I'm worried that Blood Sun (from Rivals of Ixalan) will power up Red based Prison decks. Both Blood Sun and Mono Red Prison decks in general are pretty good against us.
Does anyone have any thoughts on fighting prison decks? Tech, Play patterns, approaches to the match? I've struggled with both Moon Stompy and Sneak attack already, and I'm just trying to prepare in case the hype is real.
Thanks!
(Sorry if this is a double post, my computer is acting funny)
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Not relying too much on Mishra's Factory to win, not having too many 1cc spells in the deck. At least that is how my deck handle moon stompy. Look at it the other way; stompy want to hit your weaknesses. In Legacy that is usually a mana base full of non basics and lots of cc 1 spells. Ie, the typical Delver deck. Mono B otoh don't really look like that. Chalice on one doesn't stop us, neither does blood moon. We play Hymn, liliana, Pox etc. And lots of swamps.
The trick thus is to blank the hate. If you do that moon stompy will become very toothless.
Sneak attack is annoying, but a different kind of deck and need another approach.
Hi there, guys!
I think I finally found a balanced and consistent build. I used to think that the right build required four copies of most cards, but I was wrong. After testing for almost two weeks now, I am certain that the following list is the most robust and has shown the most results I have ever experienced, regarding Legacy Pox. I played against all sorts of Delver variants, Sneak & Show, Death & Taxes, with surprisingly good results.
Land (25)
2x Cabal Pit
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
9x Snow-Covered Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
Enchantment (3)
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Nether Void
1x The Abyss
Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery (16)
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
2x Sinkhole
3x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize
Artifact (6)
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Meekstone
1x Phyrexian Totem
1x Trinisphere
Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit
Instant (6)
3x Dark Ritual
3x Fatal Push
Sideboard (15)
2x Dread of Night
2x Engineered Plague
2x Extirpate
2x Massacre
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Tormod's Crypt
The deck was shaped with my local metagame in mind, for sure, but here goes my two cents on it;
Lands:
Urborgs and 9 basic swamps as black mana sources
Wasteland, Cabal Pit, Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at Pendrel Valle as resource denial/Taxation effects
Mishra's Factory as our main win condition, very much like the decks of old (Like Randy Buehler's 'The Deck' and others)
Enchantments:
Legends epicness. Enough said.
Planeswalker:
I tried using 4 copies of 'Liliana of the Veil', but surprisingly, three worked better. I can even summon her turn 1 kinda regularly, with Dark Ritual's help.
Sorcery:
Here is where I had the most trouble fitting all pieces together. I used to run 4 of everyone of these, but as I ran more and more tests, I realized that it was wrong. Then after lots of thinkering, I came up with this;
* 4 copies of Hymn to Tourach. It is amazing. Perhaps one of the most amazing black spells, ever. Can be used in any stage of the game, most likely with catastrophic results to the opponent.
* 4 copies of Innocent Blood. Undefendable removal. Usually kills anything the opponent has for 1 black mana. Amazing.
* 2 copies of Sinkhole. The card I most struggled with. Two copies is enough and can help tremendously, without getting in the way.
* 3 copies of Smallpox. Yep, I've done it. I lowered the Smallpox count. For me, it worked better than a full set, which I didn't think would happen, but hey.
* 3 copies of Thoughtseize. Same logic behind Sinkhole. 3 copies do not get in the way late game and we reduce the life loss a little.
Artifacts:
The later additions to the deck. It made a big difference in the re-utilization of resources, which are scarce, prison elements and gave another kill condition;
* 1 copy Crucible of Worlds. It creates a soft lock, recurring infinite blockers (Mishra's Factories), Wastelands and Cabal Pits.
* 2 copies of Cursed Scroll. I've always been reluctant in using this card, until I used and understood it. It wins games by itself.
* 1 copy of Meekstone. Yep, Meekstone maindeck. It shuts down Delvers, Gurmar Anglers, Griselbrands and more. For 1 mana.
* 1 copy of Phyrexian Totem. The ideal turn 1, can be a source of mana or a win condition, all in one adorable Phyrexian.
