[DTB] UG Survival / Vengevine (formerly UG Madness)

[Happy Gilmore]

It seems to me that the idea here is to take the basic T1 deck, remove Recall, Timewalk, and the artifact mana, and replace them with something (Oh yeah, and take out that random 1-of Gush). Obviously the metagame is a little bit different, but this deck should remain essentially the same in my opinion. It has to get a little more land heavy and doesn't have to run Null Rod anymore, but it can fit Waterfront Bouncers or can afford to run a couple of Dazes.

Personally, I would never play less than 2 Wonders. Without Intuition, you can't expect to get them enough, and Intuition isn't good enough without Roar, and Roar is too slow (lots of Ands there).

As for the little Goose that could, he only ever went in the deck when it was playing Upheaval so it could drop two 3/3 beaters after the 'heav for a quick win.

On a sidenote, whatever happened to G/W Madness? I guess it only really played in the Standard environment, but do you think it could survive in the T1.5 environment? It's just so fun to phase out a Brushhopper before a big wrath. If you were to splash white, is he worth seeing play? A 3/4 is a clock to be reckoned with...

Also, in Extended I played around with Rancor a little. It's nice to have a Trampling Mongrel every now and then. That being said, does Berserk have a place in this deck? I know these changes would be switching the deck more towards aggro, but would that be a horrible thing? I'm honestly not sure.

Contrary to popular belief the 1.5 build (i.e. Legacy) has no correlation between the other formats, it revolves around a completely different strategy. The type 1 build is an adaptation of the 1.5 build not the other way around. And, oh yeah, THERE IS NOTHING, AND I MEAN NOTHING RANDOM IN THIS DECKLIST! Every single spot in the deck has a purpose and was discussed to death. If you look in the previous threads you will find answers to each of your inquiries regarding the current list and how it developed.

In response to your side note, GW Madness or GW beats is no were nearly as consistent as UG, has no card draw, and has no counters. The presence of Survival based decks make the majority of other agro based decks obsolete. Which brings me to my next point, UG madness is not an agro based strategy (which Garv has stated numerous times).

Note: This is the Legacy Metagame Forum, please keep all posts focused on the deck in question. GW madness should not be discussed in this threat, there is already a GW thread in the developmental forum.

[Garvman]

Ok, I think there needs to be a little clearing up here:
UG Madness in all of it's forms comes from a Standard (Type 2) deck. I'm pretty sure I stated this in the very first part of the very first post. If you'll notice, with the exception of FoW, Brainstorm, Bouncer, Naturalize, and a buch of the lands, the entire deck is from the OTJ sets, BOTH the 1.5 and type 1 builds are based on the old type 2 deck, things were simply modified due to a larger pool of support cards, such as brainstorm and FoW.

@Happy: No, there is nothing "random", per-se, but there is a metagame slot (being the naturalizes) that can easily be switched around for changing metagames (for example, if your meta has a lot of Solitaire and not much Survival, you may want to use stifle instead of naturalize). I'm pretty sure I stated this in my fist post as well.

@ White Splash: If I were to splash white, I would consider brushopper, but he probably wouln't make the cut because he costs 3, and not only does that slow down the curve of the deck by a whole turn by waiting another turn to get madness going (a crucial one at that), it takes cost slot of arrogant wurm, and further decrases the tempo that way. Also, he may be evasive, but you MUST ditch 2 cards in order to use him (whether you have 2 cards you want to ditch or not), and you can only use him once per turn, making him a not so ideal madness outlet. The only card would make the cut with a white spalsh is STP, and I don't think it is worth the messing of the mana base.


@Guilded Drake: I tested him a little bit, and I've got to say, he is ok if I have a bouncer on the table, but otherwise, giving my opponent a 3/3 flyer is rarely an acceptable drawback with respect to the creature I am taking from them. If your meta is seeing a lot of big creature reanimator decks, than I can see him in a SB slot, but otherwise, 2 waterfront bouncers is not enough to make the drake good.


On another note, I'd like to bring up somthing that hasn't been discussed yet: I also tested Merfolk Looter, and was wondering if anyone else had done the same. I found him to be slow and not as useful as I thought he would be, simply because he couldn't swing and act as an outlet at the same time. He may have been useful in Standard, but in 1.5 he is too easily killed, and is not an effctive damage source (neither is waterfront bouncer, but SOME type of critter removal is necessary). I find that brainstorm/deep analysis is enough card draw, and that looter does more harm than good by slowing down the clock. Yes, I realize this deck plays like a control deck, but I've said before that it is successful because it only needs to control the game for a short period of time, while your creatures beat down, so the ideal decklist maintains a balance that tries not to sacrafice one element for the other (control/aggro), but rather use cards and strategies that compliment both elements at the same time. This is why Roar didn't make the cut, and why looter isn't making my cut.


EDIT: When you are wondering about a certain card choice or strategy, please take a moment to look at the rest of the thread (particularly the first post) and make sure that your question hasn't already been answered yet.



