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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Pox

  1. #2701

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Also, found a very compelling reason to run the second nether void. Turns out that if you hit Liliana before they get to five lands, then miracles just can't win the game.
    Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
    —Ratadrabik of Urborg

  2. #2702
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    If you have lot of contrôle deck like in my meta is a absolute 😉

  3. #2703
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    That Ob Nixilis list is interesting. I suppose that was a very controllish meta as the deck has no Innocent Bloods. Is Innocent Blood no longer mandatory or was that simply a non-agro meta?

  4. #2704

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I am not very high on innocent blood right now, as most of the decks where we want to get creatures off the table that agressively, they have enough creatures to blank blood by the mid-game. I think the general meta is shifting towards wide or recursive removal, a'la deluge, ob, night of soul's betrayal, black sun's zenith, scroll, abyss, with a little suplimental point and click on the lines of murderous cut, victim of night, abrupt decay, dreadbore, vindicate, dismember, ghastly demise, or such. I also think we need to look at actual means of acquiring honest card advantage a'la ob, crucible, dust bowl/drownyard temple, sea-gate wreckage, so as not to get buried by the jace/loan decks
    Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
    —Ratadrabik of Urborg

  5. #2705
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Quitrex View Post
    I am not very high on innocent blood right now, as most of the decks where we want to get creatures off the table that agressively, they have enough creatures to blank blood by the mid-game. I think the general meta is shifting towards wide or recursive removal, a'la deluge, ob, night of soul's betrayal, black sun's zenith, scroll, abyss, with a little suplimental point and click on the lines of murderous cut, victim of night, abrupt decay, dreadbore, vindicate, dismember, ghastly demise, or such. I also think we need to look at actual means of acquiring honest card advantage a'la ob, crucible, dust bowl/drownyard temple, sea-gate wreckage, so as not to get buried by the jace/loan decks
    I feel like Innocent Blood is a pretty integral piece to the deck. It only costs one black which is very important with all of the two mana spells we want to play. It deals with Mother of Runes, TNN, big threats, shroud, and redirect effects with very few downsides. Good targeted removal costs 2 which is a crowded slot and all of that removal is still dead to a Marit Lage. Pyromancer and Mentor are good against Innocent Blood, but those cards lose to Cursed Scroll anyways. I do think there is a slot for Murderous Cut, Spinning Darkness, or Toxic Deluge main deck, but I probably wouldn't drop below three copies of Innocent Blood for them.

  6. #2706

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiptoon View Post
    I feel like Innocent Blood is a pretty integral piece to the deck. It only costs one black which is very important with all of the two mana spells we want to play. It deals with Mother of Runes, TNN, big threats, shroud, and redirect effects with very few downsides. Good targeted removal costs 2 which is a crowded slot and all of that removal is still dead to a Marit Lage. Pyromancer and Mentor are good against Innocent Blood, but those cards lose to Cursed Scroll anyways. I do think there is a slot for Murderous Cut, Spinning Darkness, or Toxic Deluge main deck, but I probably wouldn't drop below three copies of Innocent Blood for them.
    Toxic Deluge and Night of souls betrayal are good against everything on that list, and are card advantage bc they can take out multiple threats, Innocent blood is not good at all against Marit Lage bc of being a sorcery.

    Innocent blood is great when you need tempo but the other choices are better if you want card advantage. Pick which you need for your meta. They are all good cards.

  7. #2707
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by jredelstein View Post
    Toxic Deluge and Night of souls betrayal are good against everything on that list, and are card advantage bc they can take out multiple threats, Innocent blood is not good at all against Marit Lage bc of being a sorcery.

    Innocent blood is great when you need tempo but the other choices are better if you want card advantage. Pick which you need for your meta. They are all good cards.
    I like both of those cards, but they're slow. Unless you have a dark ritual or mox they don't see the battlefield until turns 3 or 4. Pox needs early cheap removal against fast tempo decks like Delver and the three main tribal decks, especially Elves, otherwise it's easy to fall too far behind early.

    Reid Duke wrote a cool article about high impact cards. He was main decking two Nights' and one Plague to blank all of the X/1 creatures in decks. It's awesome being able to turn those cards into dead draws, but I think you need 1 mana removal in Legacy unless you have something that's recurrable.

