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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Pox

  1. #3721

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    Burn have no hate against marit lage, and must rely on speed to win.
    Crop rotate and swing for the win.
    Burn normally runs Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard.

  2. #3722
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittplayer View Post
    Burn normally runs Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard.
    I stand corrected. I doubt it will help against his deck though.
    "Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux

  3. #3723
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I think it puts the deck on even footing, and for a matchup like Burn vs Pox that's incredibly good. Historically Burn does very well against Pox because Burn top-decks better, without blue, than almost any other deck in the format. Making it even g1 with Depths and then gaining any sort of edge g2 because of the green addition seems to be very good, at least in this particular matchup.

    What I love about the approach is that hate cards against Depths don't necessarily bother this deck...Bloodghast and Treetop Village both do a fine job of killing opponents while doing a normal Pox plan. Even Hexmage is fine, it hits as hard as Ghast or Factory, and even has first strike. I'm not sacrificing the traditional pox plan at all, except for playing a few more threats and forcing in 4-5 slots to a combo, which would normally be Dark Ritual or some extra spot removal.
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  4. #3724

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Couple cards that I was really happy with last night. Bitterblossom, leyline of the void and bontu's last reckoning. They all pulled their weight in gold. My list is kind of similar to Mr safety's latest, main difference I have an entomb package and 2 depths 2 stage. Whole deck feels great!

  5. #3725
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Bam Bam View Post
    Couple cards that I was really happy with last night. Bitterblossom, leyline of the void and bontu's last reckoning. They all pulled their weight in gold. My list is kind of similar to Mr safety's latest, main difference I have an entomb package and 2 depths 2 stage. Whole deck feels great!
    How many lands are you playing? I've upped my land count to 27 and finally feel comfortable. Maze, wastes, and depths/stage don't count , not when you need initial mana sources. I've also switched to 1x mishra's factory over treetop. Easier to activate and it can activate itself for cabal therapy and in response to sac effects from opponents trying to deal with marit lage.
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  6. #3726
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Yes, wasteland and Mishra are best thought of as spells and creatures.
    "Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux

  7. #3727

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    any thoughts on the recent top8 by this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17332&d=307204&f=LE ?

    it seems like a classic build. was interested to see the sinkholes, i think i'll give them another try. and the ob nixilis seems to have come up a few times in these high performing lists, so i think i'll give it a shot as well. surprised by the absence of scroll, and he has very very few wincons in game 1 (just factories and the ob nixilis emblem from what i can tell).

    i was particularly intrigued by the sideboard - has anyone else had success with the helm combo from the board? what matchups is it good in and which is it weak in?
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  8. #3728

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    any thoughts on the recent top8 by this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17332&d=307204&f=LE ?

    it seems like a classic build. was interested to see the sinkholes, i think i'll give them another try. and the ob nixilis seems to have come up a few times in these high performing lists, so i think i'll give it a shot as well. surprised by the absence of scroll, and he has very very few wincons in game 1 (just factories and the ob nixilis emblem from what i can tell).

    i was particularly intrigued by the sideboard - has anyone else had success with the helm combo from the board? what matchups is it good in and which is it weak in?
    He can also beatdown with Waste Not zombies as a wincon (albeit unreliably).

    11x Bojuka Bog weow
    I think that if you're going to play 1x Chains 2x Waste Not then it's worth adding Geier Reach Sanitarium, and I'm not sure I would ever play less than 4 Lilianas.
    It seems like Helm/Line is the anti-combo plan because there is no other card in the SB that neatly replaces e.g. Push, Innocent Blood against a deck like Storm. (Many combo decks are additionally weak to Leyline, so that's a bonus).