Edited By Garvman on 1104180954

[AngryTroll]

I really liked the Merfolk Looter. It won me many a game when I had to topdeck a logic to win. However, I cut the looter, and I have not regretted it.

Benefits:
Card drawing
Madness outlet

Downfall:
Slowness. The looter really needs another madness outlet in play to be good. Cards like Deep Analysis, Arrogant Wurm, Rootwalla, and Wonder build up in hand and have no way to make it to the graveyard quickly. But if turn two is spent casting a real outlet, and turn three EOT Arrogant Wurm, the earliest time to cast the Looter is turn 4. You do not draw a card until turn 5.
The problem with a turn two Looter is that it dies to everything. Swords, Fire/Ice, Bolt, even Lava Dart kills it. Twice. Casting the Looter turn two turns into a time walk for opponents far too often. Even if it does live, a Wild Mongrel is almost always far superior. The Mongrel (and Meoba) are harder to kill, swing for damage, and let you discard multiple cards a turn (A Wurm and Rootwalla, or Logic and Wallas, or Wonder then Logic for their turn.)

Well, why is Waterfront Bouncer included then? The Bouncer is also slow, but while it is sitting around dropping cards from hand, it helps deal with opponents' threats. The Looter sits there improving card quality, and does nothing about opponents creatures. Bouncer > Looter. By a lot.

I could see the Looter maybe in the sideboard for the control matchups where the Bouncer is no good, but Bouncer is good against Exalted Angel. Choke is a much better choice. I would love to use my Looters again, but I cannot justify their spot in the deck.

[goldenj]

I'm trying sylvan library in the brainstorm slot. The eight fetches seemed like it would make it worthwhile. (Though I'm still not convinced. The synergy of the fetch with circ logic is pretty good.) So far brainstorm is better vs duress (duh) and with Force (double duh) but sylvan is pretty strong otherwise. Especially vs control.

I really want some acceleration for turn one madness outlet. I can't find the room for mox diamonds, which would be good with the wasteland, which right now seem to be underperforming. I'm considering swapping them out for Yav. coasts or 3 forest 1 island. Elvish spirit guide has the same problem. Chrome mox would be okay for having the land slots, but I'm always shy good color cards to lose to it.

Without Survival the anger idea doesn't work, and of course survival makes this a different deck.

I'm liking Aether burst better than echoing truth. Much better in a race, better synergy with mongrel's card dumping.

Crazy idea I'm trying right now: 3 Oath of Scholars for 2 deep analysis and 1 wonder.

--John

[sauceding]

As a quick question, is madness qualify as full aggro deck or aggro-control?

[Sims]

As a quick question, is madness qualify as full aggro deck or aggro-control?

To answer this question, I will point it out in the Original post for you:

UGMadness is an aggro-control deck that runs off of the "madness" mechanic that was introduced in Oddesy block.

Simple enough. Please read the thread carefully before asking simple, one-line questions such as this in the LMF.

[BoTS]

With Survival and other aggro decks on the rise, is the suggestion of running Extended tech in the sideboard worth consideration? Submerge and Powder Keg seem like they could be good in the current metagame, albeit the fact that Keg is a little slow.

[baptist]

I tested a list very similar but with the following changes:

- 4 wasteland +2 island +2 forest
- 1 arrogant wurm -2 bouncer + 3 careful study

I use the careful study in addition to the brainstorm. What is the role of careful study?
Second turn you ideally tap out for a mongrel or moeba, but often this gets countered, STP or burnt away. Careful study helps to find another mongrel or moeba faster. And arrogant is dead without an outlet. 3 seems to do very well. Careful study also helps to get faster a wonder in the graveyard what seems to be the most important card in the deck. Without wonder winning games is difficult but with a wonder you are nearly unbeatable.

That's what I found from several testings against landstill, RGu survival and weldersurvival decks.

So I suggest using careful study in conjunction with brainstorm.

Be careful with the Brainstorm vs Careful Study argument. I understand that you are using them together, but be wary since "THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION ON BRAINSTORM VS CAREFUL STUDY. IF YOU WANT TO USE STUDY IN YOUR DECK, GO FOR IT, BUT WE ARE ALL QUITE TIRED OF THAT ARGUMENT."

Peter_Rotten

[Khelek]

In my time playing the deck I've found that the Bouncer was essential. It serves as a reusable way to clear the board of Exalted Angels, Spore Frogs, and other threats you have trouble eliminating. Bouncer may seem dead or useless in control oriented matchups, but even there it can serve as removal protection for your most important men.

I can understand cutting Wasteland if it's been underperforming in your meta, but in mine most decks seem to run tons of non-basics. Wastelands have allowed me to cut my opponents off from a crucial color multiple times, so in my meta I would definitely be keeping them in.

