You wanna hit ichorids and either narcomoebas or bridge. Hit ichorids and either of those two (I prefer bridge if you're on cursed scroll and Narc if you have crucible to facilitate waste landing your own factory to clear their bridges.) and then you just watch them panic when they realize they're gonna deck and you can kill them well before they get to actually cast anything.
Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
—Ratadrabik of Urborg
I agree with the above, yet the only debatable time to surgical extract or extirpate the dredger is if it is the only one in their yard. Just the other day I was able to get the win against dredge games 2 & 3 by hitting their only dredger in the yard. Even still, this may have not been the right move, and could just be confirmation bias. Perhaps, the fact he bricked on a careful study is the only reason why I was able to pull through.
The other thing is that Narcomoeba and Ichorid are only two different cards, so you only need to hit two copies of Surgical Extraction/Extirpate/Similar card, and Prized Amalgam gets shut off when those aforementioned two are no longer able to get into the field. Whereas they have three different types of dredgers Thug, Troll, and Stinkweed which would require us to have 3 removal spells in one game. Thus, this is another reason to go for Ichorid and Narcomoeba.
In a way, Narcomoeba and Ichorid is their most important resource because even if they dredge their whole library, without those two creatures coming into play they have no other resources.
Also, even without Crucible, sometimes it is best to wasteland your own Mishra's Factory anyways just to shutoff their bridge. I would rather sacrifice 1-2 Factories in order to shutoff a bunch of token generation that we can simply not deal with.
Legacy
&
Vintage
Without those two creatures we force them to try to get to hard casting golgari thugs to sacrifice, which we can usually manage with wasteland/smallpox/sinkhole and getting rid of their bridges as mentioned above. It's also worth noting that trading spirit and eating zombies with scroll/factory is perfectly viable if they do get a few bridge triggers off before you get everything under control.
Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
—Ratadrabik of Urborg
Extracting dredgers early can be brutal vs Manaless Dredge - they often have no way to get more cards in the yard. Vs. LED Dredge I would aim for combo pieces.
My 2 bits on the Collective Brutality discussion - I play Loam Pox with Maindeck Chalice of the Void...Collective brutality can help make up for the loss of both Thoughtsieze and Innocent Blood. I haven't fiddled them into my list yet since I'm tres lazy, but definitely a consideration.
I played pox for a few years, had decent success at larger events, top 32 an scg open, finals at 60 person event, top 4 at another 60 person event, 9th scg invitational qualifier, lots of good local finishes
I put it down to try some other lists but I have decided that it is time to pick it up again
I am asking the community for some assistance with sideboard options. My main concerns are Storm and Shardless. I feel pretty confidant against the majority of other matches but these are two that have continuously been tedious for me to overcome. Storm either goes off too fast or eventually finds what it needs. Shardless ultimately grinds me out. In my previous experience with Shardless, mana denial was my most successful avenue, but Storm has always been horrible.
My build is mono-black, no Dark Rituals, 4 Racks (I haven't faced Shardless but I expect this to help with my lack of pressure and as a removal for planeswalkers), 2 Night of Souls' Betrayal and pretty standard 4 ofs for the rest.
I was sort of toying with the idea of swapping Smallpox for Dark Confidant vs decks like Storm and I also like Lost Legacy as a hedge vs various combo.
Feel free to send some ideas, or ignore this altogether.
I have recently liquidated my paper collection but try to play online when I can, anyone looking to test feel free to contact me (I have various vintage and legacy decks)
sppabin
Originally Posted by sppabin
Hi,
For Storm i use discard cards in main deck, and Extirpate in side board.
I would also like to point out that smallpox is very valuable vs storm as it hits the two things they actually need to beat you: mana and card density. I recommend adding a couple of trinisphere or (if you can) nether voids to your board, potentially going as far as to also board some rituals, if you want to beat storm, as they have immense difficulty with both those cards, especially if you drop them on turns 1-3. I also would like to point out that chalice of the void on anything from 0-2 is relevant in the storm matchup, my preference being 0 if they don't have artifact mana down and 1 if they do, and that surgicaling infernal tutor or dark ritual usually makes their head explode. You can also try to surgical their tendrils if you get lucky enough to land one in the yard, then just live long enough to get a night of soul's betrayal down and watch them cry.
