[Primer/Deck] Pox

[Cuddlecow]

Pox friends,

I love pox and play it in casual and in tourneys. After lots of messing around with lists, I made my own list now which is a clear pox deck, on the other hand it is different enough to deserve its own thread, so I made one. It features dark confidant and other awesome additions and it can even be played red for blood moon.

I hope you don't mind for posting it here in the pox thread because I`m very curious what you think and would be happy if you post in my thread. Because it's too different to be posted here.

Cool pox list - click me

[Quitrex]

Fair, I don't actually have sinkholes in my deck at the moment, so that likely accounts for some of it. It also feels like they usually draw fairly well vs me. T1, therapy your smallpoxes, t2 double explorer or explorer, flashback, drop a finks or an ashiok, t3 sculptor or pod out the finks is obnoxious. I guess that means that another portion of my losing is that they know what I'm on and how to play against it which is less likely at a larger tourney. I've considered going b/w for a couple vindicate main and (exclusively a local meta call) 3 geddon in the board... Seems like it would slow them down.

[mykatdied]

Pox friends,

I love pox and play it in casual and in tourneys. After lots of messing around with lists, I made my own list now which is a clear pox deck, on the other hand it is different enough to deserve its own thread, so I made one. It features dark confidant and other awesome additions and it can even be played red for blood moon.

I hope you don't mind for posting it here in the pox thread because I`m very curious what you think and would be happy if you post in my thread. Because it's too different to be posted here.

Cool pox list - click me

I was looking at the list and I honestly think it needs/wants smallpox. Not a fan of rain of tears. But how has it been going for you? Also I don't agree that you can support blood moon with only 7 basic swamp alongside 10 non basics.

[OmniStrata]

Cool pox list - click me

There's no symmetrical spells in that deck. Liliana at most. No Smallpox or Pox. I'd call it 'false pox list'. I think it'd be better off posted in a standard black control thread.

Do we change the name of the deck if it's discovered that both Pox and Smallpox can no longer cut it maindeck?

[mykatdied]

There's no symmetrical spells in that deck. Liliana at most. No Smallpox or Pox. I'd call it 'false pox list'. I think it'd be better off posted in a standard black control thread.

Do we change the name of the deck if it's discovered that both Pox and Smallpox can no longer cut it maindeck?

Haha. I agree. Not to mention smallpox is likely one of our best cards in the deck. Most opponents take it if they cast discard against me.

[Cuddlecow]

OK I won't try to discuss my list anymore in this thread, but I want to correct that "no symmetrical" spells statement, wait a min.

I have Back to Basics / Blood Moon, Liliana and Chalice.
My symmetry is far heavier than traditional pox, and the same way a traditional pox player breaks the symmetry by using nether spirits or building the deck in such a way that smallpox hurts ourselves less than the opponent, I break the symmetry by not using cc1 spells and using a manabase that is acceptable under a moon effect. (Mox works under a moon!)

I think it feels very poxy it's just my symmetric effects are BtB/Chalice instead of smallpox and my breaking of symmetry as such is different, but I think these effects are very powerful and allow playing with creatures. I mean that's my opinion so don't take it too seriously. But I did put a lot effort into my starting post and hope you like it regardless of whether you appreciate the deck itself.
Best of luck!

[mykatdied]

OK I won't try to discuss my list anymore in this thread, but I want to correct that "no symmetrical" spells statement, wait a min.

I have Back to Basics / Blood Moon, Liliana and Chalice.
My symmetry is far heavier than traditional pox, and the same way a traditional pox player breaks the symmetry by using nether spirits or building the deck in such a way that smallpox hurts ourselves less than the opponent, I break the symmetry by not using cc1 spells and using a manabase that is acceptable under a moon effect. (Mox works under a moon!)

I think it feels very poxy it's just my symmetric effects are BtB/Chalice instead of smallpox and my breaking of symmetry as such is different, but I think these effects are very powerful and allow playing with creatures. I mean that's my opinion so don't take it too seriously. But I did put a lot effort into my starting post and hope you like it regardless of whether you appreciate the deck itself.
Best of luck!

Honestly the mana base is really tough to start. I don't think I would want blood moon in the list. An early blood moon with single swamp could just mean that you lose and your draws are more likely to produce non basic lands than swamps given the numbers. Back to Basics is fine as is. The only issue is opponents that run basics already, and the fact that you can play spells as you need them usually to mitigate the enchantments effect a bit. Which is fine, because it is still providing disruption. I honestly just think the deck really actually wants smallpox. I'm really not a fan of rain. I would rather run trickbind to punish my opponent wanting to fetch. It can make the back to basics even harder for them to play around.