  9. #3729
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    any thoughts on the recent top8 by this list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17332&d=307204&f=LE ?

    it seems like a classic build. was interested to see the sinkholes, i think i'll give them another try. and the ob nixilis seems to have come up a few times in these high performing lists, so i think i'll give it a shot as well. surprised by the absence of scroll, and he has very very few wincons in game 1 (just factories and the ob nixilis emblem from what i can tell).

    i was particularly intrigued by the sideboard - has anyone else had success with the helm combo from the board? what matchups is it good in and which is it weak in?
    The more Lands and/or Dark Depths combo you have in your metagame, the better Sinkhole gets. It's lackluster in fair matchups like Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, Death and Taxes, and it's horrible against Loam-based decks. When you consider what Hymn and Smallpox do against fair decks, you'll see how much more important it is to strip their hand instead of killing lands. The only fair decks that seems slightly weak to Sinkhole are UR Delver and maybe RUG Delver, simply because they only play 18 lands and 14 lands (+4 Wastelands) respectively. Brainstorm and Ponder can only do so much against Wasteland + Sinkhole + Smallpox. Their few threats are also easily dealt with by discard/Smallpox/Liliana as well. Against unfair decks like Show and Tell, Storm, and Elves killing a land is almost like doing nothing. It *might* buy you a turn, but they have so many alternative mana sources (mana elves, lotus petal, lion's eye diamond, Ancient Tomb) or they are so fast that you're dead the turn after you *just* kill a land.

    Ob Nixilis is really something that allows you to scale up in the late game with 5+ mana available. Another option is to play 1-2 Raven's Crime, which turns excess lands into discard. I wouldn't play either unless I used 1-2 Crucible of Worlds in the deck, simply because hitting 5 lands naturally, after Smallpox-ing and using Wasteland as land drops, you need a way to feed those expensive spells. Tombstalker is another fantastic way to turn extra lands into value, or even Gurmag Angler. I've tried Empty the Pits and that can be almost a combo with lots of lands and a fat graveyard. Pack Rat is also spicy with extra lands for fodder.

    Helm + Leyline is when you need to have a fast win against decks that are capable of out-grinding you (Loam decks, Landstill, Lands mostly.) This is basically because Loam is incredible against Pox. Helm + Leyline can also be done super fast with Dark Rituals. Turn Zero Leyline, turn 2-3 Helm + activation with the help of Dark Ritual. Leyline is also naturally VERY strong against some decks, like Dredge, Storm, and Loam. It also has very good uses against anything using Snapcaster Mage or Gurmag Angler. It normally wouldn't do enough against Snap/Angler decks, but its plenty when you can combo them fast. Fast combo against Burn is also one of the only ways to even up that matchup (which is why I use Dark Depths/Stage/green splash.)

    I'm actually looking to get into the Helm/Leyline combo plan. I have 1x Helm but I need the leylines and at least 2 more helms, maybe 3.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 11-07-2017 at 11:38 AM.
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  10. #3730
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Played in a local this weekend, 4 rounds, went 1-3. Played Dredge (win), BUG Aluren (loss), Dragon Stompy (loss), Naya Aggro Loam (loss). My losses were due to mana issues and variance, for sure. I lucked into a combo against dredge both games, they were over by turns 3-4. BUG Aluren was a super grindy matchup that had me in both games, but I eventually lost (going to time.) Dragon Stompy losses were to t1 Rabblemaster both games, along with Chalice@1 which slowed me down significantly, allowing him to get multiple threats down. Naya Aggro Loam just out-mana-ed me with Mox Diamond + Wasteland t1 in both games. I had a t3 win g2, but I was banking on t1 Catacombs>Bayou, t2 Stage>Loam. He wastes my bayou t1, I don't draw any other colored lands, game over.

    I really like the Depths plan, it's really solid. However, I think only playing 1 copy each of Depths/Stage is too little. Long story short: turbo depths is just better at doing the combo, of course, and playing a long Pox plan doesn't really pan out. I think if I want to merge Depths into another deck, it has to be much more aggressive rather than passive with Smallpox. I really wanted Deathrite Shaman to ramp/fix mana, for sure. Smallpox puts a big wrench in those gears. think if I want to play Pox in the future it will be Bitterblossom and mono-black. I just don't have the BB's right now.