* 1 copy of Trinisphere. Prison element, which helps a lot our game-plan. Makes people mad.
Creature
1 copy of Nether Spirit. The only deck this fellow plays, I think. We can discard it for Liliana's ability or Smallpox effect. Normally an recurring blocker, sometimes a win condition as well.
Instants:
* 3 copies of Dark Ritual. I used to run 4 of these, but then I drew it late game and died. 3 copies showed to be the sweet spot.
* 3 copies of Fatal Push. The most recent addition. It kills Delvers, Thalias, Deathrite Shamans, Stoneforge Mystics, Snapcaster Mages and some more. Hell yeah.
Sideboard:
The sideboard is divided basically into:
Death & Taxes hate:
2x Dread of Night
2x Massacre
2x Engineered Plague
Combo/Sneak & Show hate
2x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
Delver/Goblins/Weenies hate
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Ratchet Bomb
Dredge hate:
2x Tormod's Crypt
Hope you guys like it! If you have any question, feel free to ask!
Best regards.
Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.
Hi there!
Well, 'Czech Pile' is pretty much a 'wider' Grixis Delver, so a similar strategy applies to that scenario. I would pack more hand disruption (like 'Inquisition of Kozilek') and Ratched Bombs, to blow everything up. I would prioritize a hard lock as soon as possible as well (with 'Nether Void', for example).
Regarding tutors, I am thinking about the idea of moving 'Chains of Mephistopheles' to the sideboard, then I could put 1 copy of 'Beseech the Queen' mainboard. The idea is quite interesting, it is like having another copy of my 1-of spells. I will have to test that one out, though.
Thanks to you for the insight!
Best regards.
Last edited by LeonardoWilhelm; 01-25-2018 at 12:50 PM.
The list looks very solid and many of your reasonings as well. I've been on 2 (if not 0) Sinkholes as well, and if/when I run Dark Rituals main, its's also usually 3, never want 4.
3 Smallpox is something I'd have to test myself first, but it seems legit - not getting 2 black hurts sometimes, just as saccing lands early game or discarding that Lili you'd like to keep for later. Only 3 Lili's seems few though
Your mana base including Ph Totem reminds me very much of Adachi Ryosuke's builds! Do you feel the Tabernacle is worth it? I bought one but cut it again after 2 tourneys as it often was just 'Rishadan port 1-2x' vs any non-elves/EmptyTheWarrens deck.
I was just about to sell it again to help pay for my wedding. please tell me it's not great/necessary enough
How has The Abyss worked out for you? That's the only card in your list apart from Crucible (just sold it :D) I don't have yet, but it's another very big investment whose necessity I wasn't sure about before.
Edit: forgot to add - isn't Nihil Spellbomb better in general than Tormod's? It doesn't allow for turn 1 discard + Crypt vs combo which might be relevant. But the cycling seems like it would make it be worth it vs decks like Czech to keep Snap/Command in check without losing card advantage.
Hi there, mighty Fjaulnir!
I did cringe a little while reasoning about taking 1 'Liliana of the Veil' out, but it did work out, surprisingly. It helped a lot with the 'flow' of the deck, if that makes any sense. The 'Tabernacle' issue is highly discussed, and honestly, it is not that necessary, really. Don't get me wrong, it is indeed great, but you could change it easily for a copy of 'Karakas', which helps a lot as well. Sell it, buy a 'Karakas' and use the rest for your wedding (happy one, by the way. Best wishes).
'The Abyss' is just amazing, it is one of my favorite cards of all time, it can trully end games if resolved successfully. Just imagine the following scenario, where you kill that annoying turn 1 'Deathrite Shaman' and then cast 'Dark Ritual' -> 'The Abyss' on Turn 2. If it resolves, it most likely will end the game. I love it so much that I bought a playmat with it's art on it! (Search for: "mark's artist signature service and other elves and goblins" on Facebook, for anyone interested, they have lots of signed old art playmats for sale).
Regarding 'Tormod's Crypt', I still prefer that 0 mana cost over the cycling 'Nihil Spellbomb' offers, but it would also work similarly well.
