[Primer/Deck] Pox

[Hardcore]

You forgot -Bojuka Bog.

I am not very happy with the suggestion of cutting Rituals. They are needed for turn one play of planeswalkers, or buried alive. Of course, one also need mana producing lands to cast those. This, however, is less likely as the entire mana base is shaky.

"Greed is good" does not apply to mana bases.

[kombatkiwi]

Recently Andrea Mengucci has made a pox video for CFB

List was
1 Bog
2 Maze
4 Factory
1 Tabernacle
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg
9 Swamp
1 Snow Swamp

2 Scroll
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
1 Bitterblossom
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Crucible
1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana
1 Beseech the Queen

SB
1 Duress
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Brutality
4 Leyline
2 Massacre
1 Karakas
2 Needle
1 Bomb

It's similar to the 5-0 List from about 2 month ago played by ozmanozguney
The differences are
-1 Spirit
-1 Nethervoid
-1 Mikokoro
+1 Crucible
+1 Bitterblossom
+1 Maze

SB
-1 Duress
-4 Bob
-1 Deluge
+1 Chains
+2 Massacre
+2 Brutality
+1 Karakas

2-0 Grixis Delver
1-2 Lejay Omnistrix
2-0 Infect
2-0 Grixis Control
0-2 Aggro Loam / Punishing Abzan

Notes:
Sinkhole seems like the worst card in the maindeck but is perfectly serviceable
The deck seems pretty light on black sources, I would consider cutting the 2nd maze for ifnir deadlands
Tabernacle and Bitterblossom are pretty good cards individually but it's an impressive nonbo combined
Scroll is so good

[Mr. Safety]

Pox won a GP trial at Richmond also:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=19982&d=329612&f=LE

[Hardcore]

Tomb of Urami was pretty useless.

[fluuu]

I preffer toxic deluge over bontu's. The tapping land effect is worst than the life lose.

[kombatkiwi]

Pox won a GP trial at Richmond also:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=19982&d=329612&f=LE

Interesting
So compared with the Mengucci List (for example)
-1 Maze
-1 Tomb of Urami
-1 Bitterblossom
-1 Crucible
-1 Innocent Blood
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 R Bomb
-4 IOK
+4 Thoughtseize
+3 Ritual
+1 Bontus
+1 Chains
+1 Totem
+1 Nethervoid

Plus some SB changes
I'm pretty sure I would rather play Ensnaring Bridge main than Bontus Reckoning
I think 1 Crucible is probably enough
Still not sure how much I like Ritual/Totem/BB/Chains

Tomb of Urami was pretty good I thought? In the spot where he drew it, it was like "if I activate this I might win immediately or I might lose if my opponent has removal", which looks kind of bad, but that's a pretty huge upside to what is at worst a nonbasic swamp
I guess if you would rather a more conservative option you can play e.g. Spawning Pool over it

[Mr. Safety]

If Tomb is worth a slot, than Tombstalker is worth a slot. Yes it produces black mana, but that is a small thing. I would probably look to Phyrexian Totem before Tomb of Urami; same clock, less risk except against Lightning Bolts. I would probably even play something like Guardian Idol, Cradle of the Accursed, or Dread Statuary before Tomb of Urami. Slower, yes, but without the risk of all-in (if Crucible isn't online.)

[kombatkiwi]

If Tomb is worth a slot, than Tombstalker is worth a slot. Yes it produces black mana, but that is a small thing. I would probably look to Phyrexian Totem before Tomb of Urami; same clock, less risk except against Lightning Bolts. I would probably even play something like Guardian Idol, Cradle of the Accursed, or Dread Statuary before Tomb of Urami. Slower, yes, but without the risk of all-in (if Crucible isn't online.)

If you're in a situation where it's such a risk then you just don't activate it, and then it's basically no different to Ifnir Deadlands
Saying that 'Well if I would play Urami why not just play Tombstalker' is silly.
Besides putting creatures in your 60 making Nether Spirit worse, obviously having the ability to just be a land is worth a lot, otherwise why not cut Mishra's Factory for Carnophage?
None of the other cards you mention help make BB on turn 1-2.

Like assuming you never activate it in any fair matchup and you only ever use it vs a hellbent combo opponent, that still seems worth it just because the opportunity cost is so low

[Mr. Safety]

If you're in a situation where it's such a risk then you just don't activate it, and then it's basically no different to Ifnir Deadlands
Saying that 'Well if I would play Urami why not just play Tombstalker' is silly.
Besides putting creatures in your 60 making Nether Spirit worse, obviously having the ability to just be a land is worth a lot, otherwise why not cut Mishra's Factory for Carnophage?
None of the other cards you mention help make BB on turn 1-2.

