I see you cut to only 2 Rituals...with higher cost cards they become even more important. I think if there is a concession to playing further up the curve we also have to concede that mana acceleration is needed. Pox is mana-hungry as it is, even if you top out at 3, simply because we kill our own lands and Wasteland is really a spell.
On a positive note, I traded into a Liliana the Lost Hope this weekend, excited to see what it does for the deck. Still haven't gotten Karns, and at this point I might just wait out the Standard season until it rotates.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Lost hope is used in the sideboard by some, have i seen. Myself I keep it in the main since i have one or two slots available. It is quite a lock to have both in play at the same time. LotV is generally better, but LtLH is better in specifik matches. Lost Hope also help upping the threat count in the deck which is a plus.
Where I'm short on Veils right now I'll probably fill in the gaps with Lost Hope and a big Pox.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
yeah i think more rituals might have been better. originally had Lake of the Dead in there but it felt so clunky. The best games with the deck where when it played like regular pox tbh tho. Liliana, Death's Majesty is cool but really just a token generator and way expensive for her effect without Braids to capitalize off it.
Maybe if I went all in on the Lake plan and played more Grave Titans and Wurmcoils or something... I dunno. I'm disenchanted, prolly go back to my Necropolis Fiends and Cursed Scrolls
LiLH is a beast, I agree that I'd rather do something like 3-1 Lotv/LiLH than just 4x Lotv. That said I'd rather do 4-1, since Veil is just so good. Big Pox as a Lili replacement is interesting... I'd think you'd want something repeatable to lock them out, maybe Bottomless Pit/Necrogen Mists for cards or Scroll for creatures. Big Pox should do the trick though.
Btw, did y'all know that Japanese Cursed Scrolls have a bizarre misprint where they have a 2 cmc activation cost?? Kinda weird.
Don't know if I want to play it and explain to my opponent every time and have them think I'm trying to cheat or just jam it anyway for misprint cool factor... so many decisions in life
Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest
Pairs best with german Rath's Edge. But yeah I wouldn't play either. Confusing opponents with misprints doesn't add to the fun for me.
Currently running 3/2 split of Liliana of the Veil and Liliana Last Hope . Very Glad we can run both on field thanks to rules. I'm guessing LtLH would be extremely dangerous in a Contamination Pox flavor or even Stax Pox!! ooh the ideas Liliana, Death's Majesty maybe incorporated in a "Godzilla Pox" Shell with gigantic cmc threats of Zombie type. Grave Titan comes to mind alongside Scourge of Nel Toth. I too shall wait on Karn. Considering Liliana's many flavors and versions, I don't think a card drawing token generator is necessary. Just trade less resources for your foes' cards.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
yeah prolly won't play them. but they're cool nonetheless
@OmniStrata - if you like 'Godzilla Pox' check out this list, i linked it before but it's pretty slick: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18983&d=319416&f=LE. Lake of the Dead my friend. Tho i disagree on Karn, he's proven to be a real beast for me, not least because he comes in with virtually 6 loyalty.
We got another top8 up there! We're officially as cool as Food Chain and Goblins right now. The latest is again from Clayton Levi, who has 3 top8s with Pox in the last couple months, pretty impressive. http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19133&d=320904&f=LE
4 Bloodghast. 4 Sinkhole. So more aggressive than many lists, though not as aggressive as Hardcore's builds. No Fetches for the Bloodghasts, which is interesting. Sideboard seems kind of standard. Not sure what else to say, the discard stuff seems more or less standard, though very few 1cmc discard.
Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest
That's a list I can definitely go with. It would be nice to read a report from Mr. Levi one of these days. Pox harder, people!
Was this list ever discussed?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15716&d=296249&f=LE
I've been looking for a giggles list and this covers my entire wish list and santa's naughty list, too...
I'm 2 Abyss short but I can work at getting one.
Gonna try this version but maybe shove Karn in there somewhere...
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Geier Reach Sanitarium
4 Mishra's Factory
8 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tabernacle ? why not with urborg, too
4 Wasteland
1 Nether Spirit
1 Beseech the Queen
2 Chainer's Edict
4 Smallpox
1 POX or Karn
1 worm harvest or Karn
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mox Diamond
2 Smokestack
1 The Abyss
SIDEBOARD
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Plague
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Hypnotic Specter
4 Leyline of the Void
Thought I should post my current list. It's good vs Delver and Miracles so far. Obvs very bad against the one chap running MD Lingering Souls and Young Pyromancer..... and Burn. Urgh... Burn.