    This was my list, which I am shelving for now. The sideboard wasn't perfect either, I should have had Darkblast instead of Engineered Plague, and Toxic Deluge would have been much better than Maelstrom Pulse. Maze of Ith was bad, forcing me to Crop for Urborg in at least 2 games. I would drop that to the sideboard. Definitely want Pithing Needle in the 75.

    4x Vampire Hexmage
    2x bloodghast
    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Cabal Therapy
    4x Hymn to Tourach
    4x Smallpox
    3x Liliana of the Veil
    3x Abrupt Decay
    1x Sylvan Library
    1x Life from the Loam
    4x Crop Rotation
    1x Garruk Relentless


    27 Lands
    4x Verdant Catacombs
    2x Misty Rainforest
    1x Bayou
    1x Overgrown Tomb
    1x Woodland Cemetery
    3x Swamp
    1x Forest
    1x Bojuka Bog
    4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Mishra’s Factory
    1x Cabal Pit
    4x Wasteland
    1x Maze of Ith
    1x Dark Depths
    1x Thespian’s Stage

    Sideboard
    1x Karakas
    1x Maelstrom Pulse
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Choke
    2x Golgari Charm
    1x Pernicious Deed
    2x Diabolic Edict
    1x Lost Legacy
    3x Engineered Plague


    I think I'll rearrange the deck into a Dark Confidant/Deathrite Shaman/Tarmogoyf agro deck that also plays Crop Rotation/Depths/Stage. That way I can play aggressively and distract from the Depths plan.
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  11. #3731

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    ....I really like the Depths plan, it's really solid. However, I think only playing 1 copy each of Depths/Stage is too little. Long story short: turbo depths is just better at doing the combo, of course, and playing a long Pox plan doesn't really pan out. I think if I want to merge Depths into another deck, it has to be much more aggressive rather than passive with Smallpox. I really wanted Deathrite Shaman to ramp/fix mana, for sure. Smallpox puts a big wrench in those gears. think if I want to play Pox in the future it will be Bitterblossom and mono-black. I just don't have the BB's right now.

    This was my list...

    4x Vampire Hexmage
    2x bloodghast
    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Cabal Therapy
    4x Hymn to Tourach
    4x Smallpox
    3x Liliana of the Veil
    3x Abrupt Decay
    1x Sylvan Library
    1x Life from the Loam
    4x Crop Rotation
    1x Garruk Relentless
    ...


    I think I'll rearrange the deck into a Dark Confidant/Deathrite Shaman/Tarmogoyf agro deck that also plays Crop Rotation/Depths/Stage. That way I can play aggressively and distract from the Depths plan.
    4x Smallpox, 1x Life from the Loam and a 4cmc Planeswalker maindeck... you're never going to have mana to cast anything.

    -Smallpox and Stage/Depths plan is only viable because of Life from the Loam...you need at minimum three copies.

    -If you really want to be more grindy and play Hexmage, Liliana, the Last Hope would fit better in the deck than Veil...you could use her -2 to "recur" an Entombed or sacrificed Hexmage...or even one put there by the mill part of the -2.

    -You wouldn't want Deathrite as ramp since it folds to Smallpox...I'd recommend Mox Diamond instead.