Shardless is a very close and intricate game in my experience, that basically boils down to winning the planeswalker fight (your veils vs their veils/sculptors) and not letting them pull too far ahead on cards. This is basically the matchup that I like chains for, and you were correct that attacking their mana is a very relevant stratagem. I always have three pithing needle in my board, and here they name sculptor and DRS (who is really inconvenient.) I don't much care for NoSB in this match since it doesn't kill anything, but crucible and cursed scroll have been very impressive , one for bringing back factories to pressure planeswalkers/protect your walkers from their dudes as well as wasteland lock them, one to pressure their walkers and keep the board clear of everything except goyf. I also don't hate bringing in surgical/extirpate here, as getting all their deathrites exiled means they are more susceptible to your mana denial, hitting ancestral/shardless/brainstorm greatly hinders their ability to pull ahead on cards, and if you can hit a walker you have just made the game very easy on yourself. Once again, smallpox is one of your most valuable cards as it hits their hand, limiting their ability to fight back at the rest of your plan, their board, which you've ideally been keeping down to one or so creatures anyways, and their mana, which lets them claw back out of the hole you're digging them. Also worth noting, if you go the blossom plan in your board, I like those in this matchup too, since they only have four decays and you have so damn many targets that threaten to run away with the game if they don't.
Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
—Ratadrabik of Urborg
Hi, you all,
I'd like to share with you my lastest Pox deck. It's focused in mid-range control (since tempo-pox it isn't competitive yet).
I've in mind to maximize "card advantage" and "disrruption (specially "land destruction")".
It's a Bw pox based in a pox that people are playing in japan. It is similar, but in testings Bloodghast haven't been good to me:
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD15370S/
Most polemic choice in my deck is:
(i) No bloodghast, replaced by Mishra´s Factory, like in classical pox.
(ii) Cursed Scroll. I'm not sure about this, but... so far so good.
// Lands
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
2 [KTK] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Scrubland
4 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [MM] Swamp
1 [CHK] Plains
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [M12] Smallpox
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [MOR] Bitterblossom
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [C13] Toxic Deluge
Other cards i've rejected, but considered:
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [OD] Cabal Pit
SB: 1 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [5E] Armageddon
I hope you enjoy it!
I'm reasinably certain that you need some sort of recursive life gain, and I don't think you need the full 8 gy hate effects (both in the sb). Te life gain I wouldn't be as adamant about if you didn't have 3 blossom/2 deluge in your board, but since you're on both I think it would be beneficial.
You mention cursed scrolls without saying whether you're adding or subtracting can and I think I want at least one instead of the fourth innocent blood, but that one is just me.
Personally, since you're on the basic plains, I want the fourth marsh flats in there somewhere. Yes, it opens you up to getting surgicaled a little bit more, but if you lose a game to that you were not terribly likely to win that game anyways, as most decks that bring in surgicals actually wanna peel you off wasteland or smallpox or hymn, so I wouldn't worry about getting your fetches hit. You're more suceptable to getting your urborg a pulled anyways, which is really inconvenient to say the least.
Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
—Ratadrabik of Urborg
So personally I dislike 4 vindicate. The mana cost and the color requirements can be tough at times. I run mox diamond over ritual and still have issues producing white on occasion.
I don't think you really need life gain as suggested by Quin because bitterblossom murders much faster than it suicides and toxic deluge I presume is for different match ups. I do like having access to Umezawa's Jitte and it might be better than deluge since it overlaps in many of the match ups that deluge is good for. That's personal preference though. I don't think you need it, but I really like a pair of jitte with blossom and souls.