[Epeirogeny]

I am definitely not the most experienced player around here, but I would say that 50/60 cards in the mono black pox, B&W, and B&G builds are solved builds. The last 10 slots are always debatable and changeable based on the meta. And I don't think blue ever worked unless you wanted to swap those last 10 spots with Brainstorm and Ponder for consistency. Or just throw in Sensei's Top and Counterbalance, since the combination of the two seems to be very powerful.

I think Wasteland is better than Rain of Tears simply because at 3 mana you ideally want Liliana on the field.
Chrome Mox and Dark Ritual is too much ramp for a deck that wants to play the long game. They can be dead draws the longer the game goes. And would rather take out Chrome Mox for creature removal.
Because creature removal in black like Innocent blood and... (small)pox hit both players you want less creatures.
Because you need less creatures you like manlands like Mishra's Factory as a threat.
Because you need less creatures you like Cursed Scroll as a threat (Helps ping planeswalkers too)
Since you now want to play 1 mana spells like Innocent blood, you remove Chalice. I do not like Trinisphere either because most of our spells cost less than 3


Perhaps I cannot think out of the box, but my train of thought tends to just mold into the traditional pox build. Hopefully you prove me wrong, since I love the fact that legacy is such a wide format and not always solved.

[mykatdied]

I am definitely not the most experienced player around here, but I would say that 50/60 cards in the mono black pox, B&W, and B&G builds are solved builds. The last 10 slots are always debatable and changeable based on the meta. And I don't think blue ever worked unless you wanted to swap those last 10 spots with Brainstorm and Ponder for consistency. Or just throw in Sensei's Top and Counterbalance, since the combination of the two seems to be very powerful.

I think Wasteland is better than Rain of Tears simply because at 3 mana you ideally want Liliana on the field.
Chrome Mox and Dark Ritual is too much ramp for a deck that wants to play the long game. They can be dead draws the longer the game goes. And would rather take out Chrome Mox for creature removal.
Because creature removal in black like Innocent blood and... (small)pox hit both players you want less creatures.
Because you need less creatures you like manlands like Mishra's Factory as a threat.
Because you need less creatures you like Cursed Scroll as a threat (Helps ping planeswalkers too)
Since you now want to play 1 mana spells like Innocent blood, you remove Chalice. I do not like Trinisphere either because most of our spells cost less than 3


Perhaps I cannot think out of the box, but my train of thought tends to just mold into the traditional pox build. Hopefully you prove me wrong, since I love the fact that legacy is such a wide format and not always solved.

Rather than the rack I would love to see Black Vise in this build since the goal is to hard deny any mana in order to cast spells.
Another potential win condition could be something along the lines of liliana's caress. Again, trying to keep cards in their hand they will either discard during clean up or when they are forced to discard due to our abilities.

[OmniStrata]

Solved Pox decks. Interesting. Here's what we've known to be in the vast majority of pox decks and I'm wondering, what do we remove for Collective Brutality as I'm pretty much at a loss...

1-2 Nether Spirit
1-3 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn
4 Inquisition/Thoughtseize/1 cmc discard
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's
24-26 lands

That's 50-55 cards leaving just 5-10 'flex slots'. Good heavens! What an inflexible shell the Pox deck has! It would seem that the Dark Ritual and Innocent Blood x4 are starting to 'phase out' as it were but I do love me some turn 1 Liliana on the play. I also love me some Sinkhole so I have even less flex slots than that.

What would you remove to insert Collective Brutality and maybe even a Warping Wail or 2?

[Hardcore]

Um, you actually have 34 lands there.

[OmniStrata]

Um, you actually have 34 lands there.

DOH.

I should state 16-20 mana sources as some of us run chrome moxes or Dark Rituals. I also forgot to mention Urborgs as 8 colorless mana sources is pain at times.

[Epeirogeny]

Solved Pox decks. Interesting. Here's what we've known to be in the vast majority of pox decks and I'm wondering, what do we remove for Collective Brutality as I'm pretty much at a loss...

1-2 Nether Spirit
1-3 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn
4 Inquisition/Thoughtseize/1 cmc discard
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's
24-26 lands

That's 50-55 cards leaving just 5-10 'flex slots'. Good heavens! What an inflexible shell the Pox deck has! It would seem that the Dark Ritual and Innocent Blood x4 are starting to 'phase out' as it were but I do love me some turn 1 Liliana on the play. I also love me some Sinkhole so I have even less flex slots than that.

What would you remove to insert Collective Brutality and maybe even a Warping Wail or 2?

I can see the Innocent Bloods, but why is Dark Ritual starting to get phased out?