Like assuming you never activate it in any fair matchup and you only ever use it vs a hellbent combo opponent, that still seems worth it just because the opportunity cost is so low

That's reasonable. I just figured the intent was to have a faster finisher, and if that's the case Tombstalker is also fairly low risk. Tomb of Urami is good in the situation you mentioned, but how often will that happen? The metagame has become overwhelmingly fair, which is good for Pox if the top deck is RUG Delver but bad if the top decks remain Miracles and Stoneblade.

[Hardcore]

Tomb of Urami is a kids threat: "so cool, and hopefully my opponent has no answers, or cannot exploit my suicide Armageddon."

The card requires spells played to clear the way for it. Other threats, like tombstalker, does not. Thus it cannot turn a game, only seal the win once the deck gets there.

[kombatkiwi]

The card requires spells played to clear the way for it. Other threats, like tombstalker, does not. Thus it cannot turn a game, only seal the win once the deck gets there.

The card requires spells played to clear the way for it.

Almost every single spell in the deck is disruption. You aren't beating Gurmag Angler with Cursed Scroll or Factory either, which is why the deck plays other spells to 'clear the way', and uses Factory and Scroll to 'seal the win once the deck gets there'. Urami is not unique in this regard.

AND you're still missing the point that Urami doesn't necessarily take the slot of a threat (like Tombstalker) because at any time you don't want to use Tombstalker, Tombstalker is a brick. Anytime you don't want to use Urami, it's a swamp.
If spawning pool came into play untapped it would be auto-include 2 copies minimum because at worst you can just cut swamps for it
You can think of Urami like this, but not so good in multiples (because of the pain from tapping it and because it's legendary)

[Mr. Safety]

Almost every single spell in the deck is disruption. You aren't beating Gurmag Angler with Cursed Scroll or Factory either, which is why the deck plays other spells to 'clear the way', and uses Factory and Scroll to 'seal the win once the deck gets there'. Urami is not unique in this regard.

AND you're still missing the point that Urami doesn't necessarily take the slot of a threat (like Tombstalker) because at any time you don't want to use Tombstalker, Tombstalker is a brick. Anytime you don't want to use Urami, it's a swamp.
If spawning pool came into play untapped it would be auto-include 2 copies minimum because at worst you can just cut swamps for it
You can think of Urami like this, but not so good in multiples (because of the pain from tapping it and because it's legendary)

I understand what you're saying, but there is almost never a time when you *don't* want that 1-of Tombstalker. One slot does not make or break this deck. Once Pox has established a depraved game state, it needs to finish the game. Tombstalker does that very quickly, without sacrificing your ability to play the game afterwards like Tomb of Urami. I'm not really disagreeing with you, I think your points for Tomb are valid, but I think the trap is to treat Tomb as a threat when in most games it will just be a land. Treat it accordingly.

[OmniStrata]

Urami works under protection and during mana starved game states. When your Swords to Plowshares costs 4 cmc under Nether Void and Sinkhole, Wasteland, Poxing is a thing, Urami causes scoops but yes, it's a tall order. Only 2 games Urami got the win for me. And both times Crucible was not available. Nether Void + Urami = fun. Current list doesn't run him though because risk/reward is bad on the whole.

[Mr. Safety]

Urami works under protection and during mana starved game states. When your Swords to Plowshares costs 4 cmc under Nether Void and Sinkhole, Wasteland, Poxing is a thing, Urami causes scoops but yes, it's a tall order. Only 2 games Urami got the win for me. And both times Crucible was not available. Nether Void + Urami = fun. Current list doesn't run him though because risk/reward is bad on the whole.

The real take-away: Nether Void wins games. Factory wins in that scenario as well. Maybe a little slower, but just as inevitable.

[Hardcore]

Also Smallpox decks are already very vulnerable to back to basics and blood moon.
Now with no DRSs those cards could become more popular. Among cards to cut for swamps, in that scenario, would be Urami for sure (he seems to be fringe thing anyway).

[OmniStrata]

The real take-away: Nether Void wins games. Factory wins in that scenario as well. Maybe a little slower, but just as inevitable.

If only Factories came with Shadow or flying as well. With Maze of Ith, they do get vigilance... sorta.

[Hardcore]

If only Factories came with Shadow or flying as well. With Maze of Ith, they do get vigilance... sorta.

Well, Crucible turn them into bloodghasts 😀, no haste but that landfall recursion is nice.

[mkalevv]

If you are on B/G ...

Assassin's Trophy

Preorder price is out of line but still, I'll have to pick up a 4-of I think

[LOLWut]

If you are on B/G ...

Assassin's Trophy

Preorder price is out of line but still, I'll have to pick up a 4-of I think

I don't play Pox, but don't you not want to give your opponent lands?

[mkalevv]

I don't play Pox, but don't you not want to give your opponent lands?

Many legacy decks play minimal to no basics. Even considering that, smallpox, wasteland, sinkhole, or even hymn get rid of lands.