparison to Basking Rootwalla.
My bad, I don't think I would have even considered him if I hadn't faced those three goblin sligh decks on thanksgiving. As far as having three Waterfront Bouncers....Bad Bad idea, they really are a suboptimal madness outlet. I am just going back to the original list of 2 Boucer 3 Naturalize, with one more in the board.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
I don't use them as an agressive madness outlet. I use them to bog down their creatures while I beat with a couple flying Wurms. I always feel like I want one, and since they're so vulnerable, and better than Echoing Truth, I've decided to include a third. Naturalize just isn't that great here, and to be honest, I haven't been really pleased with Echoing Truth, so I may go back to Stifle or something.As far as having three Waterfront Bouncers....Bad Bad idea, they really are a suboptimal madness outlet.
[quote:sig_uid=\"GreenMycon\"]NEVER underestimate Carebears. Those things are cuddley, yes, but undoubtedly vicious!!
But in all seriousness, you can over analyze that. Carebears, the beasts that really can\'t do much, they\'re cuddley, at best, and just can\'t get anything done without meddling. It really portrays the human aspect in that they are non-magical beasts and use other methods of getting things done.[/quote:sig_uid]
I used to be a huge advocate of Stifle in Madness, but through hours of testing it has come to my attention that Naturalize is amazing in madness. With the exception of Pernicious Deed and saclands Naturalize is a far more effective answer to madness's biggest fears such as Isochron Scepter, Veldaken Shackles, Nevinyrral's Disk, Crucible of Worlds and randomness like Moat.
In high school I was ballin, but I kept getting kicked out because I wouldn't wear a shirt.
I think the Welder Survival matchup needs to be looked at, as the deck consistently beats Madness. The deck has Triskelion, Spore Frog, Sharpshooter, Witness, Genesis, Pentavus and post sideboard it has Duplicant and FTK. I was play testing with CavernNinja and it seemed that I could beat him the majority of the time pre-sideboard, but after he sided in Spore Frog and the others in (Spore Frog was not maindecked at the time, but now is) he beat me consistently. The deck just has too many bombs to counter and can weld in a Mindslaver, Phyrexian Colossus, Pentavus, Triskelion, or a Duplicant after stalling with Frog lock and just beat the hell out of Madness.
Naturalize doesn't really do much because of Genesis and the fact that he can just start hardcasting the cards via Rofellos.
Suggestions?
[quote:sig_uid=\"GreenMycon\"]NEVER underestimate Carebears. Those things are cuddley, yes, but undoubtedly vicious!!
But in all seriousness, you can over analyze that. Carebears, the beasts that really can\'t do much, they\'re cuddley, at best, and just can\'t get anything done without meddling. It really portrays the human aspect in that they are non-magical beasts and use other methods of getting things done.[/quote:sig_uid]
This is where the SB stifles come in handy. As I pointed out when I discussed the survival matchup, when you lose to the deck, you lose because of spore frog. If it is prevelant in your meta maybe add some ground seals SB, or just do what I do, and side in 3x stifle, 3x echoing truth and the 4th naturalize... In this case I would probably remove a wonder, 2 D.A, a rootwalla, an aquamoeba, and 2x whatever to side all of that in. This is a tough matchup for you, but if you deal with the stupid frog, you should be ok... mindslaver hurts too, though, especially if you have a madness outlet on the board.
\"Though I haven\'t meet anyone that calls Extended Type 1.x. If someone did I would look at them funny and assume they took the tiny bus to Stupidtown.\" - Ewokslayer
\"A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor\'s cat?\" - EwokSlayer again
HappyGilmore: Someone has a stick up their ass.
Peter Rotten: Yup, me. BTW, \"someone\" is singular. \"Their\" is plural. A singular an
Which is why Ground Seal is so rediculously good. It helps in three of your hardest matchups: RG Survival, ATS, and Welder Survival. With 3 Naturalize, 3 Stifle, 2 Ground Seal and a hand full of counterspells where is your problem?
Either way I think you will find that Ground Seal is a great solution. I would definitly take them over Echoing truth in the SB. Replacing two with Ground Seals, and the other with a third bouncer.