Thanks a lot for such great questions!
Best regards.
Has anyone thought of directly porting the 8rack deck from modern
Example: Tom Ross list from September last year
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (24)
15 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
4 Mutavault
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Spells (32)
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
2 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
3 Wrench Mind
Obvious swaps would be to upgrade Mutavault into Factory and Wrench Mind into Hymn to Tourach (and maybe find space for Dark Ritual / Wasteland) but it's interesting that this version of the deck (4x Rack 4x Affliction) hardly seems to have had anybody test it or talk about it in Legacy even though it seems to have a reasonable following in modern.
Any thoughts?
I would probably try something like
4 Factory
4 Urborg
4 Wasteland
12 Swamp
4 Liliana
4 Affliction
4 Rack
4 Hymn
4 Smallpox
4 Ritual
4 Inquisition
2 Push
2 Innocent Blood
3 Ravens Crime
1 Netherspirit
In hindsight there should probably be a few copies of Thoughtseize in there but you get the idea
A friend of mine has The Abyss though so I guess I might playtest it and just borrow it from him if I can (so I don't need to spend another €350 on 1 card), and if playtesting would indeed indicate it's better than just a 4th Liliana.
I do have Karakas in my Enchantress collection btw so I might try that it does sound weird in a BB-costed deck though, but I guess that's the same for Tabernacle. At least it makes mana without Urborg.
A Geier Reach Sanitarium could also be okay in this slot, being able to keep your opponents hellbent in their draw step with Chains, and to create some virtual card advantage with Crucible of Nether Spirit. Although putting cards in your opponents' yard is also risky in Legacy.
Another question: do you feel like a small number of fetchlands might do anything? Yesterday I ran a (totally different) list with 2 Polluted Deltas because I didn't have enough nice/matching basic Swamps and also because of Tombstalker and Fatal Push; and I couldn't Fatally Push an opponent's Leovold for 3-4 turns because I never got to trigger Revolt.
The life loss (and being a bit deader to Blood Moon Stompy) are real though in this deck; but also with Crucible of Worlds it gives a nice grinding engine thinning your deck and getting a mana advantage in control mirrors. (and protects against Jace Fateseal killing you
So it's mainly a small % play that may sometimes be relevant in a positive way, and sometimes negatively affect you when you lose because of the -1 life or Blood Moon. Mhh.
I had been thinking about that recently as well, after hitting up this old list: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5868&d=234074&f=LE
Admittedly that's only 4-Rack though but at least I now finally have that list complete since yesterday with some sweet Antiquities Racks. I still need to playtest it tough and figure out how the Fetch + Sensei's D Top engine should be replaced (and whether any amount of fetches are still necessary for Tombstalker/a Fatal Push upgrade even without Top).
It does run some ground beaters though instead of the other 4 'Racks'/Afflictions. Rack redirects to PWs so I guess that's the better of the 2.
Fjaunir;
You should definitely playtest 'The Abyss', I am sure you gonna like it. I must warn you though, people will get mad at you!
'Karakas' would be more mana efficient than 'Tabernacle', while keeping Thalias, Leovolds, Griselbands and Emrakuls at bay. It works really well, even naturally tapping for white mana, which we could use as colorless.
The idea of adding Fetches to trigger Fatal Push's revolt is pretty interesting, although I tend to use 'Fatal Push' to remove the most annoying and played 1 or 2 mana creatures ( Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, Tarmagoyf, Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster Mage ) while using 'Innocent Blood' and 'SmallPox' to deal with the rest of'em, since most likely the opponent won't have more than 1 or 2 creatures in play at the same time. Help me to think of more relevant creatures with converted mana cost bigger than 2, besides Leovold, then we could reason if adding Fetches would be cost-efficient or not. I can't think of any, honestly.
Slowly, our deck is becoming stronger, fellas! Let's Pox'em.