  8. #2708

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    To be fair he does have 2 copies of funeral charm which can kill x/1 creatures. He also has 2 ratchet bombs main which can 2 for 1 if not more an opponent. He has a tabernacle for massive hindering of creature strategies. Plus the usual smallpox, scroll and liliana. I wouldn't say he is particularly light in creature removal.

  9. #2709
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    After weighing Innocent Blood against the likes of Vapor Snag, Giant Growth (lol), Lightning Bolt, and Swords to Plowshares, the sorcery speed is a freaking huge setback. Geth's Verdict/Diabolic Edict is the next best thing but 2 mana to cast for me is 1 mana too many. I need to find a way to squeeze in Funeral Charms, Vendetta, or Contagion into my build... facepalm*

    And yes, counting Cursed Scroll as CA and as 'instant speed' removal for weenies is great. I just need to find a way where I stop running into 'not enough mana to activate Cursed Scroll while punching opponent with another threat' problem.

    I remember in the original Clark Kant thread saying Cursed Scroll is a terrible idea and now, with Liliana, it's now viable but still, if your opponent manages to stuff Liliana with a Pithing Needle or just kills / exiles her, the CS seems to become very difficult to use if you find yourself topdecking things you can't play right away. Or worse, I find the 'cast spell or use CS' dilemma happening more than I'd like it to. Can't do both unfortunately unless you're not running Mishra's and Wastelands. Or the game goes crazy long.

  10. #2710

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Greetings everyone. I have come to ask you all a stupid question, as stupid questions are all I know.

    Is it possible to play this deck without the Nether Void and The Abyss? Or is it maybe possible to play Trinisphere as an alternative? Or am I just an idiot?

  11. #2711
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I went 3-1 today which is okay.

    My first opponent was a storm deck, 2-1.
    I hit him with wasteland, hymn, pox and lili, iirc. Tombstalker raced him down.
    Second duel he played goblin warrens and I found no answer.
    Third duel i played chalice for zero and followed up with lilliana.
    He got stuck with one or two cards in hand with few lands in play. He conceded after some turns.

    Next i fought Eldrazi. I didn't draw any wastelands despite including them specifically for this match upx-(
    Thought-knot Seer probably won the game for my opponent. Nasty creature.
    Toxic deluge was definitely not good here. Such aggro deck is like Burn but with creatures it appears.
    0-2

    One of the local players participated with a humility deck. Probably as a counter to Eldrazis. It was probably a home brew.
    (Perhaps his deck is best described as Counterbalance-humility-lingering souls-Bitterblossom-jitte deck.)
    The first duel i tried cut him off from mana to play his humility, but failed. One TB and a Nihilith got very small.
    I can't recall the second duel.
    The third however got to time, but despite having blockers he eventually died to his bitterblossom and my shrieking affliction.
    2-1

    Last a real surprise win vs Reanimator. First duel he failed to get things going. I put lili in play and forced him to sac Griselbrand. He drew his cards in response but found no force.
    I don't know what he had had in his almost full hand but was happy i didn't lose as i had expected.
    Next duel i began with Leyline of the Void in play, a possibility he overlooked when he sideboarded.
    2-0


    4 Bloodghast
    3 tombstalker
    4 nihilith

    4 Smallpox
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Pox
    4 contagion
    3 liliana of the veil
    2 sensei's divining top
    2 shrieking affliction
    3 toxic deluge
    13 Swamp
    4 bloodstained mire
    3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
    4 wasteland

    Sideboard

    4 leyline of the void
    4 chalice of the void
    4 engineered plague
    1 liliana of the veil
    2 pithing needle
    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    hardcore is our resident aggro pox master, hopefully he can help you

    "Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux

  12. #2712

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by AceOfJacks View Post
    Greetings everyone. I have come to ask you all a stupid question, as stupid questions are all I know.

    Is it possible to play this deck without the Nether Void and The Abyss? Or is it maybe possible to play Trinisphere as an alternative? Or am I just an idiot?
    As great as those cards are, they aren't necessary. They're just nice to have.

  13. #2713

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Ok. Follow up stupid question.

    Has Waste Not been tested in any builds of this deck? It could be a potential win condition with Liliana and such.

  14. #2714

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by AceOfJacks View Post
    Ok. Follow up stupid question.