I would like to keep Echoing Truth in the board atleast as 2 off, but I can't find room. What could be cut?
Seams to me that you find the bounce affect to be more useful than its main purpose, which it to get your madness creatures on the board. What the heck is a non agressive madness outlet anyway?I don't use them as an agressive madness outlet. I use them to bog down their creatures while I beat with a couple flying Wurms.
As said before naturalize is amazing mainboard. And I am suprized that you don't run stifles in the board. What are you running in their spot?Naturalize just isn't that great here, and to be honest, I haven't been really pleased with Echoing Truth, so I may go back to Stifle or something.
Note: curious, not accusing or anything
And Humility, dont forget Humility. :angry:I used to be a huge advocate of Stifle in Madness, but through hours of testing it has come to my attention that Naturalize is amazing in madness. With the exception of Pernicious Deed and saclands Naturalize is a far more effective answer to madness's biggest fears such as Isochron Scepter, Veldaken Shackles, Nevinyrral's Disk, Crucible of Worlds and randomness like Moat.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
From my point of view I really don't fear Ground Seal much, if anything Crypt is more threatening because it will actually get rid of my graveyard instead of just making me stumble a bit to find a Zealot or Monkey. The other thing that Ground Seal really doesn't do is shut off Squee and Anger, without Anger the deck is much more vulnerable and thus Crypt is a much better solution to the graveyard problem.
Two posts deleted. Keep discussion focused on UG Madness and not other decks.
Ground Seal is in no way rediculously good in Madness, but I'll get to that in a minute. RG I consider to be the best of the best of the Survival matchups, Welder just has too many must counter bombs that won't be attacking, and ATS has Walls.Which is why Ground Seal is so rediculously good. It helps in three of your hardest matchups: RG Survival, ATS, and Welder Survival. With 3 Naturalize, 3 Stifle, 2 Ground Seal and a hand full of counterspells where is your problem?
It "seams" to me that you are greatly underestimating the bounce "affect" yourself. As I said, it can single-handedly lock down aggro while you beat with one or two flying Wurms. Also, Bouncer's main purpose is NOT to put Madness creatures on the board, because it's not very effective at that, it's no better at Madness-ing out creatures than Survival is. Also, a non-aggressive Madness outlet would be a control outlet obviously.Seams to me that you find the bounce affect to be more useful than its main purpose, which it to get your madness creatures on the board. What the heck is a non agressive madness outlet anyway?
My mistake here that I didn't specify. I do run Stifles sideboard. I'll be trying 2 Naturalizes "mainboard" shortly, though I'm not completely sure on their effectiveness in my meta.As said before naturalize is amazing mainboard. And I am suprized that you don't run stifles in the board. What are you running in their spot?
Now, to Ground Seal. I don't like Ground Seal at all in Madness. It costs 2 mana, which is relatively high for what it actually accomplishes. On turn two I'd rather be casting an outlet. Also, as Ninja said, Ground Seal doesn't stop Anger or Squee, which are integral to Survival's abuse. Crypt is the better choice in this case, but perhaps Phyrexian Furnace is better in this case. Beyond the Survival matchup; however, Crypt still seems better than Ground Seal in the mirror. Ground Seal does jack agaisnt Wonder and Deep Analysis. Phyrexian Furnace will be getting some testing, but its slow speed worries me already about its usefulness.
[quote:sig_uid=\"GreenMycon\"]NEVER underestimate Carebears. Those things are cuddley, yes, but undoubtedly vicious!!
But in all seriousness, you can over analyze that. Carebears, the beasts that really can\'t do much, they\'re cuddley, at best, and just can\'t get anything done without meddling. It really portrays the human aspect in that they are non-magical beasts and use other methods of getting things done.[/quote:sig_uid]
Has anyone ever considerd Attunement in U/G Madness? Seems likes an obvious choice to me. It works sort of like a Bazzar of Bagdad. It is of course not as good , because you have to re-cast it. Just a thought.
Nobody has played Bazaar in the old version of UG, so why would we play the budget version?