Lands
10 Swamp
4 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thought Seize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Collective Brutality
1 Masterminds Acquisition*
Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Artifacts
3 Cursed Scroll
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crucible of Worlds
Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Nether Void
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 The Abyss
2 Bitterblossom
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Pithing Needle
Thoughts
I like the maindeck a lot. The Ensnaring Bridges are great, as is NEW Liliana. Collective Brutality gives the deck a much needed direct kill spell, life gain and discard. I might try a third.
Cutting Sinkhole was heart breaking but the right decision. With all these Deathrites running about and how low the ground (CMC wise) most Legacy decks are now just makes the card not very good. It doesn't even punish 4C control and is a pretty shoddy top deck (something the next card is trying to fix)
*Masterminds Acquisition. Never cast it, and tbh its never going to be any good. No idea why I'm playing this. Oh wait, I'm playing Pox, making poor decisions with deck building is in my nature . This should probably be something impactful like another Planeswalker or a clock like Nether Spirit. Interesting aside - Mastermind's Acquisition 'might' be playable if you are running free spells in your deck. Slaughter Pact, Snuff Out and Massacre come to mind. As it is, taking two turns to do anything useful is just not good enough in Legacy. And if the opponent is allowing us that time we have probably got them locked under Liliana anyway!
The manabase/spell lands, has been REALLY good. Only been mana screwed on a mulligan and poor keep. The 4 Urborgs offset the 2 Tabernacles nicely and they give us so many extra turns against fast aggressive hands or decks that can go wide of our 141 sac effects. 6 Legendary lands hasn't been a problem with all the Smallpox and Liliana we run.
The Sideboard I am also happy with. Lots of cards to bring in vs Miracles, a good range of sweepers and with the MD Bridges we have a little more space for a bit of spice (looking at you Abyss). It is probably worth looking at improving the Burn, UR Delver matchup in some way as this kind of deck always seems to be the Achilles heel of Pox (other than the fact we rely on top decks and sometimes just self implode).
Hope you find something useful in my list and if you have the cards you should definitely give the core of the deck a go.
Sib
since we are posting lists right now, not quite a quad laser but darn close.
business - 24
4 big pox (poxing as hard as I can!)
4 small pox
4 inquisition of kozeliek
4 hymn to tourach
4 innocent blood
4 shrieking affliction
my peeps - 11
4 lili of the veil
3 lili, last hope
4 bloodghast
my real estate - 25
4 wasteland
4 factory
3 urborg
14 swamp
thinking about switching out 1-2 wastelands/factories for an additional swamp. or maybe I just need to add the 4th urborg. The BBB and BB sometimes becomes an issue with this list.
not to be a total "yes man" I am of the agreement that sinkhole and dark rits needs to go. that hurt my soul a little bit, but I think the deck does do better and with the 4 big pox added in, it's probably even more LD than it was with the sinkholes. It also feels sacrilege to have a mono black deck without the rits, but it seems to work too, as does being on the play, at least against the G/R stompy I've been testing it against it. I just got my lili's in the mail, so excited to test it. Previous versions were kind of all over the place, with racks in addition to 3balls/sinkholes, so it was a bag of mixed signals. Liking the above build and like the ghasts too.
Short list of possible inclusions:
Collective brutality (currently in my reanimator deck)
raven's crime
beseech the queen.
This guy effectively replaced Adachi for me as my Pox Hero!! Those Sinkholes!! Bloodghast + Cabal Therapy = CARDGASM!! Be wary of Brainstorm fake outs. One of my friends pulled a fast one where he dropped a Force of Will early game on the table... Only when I gave him the Therapy, he had no other cards to pitch it to! Gotta give him credit for that lol moment. That's my new 1 cmc discard mainstay. Very devastating when your opponent gives you that, "Did you see my hand?" face after you nail 2+ cards on a blind guess.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
This is why I raise my eyebrows at all of the Beseech the Queen lists. I'm not sure how spending a turn tutoring up a bullet is helpful in a deck that aggressively discards its hand and sacrifices its lands. I can't imagine having the mana or time to invest. Clearly its working for some folks, and I love the card in Mono Black Tron for modern. In fact I'm adding Mastermind's Acquisition to that deck as well. Anyways, about Pox:
Mini report: I played Pox at my LGS last night, its a small event with a subset of regulars, all who play pet decks, so its an interesting field. We have a regular D+T, Storm, U/B Reanimator, R/W Prison, U/R Delver, Nic Fit and Robot Stompy. I try to keep my deck tuned for a larger event, but I vary my sideboard for the local, since no one is on Lands, Delver, or Pile. For a larger event I like 4 leylines in the board for Lands, B/R Reanimator, and Dredge, all of which are very hard to impossible without them. My current list and SB:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Pithing Needle