    Has Waste Not been tested in any builds of this deck? It could be a potential win condition with Liliana and such.
    I know of some rack pox lists that tried it as a replacement to shrieking affliction, but it never took off

  15. #2715

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Short answer, for nether void you need some way to push mana costs up while you punish their mana. my preference after void is trinisphere, then go into sphere of resistance and/or main board chalice of the voids. as for the Abyss, it's simply there as an option to murder creatures in a repetitive manner. it can fairly easily be substituted by Night of Soul's Betrayal, as long as you tinker with your other removal spells (a murderous cut seems appropriate) accordingly to be able to hit the shard less agent + goyf style boards. Chains of Mephistopheles is in that same boat: so many of the card draw spells are one drops, chalice on one is relevant, or conversely, they're trying to efficiently chain spells together, which can be disrupted with sphere of resistance, thorn of amethyst, trinisphere etc.
    Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
    —Ratadrabik of Urborg

  16. #2716

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by AceOfJacks View Post
    Greetings everyone. I have come to ask you all a stupid question, as stupid questions are all I know.

    Is it possible to play this deck without the Nether Void and The Abyss? Or is it maybe possible to play Trinisphere as an alternative? Or am I just an idiot?
    I play GB Pox. I have never run The Abyss but I do own one. I have only run Nether Void once while Omni-Tell was big. I am a big fan of Chains of Mephistopheles which I consistently play 2 in my sideboard. But as many others have said Trinisphere is a great alternative. For expensive cards I'd say Liliana and Wasteland are must haves, the next one I'd want is The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. (My definition of expensive may be different than yours)

    Quote Originally Posted by AceOfJacks View Post
    Ok. Follow up stupid question.

    Has Waste Not been tested in any builds of this deck? It could be a potential win condition with Liliana and such.
    There was a lot of talk when Waste Not came out. Ultimately the issue is that turns 1 and 2 are critical for making your opponent discard and you can't afford to take a turn off to cast an enchantment that doesn't progress your board.

  17. #2717
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Waste Not was a waste [pun lol] but it could work with Mikokoro, Center of the Sea and Obnixilis in tandem. Force your enemy to draw in response to a discard ability.

  18. #2718

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    This is the list I came up with, and then I looked at the first post to see what I did wrong. The only cards I'm missing are 4 Sinkhole (waiting for EMA reprints in hopes that UNL ones go down a few dollars), 1 Nether Void, 1 The Abyss. 24 lands seems borderline low, but I'm going to test Drownyard to see how it plays out.

    2 Drownyard Temple
    4 Mishra's Factory
    10 Swamp
    4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Wasteland

    3 Cursed Scroll

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Innocent Blood
    1 Pox
    4 Sinkhole
    4 Smallpox
    2 Spinning Darkness
    4 Thoughtseize

    4 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Nether Spirit
    1 Nether Void


    Sideboard:
    1 Chains of Mephistopheles
    2 Engineered Plague
    2 Helm of Obedience
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 The Abyss


    If I were to cut athe Abyss and Nether Void to add Trinispheres, I thought 2 might be enough, just to save a little deck space, but maybe 3 might be right? But then I would be inclined to add Funeral Charms or Murderous Cuts, which again means I need to find what to cut.

  19. #2719
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    not sure you need rituals inthe main deck. You got plenty of turn one and two drops. You should hit mana for void easily.
    I would cut the rituals and add swamps for a more balanced mana base.
    Myself i run 13 Swamps, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 3 Urborg, 4 Wasteland (and soon a Mikokoro) to reliably get BB in my starting hand
    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    hardcore is our resident aggro pox master, hopefully he can help you

    "Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux

  20. #2720

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I agree that you want a 25th land, and that it should be a swamp. I'm not in agreement on not needing mana acceleration, but if you're considering drown yard temple, you want to at least consider mox diamond over rit. Personally I can't stand spinning darkness in this meta, i'd actually rather see contagion, murderous cut, or even disfigure/dismember in this meta, as darkness doesn't do a single thing to death rite shaman. Also, I don't care for trinisphere in the main, although it's perfectly fine in the board. the point of the nether void is to have an over the top, game ending effect, which trinisphere has noticeably more trouble being. I'd consider a second pox or a crucible in that slot, as either one can provide backbreaking advantages, while still being perfectly serviceable in the matches where they don't shine, unlike trinisphere, which actually has the capacity to hurt you more than it hurts them in half of the matches you're likely to face.
    Slight change of pace, Who all is going to columbus this weekend?
    Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
    —Ratadrabik of Urborg

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