    As a start:
    In:
    +2 Life from the Loam
    +3 Mox Diamond
    +3 Liliana, the Last Hope
    +1 Volrath's Stronghold
    +2 Entomb
    +1 Toxic Deluge

    Out:
    -2 Crop Rotation
    -3 Liliana of the Veil
    -1 Maze of Ith
    -1 Smallpox
    -1 Hymn to Tourach
    -1 Vampire Hexmage
    -1 Garruk Relentless
    -1 Cabal Therapy
    -1 Thoughtseize

  12. #3732
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Meh, or I could just shelve the deck for now. I don't think Smallpox is really that great in my metagame right now. I've played traditional Junk and ripped wins off Bob and Tarmogoyf though, which is fun in itself. I don't have the Mox Diamonds, and I only have 1x Loam ATM.
    Approaching transcendence
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  13. #3733

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    So I tried out the Leyline/Helm from the board thingy - was quite pleased with it. It enabled me to win two matches against Burn that I otherwise had no business winning, so that's something. Feel vaguely like I might try it in the maindeck - what's life without a little experimentation, eh?

    I will say however that it does lead to you getting these hands that look sweet because you have the combo and a ritual, but really have little to no disruption and are just gonna lose to a counterspell when you get around to casting Helm or to a Duress before that even happens. So be careful. Though you guys probably already know that.

    My list, for what it's worth:
    4 Lilliana of the Veil
    1 Ob-Nixilis Reignited

    3 Cursed Scroll
    1 Pithing Needle

    1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

    4 Smallpox
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Innocent Blood
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Sinkhole
    2 Toxic Deluge
    1 Collective Brutality
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Beseech the Queen

    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Fatal Push

    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Cabal Pit
    10 Swamp

    SB
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Helm of Obedience
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Trinisphere
    2 Engineered Plague
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Collective Brutality

    PS a buddy of mine has generously offered to give me a deal on a set of the Four Seasons Antiquities Mishra's Factories (the set of em, signed, for $150), pretty pumped to put those babies to work
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  14. #3734

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    So I tried out the Leyline/Helm from the board thingy - was quite pleased with it. It enabled me to win two matches against Burn that I otherwise had no business winning, so that's something. Feel vaguely like I might try it in the maindeck - what's life without a little experimentation, eh?

    I will say however that it does lead to you getting these hands that look sweet because you have the combo and a ritual, but really have little to no disruption and are just gonna lose to a counterspell when you get around to casting Helm or to a Duress before that even happens. So be careful. Though you guys probably already know that.

    My list, for what it's worth:
    4 Lilliana of the Veil
    1 Ob-Nixilis Reignited

    3 Cursed Scroll
    1 Pithing Needle

    1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

    4 Smallpox
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Innocent Blood
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Sinkhole
    2 Toxic Deluge
    1 Collective Brutality
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Beseech the Queen

    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Fatal Push

    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Cabal Pit
    10 Swamp

    SB
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Helm of Obedience
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Trinisphere
    2 Engineered Plague
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Collective Brutality

    PS a buddy of mine has generously offered to give me a deal on a set of the Four Seasons Antiquities Mishra's Factories (the set of em, signed, for $150), pretty pumped to put those babies to work
    How do you like Bog in the main? I presume it is a hedge to use in combination with beseech against graveyard based combo. Honestly doesn't seem great to me, but if it has worked for you then I may be wrong. Generally without access to crop rotation I am not huge on bog and would rather see a surgical or extirpate. Otherwise the list seems solid. I would possibly consider some number of Dakmor Salvage to pair with Collective Brutality and ensure you can make land drops post poxing. That is personal preference for me though.

    That is a sweet deal. Enjoy those factories!

  15. #3735
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I played at Gaming for Gains 5 in Manchester, CT yesterday with Pox. There were about 60 players, i went 4-2 for 14th place, felt OK.

    my list:

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Innocent Blood
    2 Cursed Scroll
    2 Pithing Needle
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Smallpox
    3 Sinkhole
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Collective Brutality
    4 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Toxic Deluge
    1 Nether Spirit
    1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
    10 Swamp
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Cabal Pit
    1 Tomb of Urami

    and my sideboard:

    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Collective Brutality
    3 Tombstalker
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Lost legacy
    1 Massacre

    Round 1, vs. Grixis Vial-Smasher:
    I win in 2, it's hard to get extra value from your spells when you have no lands...
    I boarded in Lost Legacy to fight Jace and took out a couple Rituals.
    1-0