[mykatdied]

A lot of people despise dark ritual for the crap top deck that it is later in the game so much to the point that they are willing to sacrifice early turn explosive starts. Which is fair, but I'm an advocate for the dark ritual lists. Turn 1 liliana is still very good.

[korstructure]

This Pox deck took 2nd at a 232-person Legacy side event during GP Kyoto.

It's Black with a small White splash for Lingering Souls and Vindicate. They call it "BW Token" but don't be misled - tokens is a subtheme. This is BW Pox.

I don't know much about the archetype - would love your guys' takes on the decklist.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD15370S/

[OmniStrata]

This Pox deck took 2nd at a 232-person Legacy side event during GP Kyoto.

It's Black with a small White splash for Lingering Souls and Vindicate. They call it "BW Token" but don't be misled - tokens is a subtheme. This is BW Pox.

I don't know much about the archetype - would love your guys' takes on the decklist.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD15370S/

Dark Ritual in a dual colored deck? If I had this exact same deck, my luck would 'determine' that I'm unable to cast anything even so lolz. A working version of Vaka Pox with 3 Vindicates and tombstalker for the kill. The Armageddon and Sorin in the board are interesting choices. No Flagstones of Trokair is a surprise. Flying 1/1 tokens would definitely be a house with the proper setup.

[Quitrex]

That's a beautiful list... Not entirely sold on needing the 25th land with dark rituals and no factories, but the blossoms in the board are inspired. Personally I'd want room for a nether void or two in the 75, but I would need a couple runs with that version first, and it looks exciting enough to be worth doing that with. Specifically, my initial reaction is -1 swamp, -1 tormod's crypt(sb) for a nether void main and a nihil spellbomb, second nether void, or possibly even planar void in the board, but that's just a gut feeling.

[mykatdied]

This Pox deck took 2nd at a 232-person Legacy side event during GP Kyoto.

It's Black with a small White splash for Lingering Souls and Vindicate. They call it "BW Token" but don't be misled - tokens is a subtheme. This is BW Pox.

I don't know much about the archetype - would love your guys' takes on the decklist.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD15370S/

It is very similar to my list. I use slightly less fetchlands, with flagstones and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Rather than Dark Ritual I use Mox diamond for the slight mana ramp as well as mana fixing.

Differences between lists (-=my deck +=his deck).
-1 Tombstalker
-2 Nether Spirit
+3 Bloodghast
-3 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Innocent Blood
-4 Inquistion of Kozilek
+4 Thoughtseize
-3 Sinkhole
-1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Vindicate
+4 Lingering Souls

Overall I really like his take on it. I am very happy with my list, but ghast is likely an upgrade to Spirit, I am not sure Blood is much better than swords. I do like that he forgoes the Night of Souls', Crucible and sinkhole for the selections that he has. I still believe that running tombstalker makes swords the better option over Innocent blood, however with the design his list really only "splashes" white, whereas my list has a slightly more even split. Especially factoring in sideboard where I have an Enlightened Tutor package. This list is very similar to my token build as well, where I do run souls and bitterblossom. I also have Jitte in that build since it is insane with the flying tokens.

[Hardcore]

A few fun things happened at yesterday's tourney.
My first duel win vs a Goblin player saw me play dark ritual + buried alive for Bloodghasts, on turn one. His hand was moxes and trinisphere+chalice. Not much he could do then!
Second he won with goblin chieftain as Goblin decks should. (he was actually on a resource denial plan, with Goblin settlers!)
Last duel I found my engineered plague and finished him off with phyrexian crusader(!) .

Neither of Buried Alive or Crusader are much good. I play them to try out new win conditions. Next I will try triskaidekaphobia.

[Epeirogeny]

It is very similar to my list. I use slightly less fetchlands, with flagstones and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Rather than Dark Ritual I use Mox diamond for the slight mana ramp as well as mana fixing.

Differences between lists (-=my deck +=his deck).
-1 Tombstalker
-2 Nether Spirit
+3 Bloodghast
-3 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Innocent Blood
-4 Inquistion of Kozilek
+4 Thoughtseize
-3 Sinkhole
-1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Vindicate
+4 Lingering Souls

Overall I really like his take on it. I am very happy with my list, but ghast is likely an upgrade to Spirit, I am not sure Blood is much better than swords. I do like that he forgoes the Night of Souls', Crucible and sinkhole for the selections that he has. I still believe that running tombstalker makes swords the better option over Innocent blood, however with the design his list really only "splashes" white, whereas my list has a slightly more even split. Especially factoring in sideboard where I have an Enlightened Tutor package. This list is very similar to my token build as well, where I do run souls and bitterblossom. I also have Jitte in that build since it is insane with the flying tokens.

What is your list by the way? I have noticed that you have been on this thread for awhile playing pox. You play black/white pox?