I also see your attraction to Careful Study as it has been a madness deck staple since the deck was running around in block/T2, however it really isn't that powerful in the Legacy incarnation of the madness deck. Except for allowing you drop a wonder it's a poor madness outlet:
-It's sorcery speed means no ability to drop surprise threats eot.
-If you use it to power out an Arrogant Wurm you're most likely tapping out, which is something this deck doesn't really like to do.
-I can understand your point that it is useful for searching out a second madness outlet early in the game, however at that point in the game there are also few cards you truly want to discard to absorb the inherent card disadvantage it provides (Wonder, Deep Analysis, Basking Rootwalla, maybe extra lands).

So, those are my thoughts on your changes. If they've been working out for you though then that's great and I wish you continued success with the deck.

[FatHydralisk]

Ok, some of you who know me will smack your head and groan, but has anyone tried winter orb? Maybe it wouldnt fit maindeck, but it makes FoW, Daze, Rootwalla, Bouncer, and Wasteland more powerful. It also acts as a pseudo 'geddon, which could be used when you have good board position.

[ryan1989]

Winter Orb seems like a win-more card. Of course it's good with an active Waterfront Bouncer while you beat down with double Arrogant Wurm, but at that point you have already won. There is also the issue of what to cut, I assume that Winter Orb would be best against control but what card would you want to remove to fit in Winter Orbs, some might say that you should remove Naturalizes since Naturalize is a "metagame slot" but Naturalize takes care of many common control cards such as Crucible of Worlds, Nev's Disk and Isochron Scepter. Plus Madness already has a great game against most forms of control.

Please do not remove Waterfront Bouncer from Madness. He's a madness outlet and removal two things madness sorely needs. I'm not going to argue with Careful Study since it has been argued to death since Madness was ported to 1.5.

[baptist]

I will not argue against waterfrount bouncer. UG madness definately needs him. But I play him 2 times in my SB.

I want to hear some more about which cards you play in your SB. For the moment I play:

2 tsabo's web (landstill I kick you)
2 B2B
3 stifle (combo, control)
2 bouncer
3 BEB
3 tormod's crypt (reanimator, survival)

[BoTS]

Why would you play 2 Webs and 2 BtB instead of just running three or four of the latter? Web only shines against Landstill while Back to Basics tends to kick quite a few decks in the teeth, not to mention that it also pitches to Force of Will. That second fact alone would make me want to run more of them over Web even in a Landstill heavy metagame.

[Eclipt1c]

Why would you play 2 Webs and 2 BtB instead of just running three or four of the latter? Web only shines against Landstill while Back to Basics tends to kick quite a few decks in the teeth, not to mention that it also pitches to Force of Will. That second fact alone would make me want to run more of them over Web even in a Landstill heavy metagame.

I agree with BoTs, run one or the other. Both are succeptable to the same hate, Web may be easier to cast and cantrips, except it's so much more narrow than B2B, I'm not seeing why you're running Web at all.

[Carney2k4]

Has anyone concidered +1 Bouncer -1 Naturalize? This is a pure metagame decision, but I plan on seeing alot of aggro in the future and was wondering if anyone has tested this. Thoughts?

[ryan1989]

I have also tested a third Waterfront Bouncer in the maindeck. I just don't find it necessary, and if I were to replace a card with bouncer it would be a Deep Analysis(my list runs one less land and an additional Deep Analysis).

[SillyMetalGAT]

Hey garv, great decklist! The thing I wanted to know is, has anyone else considered Masticore in replacement of bouncer or in the SB? He absolutely owns weenie decks, can block 'Tog and live, AND he's a madness outlet (granted its a forced outlet, but its still an outlet). On top of that, he's a 4/4 beatstick... Just an idea. Maybe he could go in the meta slot, but thats 12 outlets, I dont know... I'll put up another post after Sunday with my results of using him.

[Carney2k4]

The fact that Masticore is a forced outlet doesn't make it very appealing. On top of that, he's 4 mana, and is very mana intensive, and U/G Madness lacks the resources needed to make Masticore function properly. He really isn't needed on top of all of that. I'm interested in how your testing goes though.

[Garvman]

Masticore is quite the interesting idea... the fact that he adds solid creature removal to a deck that is otherwise lacking it is appealing, and that 4/4 regenerating part isn't to bad either. I do not, however, like the idea of forced discard, because I have a feeling that it would bite me in the ass one to many times, and I also don't like the idea of tapping 4 mana on my turn (see: Roar of the Wurm). I am actually quite interested to see how he works out, although I think that he would be better in UGr aggro builds running squee than in the UG control builds. Do some testing and let me know how it goes. I think I will test him out a little bit too....can't hurt! :)

[SillyMetalGAT]

Well, I played 10 games with Bane_Of_The_Living, and the results were 4-10..... Most of the time I lost because of Titan (Such a stupid card by the way) But the game I did win, 3 out of the 4 had Masticore at the end of the game. Masticore works because the things that were discarded were things such as:

1. Extra Lands
2. Extra Madness outlets
3. Madness cards

not to mention that his welders never really got to do much, cuz i just blasted them when he went to do that silly thing with the welder..... But, more testing shall be done!