    Round 2, vs. Soldier Stompy:
    I really lost to myself this round. I usually play in a very low stakes environment, and I get in the habit of keeping very speculative hands. This round I paid heavily for that. We played a game and a half for fun afterwards, and Pox seemed to do ok. I wish I could test against this deck more, it's fun. This guy Top 8'd too.
    I boarded in Massacre and Collective Brutalities for Dark Rituals and Pithing Needles. Mostly to fight Thalias.
    1-1

    Round 3, vs. Eldrazi Post:
    I lost game 1, but both post board games I crushed him. I think that we crush this deck in general, they rely too much on their lands and one big threat.
    I don't really have a board for this match-up, but I took out the Brutality and the Night of Souls' Betrayal for a 3rd needle and a lost legacy. Needle turns off Karn and Ugin (and Grim Monolith untaps) and Lost Legacy can take out Smashers, TKS, or a Planeswalker pre-emptively.
    2-1

    Round 4, vs. Moon Stompy:
    Ugh, this feels unwinnable. I bring in more Needles and Lost Legacys to take out their Chandras and other win conditions, but Blood Moon is decent against us, and he had a variety of win-cons. Does anyone have any insight about this match-up? I don't really know how to fight it. I did Needle an Ensnaring Bridge that had been Quicksilver Rebel'd, which was a first...
    2-2

    Round 5, vs. Elves:
    I lost game 1 to a Quick Craterhoof, But after boarding in brutalities and lost legacies, I smashed him. Lost Legacy on Hoof was sweet, that's a way we can lose off the top. I cut 2 hymns, a sinkhole, and 2 Rituals.
    3-2

    Round 6, vs. U/R Delver:
    Pox Smash! This was brutal, he never even got a foot in the door. Game 2 I put in Brutalities for Pithing Needles, Mulled to 4, and still smashed him.
    4-2

    One 4-2 made the top 8, it was the Soldier Stompy Guy. I played in a side event after and saw Grixis Delver, Eldrazi Post (again), U/B Reanimator, and Loam Pox mirror to finish out the night. I lost all of those rounds except the pox mirror. I was tired and unfocused, which may have contributed.

    All in all, it was a great day, my friend made 10th place and then won the side event for an unlimited Savannah (he was on U/R Delver).

    The changes I plan to make to my list are small. This tournament was the nail in the coffin for Tomb of Urami. It is cool, and fun, and seldom useful. In this tournament it cost me a game because it was not a swamp on 2 occasions, one involving my life total, one involving a blood moon. See-Ya. I also missed the 4th Sinkhole. Everytime I drew one it felt good, and I think I need to put it back in. I think I will cut the maindeck Brutality or the Night of Souls' Betrayal for it. The lost Legacies are still an experiment, but they felt better than the OB Nixilis and To the Slaughter they replaced. The Tombstalkers did not see any use, but they are for match-ups I dodged, so they stay. 3 Innocent bloods felt right, and I never wished they were Fatal Push. I still like the Rituals even though I board them out a lot.

    Any questions?
    Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

  16. #3736
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    So I tried out the Leyline/Helm from the board thingy - was quite pleased with it. It enabled me to win two matches against Burn that I otherwise had no business winning, so that's something. Feel vaguely like I might try it in the maindeck - what's life without a little experimentation, eh?

    I will say however that it does lead to you getting these hands that look sweet because you have the combo and a ritual, but really have little to no disruption and are just gonna lose to a counterspell when you get around to casting Helm or to a Duress before that even happens. So be careful. Though you guys probably already know that.