4 Hymn to TOurach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Collective Brutality
1 Bitterblossom
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
3 Collective Brutality
3 Pithing Needle
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
Round 1 I played against Storm Guy. He's on his own special blend of ANT/TES/TPS/IGG/Busted stuff. The last time we played, he Turn One'd me game 1, I turn 1 Trinisphere, turn 3 Liliana'd him game 2, and he Turn One'd me game 3, so I wanted a real match this time. Game 1 I Ritual Lili on turn one, followed by a ratchet bomb that got a petal and a diamond, followed by a slow grind against his hand and lands. I ultimated that Liliana twice before finally killing him with Factories. He's a great sport and a Storm scholar, and was willing to play to his outs no matter how small. Game 2 he duresses a Liliana. I follow with a thoughtseize and a Brutality, but he is able to chain rituals a few turns later. My hand was powerful, but slow. I needed him to stumble I think, but it was a hard hand to mulligan(I should have). Game 3 I had turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Trinisphere, turn 4 Bitterblossom. It was pretty gross. 1-0 (2-1)
Round 2 I played against Grixis Delver. This was Reanimator Guy. He has a VERY nice U/B Reanimator list (Signed Reanimates, Miscut Duals, Etc) He is also known to play Eldrazi Stompy, since U/B Reanimator in not great at the moment. When I showed up he was furtively sleeving something up, so I was suspicious. He wins the die roll and plays Fetch, Volcanic, Delver. Excellent. I Ritual...no daze, Ritual...no daze...Liliana....no force....Ratchet Bomb. I tick up Lili pitching Wasteland and tick up the bomb. He draws, delver misses, attacks Lili, bolts lili. From that point its easy. I just kill every land he plays, the bomb is there to discourage him from casting a deathrite, his delver keeps not flipping. eventually I have 5 of his lands in the yard and resolve a lili and he packs it in. Game 2 he scoops after I kill his first 2 threats, he Probes me and sees Collective Brutality, Innocent Blood, Innocent Blood, and Toxic Deluge. This is how i want the match to go, and (of course allowing for variance) this is generally how the match does go. I think the Delver matchup can be a reason to play the deck, and this match reinforced this. We were chatting after and he said, "That was the easiest match I've lost in a while" 2-0 (4-1)
Round 3 I played against Deadguy (B/W StoneBlade) This is a guy who plays Eldrazi and Taxes in Modern, so I was not surprised to see a Thalia deck in his hands. I generally feel confident in creature matchups, but Stoneforge Mystic is my least favorite creature to play against (other than Goblin Guide..) The ability to 2-for 1 and then have a very hard to deal with permanent is often too much for Pox. The fact that this deck can nail you with Thoughtseize, Hymn and Liliana just compounds it. I lost in 2 quick ones where he tore apart my hand and was left with a Batterskull. I had boarded in more removal and pithing needles, and I cut Rituals and Sinkholes. It's possible that I need to leave in sinkhole to keep him off Batterskull shenanigans, since I can usually deal with the Germ/Mystic/Thalia, but bounce and replay is often too much. Anyone have any insight on fighting Equipment strategies? My removal is usually enough vs. D+T, but adding in the Discard for Deadguy or the Counterspell/Discard of Deathblade makes it really tough. 2-1 (4-3)
I got some store credit for my trouble, and I wanted to share because the storm and Delver matchups were very good examples of how my deck is supposed to work, and the Deadguy matchup is one I don't think about and I'm looking for insight.
Karn was great. I mulliganed him away round 1, Boarded him out round 2, and and never saw him round 3!
Have a nice day y'all!
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
So you've never drawn a Dark Ritual mid-game that was otherwise useless? It feeds busted early plays and maintains mid-range plays like Nether Void even after sacrificing lands. Without library manipulation you have to either play an uber-streamlined list with all 4-ofs for consistency...or play singletons with a way to get them reliably. Beseech does that. If you're trying Beseech without quad-Ritual, of course it will seem slow. In theory, Beseech is actually *very* good for Pox. In practice? It's a little rough, but better than doing nothing in the mid-game, which happens a ton.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Beseech the Queen seems junk with Ritual because you can't search for anything that you can't cast off your lands anyway
Maybe for finding turn 1 Surgical or something it's _okay_
@ntropy Round 2 game 1 I'm pretty sure you're supposed to -2 your Liliana there
I'm a bit skeptical of the Last Hope decks with no creatures. The -2 ability is such an important aspect of the card, when your only target is Bloodghast it half feels like you're just using it as an Underworld Dreams that dies to Gurmag Angler. Of course it can kill X/1 creatures too but then is it better than Cursed Scroll?
4 mana may be too steep for this deck, but recurring an ETB-ability creature might make that more useful (Ravenous Chupecabra or whatever). Maybe there are others that are more useful? Or, in a similar vein, a creature with a strong sac effect.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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