Best Regards;
For Rack Pox in Legacy this thread is worth studying;
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...?4300-Deck-Pox
Thought-Knot Seer, although Push is kinda weak against Chalice on 1 out of Eldrazi. Vendilion Clique, which isn't played *a lot* but most people who run it will sideboard it in against me and rightfully so. This deck has a lot of sorcery speed removal spells, so flashing in a Clique EOT and attack me/Liliana with it without having a way to kill it immediately, has lost me enough games.
Death and Taxes also runs some 3- and 4-drops these days, most of which are maybe not the best for Pushing (Recruiter, Palace Jailer), but Flickerwisp can also be annoying as a 3/1 flying attacker.
Oh, Eldrazi. I do hate them, a lot.
I will give this idea a shot. The drawback is not that big and could potentially help us in tight situations. Our conversation also made me think with more care about 'Karakas', I think I will put a copy on the sideboard, heck, maybe even in the mainboard (replacing a copy of 'Cabal Pit', for instance), let's see how it behaves.
I find it amazing how our deck is like a 'sorcery-speed control deck", don't you think?
Once again, thanks a lot for your insights!
Best regards.
I think Cabal Pit could still work; it would actually also work better with Fetchlands, making it easier to have threshold.
EDIT: only now I see you originally played 2 Cabal Pits. Yeah I think 1 is probably enough, otherwise there will be a lot of damage being dealt to ourselves^^
In a vacuum yes but it also dies more easily (Kolaghans Command / Ancient Grudge)
The reason why I like the Rack version is the following:
- You have 8 unblockable Delver of Secrets so you are more likely to avoid the canonical Pox problem of letting your opponent topdeck into a victory, because you just clock them much faster
- Pox is an attrition deck that is trying to play a game where both players have as few resources as possible, so it makes way more sense to have win conditions that only cost 1 mana and not things like Ob Nixilis or Nether Void or whatever
The 4 Raven's Crime is also very interesting, my intuition is not to play so many copies of this card because the retrace ability is redundant in multiples but it highlights the importance of being able to trade excess lands for the opponent's resources (which you are more willing to do in this version because you don't have any expensive winconditions)
Hi, all. Im on the MUD thread more than here, but ive been a bg pox player since just before the dig through omniscience era. I thought id post my most recent list for consideration. Bg has slightly better matches vs a lot of bad mono black matches, and it might be cool for you all to have something to throw darts at. If you take out a couple of cards, of course the deck is less expensive, but also less effective. Sadly, bg pox is about as expensive as mono black, in some builds even more. Best.
Deck: Legacy Loam Pox 1-23-18.dec
Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:1
1 Nether Spirit
Artifacts:3
3 Mox Diamond
Sorceries:13
1 Raven's Crime
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Worm Harvest
Instants:10
3 Crop Rotation
2 Entomb
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
Enchantments:4
2 Exploration
2 Sylvan Library
Others:3
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands:27
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Swamp
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
1 Necroplasm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Coffin Purge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Drop of Honey
1 Bitterblossom
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Engineered Plague
1 The Abyss
Other cards to consider include collective brutality, and mirri's guile. I also am giving serious consideration to a second bog in the board instead of coffin purge.
We speak for no one, we hear no one, we see no one
I like your list, it's "landsy". If I made it, I'd go with Mirri's Guile over Sylvan Library just to have more first turn plays...
Btw I totally forgot about seeing this list a while ago, might give you some inspiration as well: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17879&d=310803&f=LE
Yep something like that would be good
I'm not convinced Bob is good as the only creature in a Smallpox deck and everything else is basically what I suggested, sans Ritual, and I agree that Ritual might be wrong in an attrition deck.
The funniest thing to me about that list is 4x Mutavault and 0x Mishra's Factory
A) There's no tribal synergy so Mishra's Factory is just a strict upgrade (unless you're really scared of artifact destruction)
B) There's Engineered Plague in the sideboard which gives Mutavault -1/-1 whether you name Elf or Goblin or Human or anything
C) You can't even say it's for budget reasons because Factory is like $1 (and Mutavault is $15-20)
It's probably just a modern player (modern 8rack plays mutavault) that either didnt know Mishra/Mishra being better/didnt have Mishra available in time in his collection?
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