    My list, for what it's worth:
    4 Lilliana of the Veil
    1 Ob-Nixilis Reignited

    3 Cursed Scroll
    1 Pithing Needle

    1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

    4 Smallpox
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Innocent Blood
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Sinkhole
    2 Toxic Deluge
    1 Collective Brutality
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Beseech the Queen

    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Fatal Push

    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Cabal Pit
    10 Swamp

    SB
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Helm of Obedience
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Trinisphere
    2 Engineered Plague
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Collective Brutality

    PS a buddy of mine has generously offered to give me a deal on a set of the Four Seasons Antiquities Mishra's Factories (the set of em, signed, for $150), pretty pumped to put those babies to work
    Regarding Helm/Leyline: I think it's role is really a sideboard option. The matchups where you want it aren't decided by traditional disruption, which is why you bring it in. Your analysis is spot on, which is why I feel it's sideboard material.

    Happy to see Cabal Therapy in there, even as a 1-of it can be very powerful. I don't see the traditional 1-of Nether Spirit, which I think had to leave for Beseech the Queen. I really think Bog maindeck isn't necessary, not with the nuclear option of Leyline in the board. If bog isn't necessary, then Beseech is probably over-costed and slow. That could be your Nether Spirit slot, which gives you flashback options for Therapy, blocking, and doubling your clock alongside Scroll.

    One thought I've had with tutor effects is to use Dark Petition, especially with 4x Dark Ritual. It gives you BBB and essentially a Demonic Tutor. That BBB can cast, most importantly, Liliana and Deluge.

    How was Sinkhole? I can't help but think that playing 4x Hymn and 2x Ratchet Bomb might have been a little more useful. Maybe I'm wrong, but Sinkhole was always a disappointment to me. I felt like I needed to draw perfect for it to be worth it. I would need Dark Ritual, Wasteland, Sinkhole, and then follow it up with Hymn/Smallpox (and yet still have the lands to cast those BB spells...) It always seemed like asking too much. I could see 1x Sinkhole as Wasteland #5, but beyond that, I really like Ratchet Bomb a lot better. It has great uses against anyone that draws out of your pox lock and lands a few threats that you can't deal with.
    Approaching transcendence
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  17. #3737

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Thanks for the comments Mr. Safety

    I've had Beseech in since forever, have always been happy with it though admittedly it's slow. Took the tech from all those Adachi Ryosuke lists on mtgtop8, that guy is my Pox hero. Dark Petition is an interesting idea, though I feel it would be just as slow - if you have a ritual you can also ritual into Beseech... Though after that you only have 2 mana, not 3, so fair point on that.

    I think you're right though that I should find room for 1x Nether Spirit. I didn't really miss it, but it's a great out and works well with Therapy (which I'm thinking of playing more of, maybe a 3/2 Inquisition/Therapy split). Bog will probably just become a swamp - I'm only at 23 lands. Any suggestions what else to cut? I thought of going to 2 Scrolls...

    As for Sinkhole, I also was playing without them for a while, just put them back in - kind of inspired by the more recent list on mtgtop8. They shone in the few games I played with this new list, though. Keeping Burn on 1 land helps a lot, and there are a few matchups when if there's no Deathrite you can plausibly keep them off a color with it, not to mention all the Depths decks it's good against. Obviously kinda lame against Elves or Miracles or Stoneblade though. I'm gonna keep playing with it for now and see how it goes. Maybe go down to 2 for the Nether Spirit.


    @ntropy - Nice Finish!

    I was a little surprised to hear about the Moon stompy matchup, though I've never played it myself and what you say does make some sense. Do you think having the Helm combo would help against Moon Stompy? I feel like they can be slow to close the game sometimes - Chandra takes at least 3-4 turns, and they have very little disruption that matters if we go for a straight combo plan (maybe game two they name Helm with a Spyglass, but still).

    How do you feel about Lost Legacy vs Surgical? Former is much more proactive, but latter has some interesting applications as grave-hate, and can also hit nonbasic lands.
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  18. #3738
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I think Mr. Safety is spot on, Leyline/Helm is a good sideboard option vs. decks that don't respond well to traditional disruption. I could see it coming in vs. Moon Stompy, Burn, Painted Stone, Sneak and Show. I guess I better pick up some Helms. What is the recommended number in the board? 2 or 3? The other option would be something like Bitterblossom that generates continuous pressure, but I think a drastic change to a combo kill with helm could be worth a lot as a surprise factor.