Attunement is not so hot when you are trying to play the control deck, the only turn you ever want to tap out is turn 2 to play a madness outlet, so after that the only time you would want to play Attunement is turn 4 or 5 which just seems too late to be effective, especially since you aren't using it until the next turn. As a madness outlet I have found Attunement to be subpar, and as a drawing engine it is really only good if you really need to dig for multiple turns. Attunement's lack of card advantage in the deck can also spell trouble, remember this is a control deck.
I've tested it before, and it's like what Ninja said. It's too cumbersome and expensive. Madness does not want any card that FORCES you to discard a card, it wants to discard what cards it wants to at all times. Cards like Attunement and Careful Study can eliminate the card advantage that Madness decks try to abuse.
Remember there are only 12 cards that have Madness in the deck. Only 4 of those 12 are free, cards like this are bad in Madness because it forces you to empty part of you hand, this means dumping cards because you didn't draw a Madness card, or just don't want to play one, or you have to drop a Madness creature simply because you can't afford the card disadvantage. Attunement is better than Careful Study in the fact that it's instant speed. But is infintely worse in the fact that it's guaranteed card disadvantage. If Careful Study was an instant it might be played because you could get some card advantage off of it and use it when you want, and at worst it'd be card parity.
As far as I see it, no card that forces the player to discard a card should be used in Madness (Attunement, Bazaar, Careful Study, Masticore, etc.).
[quote:sig_uid=\"GreenMycon\"]NEVER underestimate Carebears. Those things are cuddley, yes, but undoubtedly vicious!!
But in all seriousness, you can over analyze that. Carebears, the beasts that really can\'t do much, they\'re cuddley, at best, and just can\'t get anything done without meddling. It really portrays the human aspect in that they are non-magical beasts and use other methods of getting things done.[/quote:sig_uid]
With the increase in aggro decks, and more importantly, Survival decks, is Gilded Drake worth considering in the maindeck or sideboard? My build was running one maindeck Drake with two in the sideboard to deal with annoying creatures in the format like Warchiefs and Tradewinds and such, and they worked with moderate success. I also ran two main deck Waterfront Bouncers, which served a similar purpose as the Drakes and had inherent synergy with them.
Proud member of Team Unicorn (unicorns are fucking rad.)
Fuck Voldermort. Nobody kills unicorns, except other, bigger unicorns.
You haven't heard the last of the Scrabs.
That seems rather slow and cumbersome. Also, it has inherent disynergy with Wonder by giving them a flying blocker. But these are all just first impressions, and maybe some testing is warranted.
[quote:sig_uid=\"GreenMycon\"]NEVER underestimate Carebears. Those things are cuddley, yes, but undoubtedly vicious!!
But in all seriousness, you can over analyze that. Carebears, the beasts that really can\'t do much, they\'re cuddley, at best, and just can\'t get anything done without meddling. It really portrays the human aspect in that they are non-magical beasts and use other methods of getting things done.[/quote:sig_uid]
It seems to me that the idea here is to take the basic T1 deck, remove Recall, Timewalk, and the artifact mana, and replace them with something (Oh yeah, and take out that random 1-of Gush). Obviously the metagame is a little bit different, but this deck should remain essentially the same in my opinion. It has to get a little more land heavy and doesn't have to run Null Rod anymore, but it can fit Waterfront Bouncers or can afford to run a couple of Dazes.
Personally, I would never play less than 2 Wonders. Without Intuition, you can't expect to get them enough, and Intuition isn't good enough without Roar, and Roar is too slow (lots of Ands there).
As for the little Goose that could, he only ever went in the deck when it was playing Upheaval so it could drop two 3/3 beaters after the 'heav for a quick win.
On a sidenote, whatever happened to G/W Madness? I guess it only really played in the Standard environment, but do you think it could survive in the T1.5 environment? It's just so fun to phase out a Brushhopper before a big wrath. If you were to splash white, is he worth seeing play? A 3/4 is a clock to be reckoned with...
Also, in Extended I played around with Rancor a little. It's nice to have a Trampling Mongrel every now and then. That being said, does Berserk have a place in this deck? I know these changes would be switching the deck more towards aggro, but would that be a horrible thing? I'm honestly not sure.
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