    I like Lost Legacy, because I don't have to waste a thoughtseize on Jace, then extract him, I can just hit him directly. The thoughtseize is more valuable hitting a DRS or K.Command or something. It is still very much in testing, but I've liked it so far.
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I have been very underwhelmed with Lost Legacy. It's too slow without Dark Ritual, and the decks where you need it (combo mostly) are too fast to matter. Discard into Surgical is a much better plan. I've always leaned on Pithing Needle to deal with Jace and on discard to fight storm and sneak/show. I don't know what other matchups I'd bring Lost Legacy in for, maybe dredge. If I'm already boarding 4x Leyline of the Void then Lost Legacy against dredge is laughable in comparison.

    Decks I like Leyline/Helm combo against: Burn, Storm, Dredge, Reanimator. Those decks don't care about Cursed Scroll, Sinkhole, Toxic Deluge. You have plenty of room to board in the combo. Against Reanimator and Dredge you have Hymn to board out as well, probably less useful than smallpox which is still marginal against them, basically a discard and kill a land. I'm not sure I like Helm combo against Sneak and Show...I suppose if you get a t0 leyline and have it in hand you can play it off Show and Tell and win before they can, seems good to me. I would want at least 3x Helm to pull that off.

    I'm glad ntropy mentioned Bitterblossom...in mono-black I think Bitterblossom is about the best threat, seriously.
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I have been very underwhelmed with Lost Legacy. It's too slow without Dark Ritual, and the decks where you need it (combo mostly) are too fast to matter. Discard into Surgical is a much better plan. I've always leaned on Pithing Needle to deal with Jace and on discard to fight storm and sneak/show. I don't know what other matchups I'd bring Lost Legacy in for, maybe dredge. If I'm already boarding 4x Leyline of the Void then Lost Legacy against dredge is laughable in comparison.

    Decks I like Leyline/Helm combo against: Burn, Storm, Dredge, Reanimator. Those decks don't care about Cursed Scroll, Sinkhole, Toxic Deluge. You have plenty of room to board in the combo. Against Reanimator and Dredge you have Hymn to board out as well, probably less useful than smallpox which is still marginal against them, basically a discard and kill a land. I'm not sure I like Helm combo against Sneak and Show...I suppose if you get a t0 leyline and have it in hand you can play it off Show and Tell and win before they can, seems good to me. I would want at least 3x Helm to pull that off.

    I'm glad ntropy mentioned Bitterblossom...in mono-black I think Bitterblossom is about the best threat, seriously.
    I'm trying out Lost Legacy, I'm also worried about its slowness. I tend to lean on Thoughtseize and Leyline against Combo, I'm just looking for a way to fight Planeswalkers that can't be Abrupt Decayed. I use Needles too. I will continue to report on it's success/failure.

    How do you approach the Sneak and Show Matchup? I have struggled with it in the past, and now haven't seen it in so long I just have a vague unease about it, but no testing. When I struggled with it I was on GB Loam-Chalice Pox and everything just felt 100% Dead. In Mono Black I think Thoughtseize and Dark Ritual improve the match a lot, but I don't really know, no one plays it locally. My current theory/plan is to cut 2 Toxic Deluge, 2 Ratchet Bomb and a Nether Spirit for 2 Collective Brutalities(discard Show and Tell/Cunning Wish), 2 Lost Legacies(Extract Show and Tell), and a third Needle(turn off Sneak Attack). I think Bringing in Tombstalker to race is unlikely to succeed, but I could be wrong. If I put Helms in the board, I would probably bring them in, but I'll cross that bridge when I pick them up.

    Thanks!
    Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

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