Windswept Heath is just flat out bad and incorrect. The full set of flats and additional basics would be much better. Heath only fetches 3 lands and this isn't like delver where you get extra value from shuffling after a brainstorm and only need a few lands to get the job done. We generally need at least 5 lands at least to operate at full density once we have fired off wastelands and smallpox, not including if an opponent is firing wasteland back. You could likely trim a fetchland for a cursed scroll.
I have to admit, 4 Vindicate seems a bit excessive. It is a great top deck and early ones can always be pitched to Smallpox and Liliana, but wouldn't it be better to have lower cmc cards that can impact the early turns? Isn't that the name of the game, survive until your one-for-one's three-for-three's and two-for-one's put you in a top-deck war?
I have never played white in Pox, but I really like the idea of of 1 Flagstones of Trokair in place of the 1 of Plains and adding another Scrubland.
Windswept Heath makes no sense, at all. Maybe testing proves you need all those fetch lands, but even when I played green in Pox I didn't have that many fetches, I would max out at 5.
I have never had luck with the Bitterblossom sideboard plan.
I also prefer more permanent removal over Toxic Deluge. It is too temporary a solution in my experience. Wiping the board when you fall behind is not what this deck wants to be doing. This deck wants to trade resources turn after turn then remove win conditions.
Pox wins by not losing, but I guess you have Tombstalker and Lingering Souls and possibly that means you take a more aggressive approach. Although I did have some success with Tombstalker sideboard plan, beat dredge and burn in an open.
At first glance I didn't really like the list, but now that I am typing this and referencing it I change my mind.
There are several things I would change due to how I like to play and build, but I have to admit that when I get the time investigate B/W Pox this will be a starting point.
I appreciate the response.
I have adjusted my maindeck a bit to give me a little more game vs these problem matchups which makes less board space devoted to them.
I decided to let the Dark Confidant plan go for now and have replaced them with 3 Dark Rituals.
I put 1 Nether Void, 1 Sphere of Resistance, 1 Chains of Meph in the maindeck. (I enjoy my fun-of's, so long as they have a lot of overlap, such as 4 different grave hate cards in the board as opposed to 4 Leyline). It seems that the matches these are weakest against are matches I feel pretty good about g1 anyways. This also gives me some strong cards g1 vs my more problematic matches
I agree with NoSB being weak to Shardless, I am putting 1 The Abyss and 1 Ensnaring Bridge in board which should also help vs Eldrazi.
I don't like Chalice of the Void because while it does have uses it also makes Smallpox and Hymn to Tourach less effective. Another issue is if I put it on 1 I am shutting myself out of Surgical Extraction, Dark Ritual (for quick Nether Void/Liliana), etc...
I am also trying out Uba Mask as a useful card vs Storm and Shardless. I am entirely unsure of what it will look like but I will be testing then playing in a League this week to get a better feel for it.
Greatly appreciate the Dark Ritual in the board idea, in my head I wanted to have Confidant to board in for Smallpox against decks that Smallpox was weak (dredge, reanimator, lands, etc....), but the Dark Ritual gives me the speed to get down more permanent hate which is a better spot for me to be in as opposed to drawing a few more cards.
What does everyone think of my deck:
Creature
1x Nether Spirit
Non-Creature Spell
4x Dark Ritual
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Innocent Blood
3x Cursed Scroll
4x Smallpox
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Pox
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Nether Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
Land
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
12x Swamp
Sideboard
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Engineered Plague
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Spinning Darkness
1x The Abyss
2x Toxic Deluge
Still haven't mastered this yet though so I'm open to thoughts and opinions.
If you're going to run Ensnaring Bridge main deck, cause you're an evil tyrant ^_^ in a creature meta, I'd suggest removing Mishra's Factories and Nether Spirits for more Bridges and The Rack effects. Once a long time ago, it was mentioned Sinkhole and The Rack don't work together. But that was before the advent of the Liliana. She's also the reason why Cursed Scroll, which was once considered unplayable (see ancient thread), is now maindeck status. I love this list simply because you've kept BIG POX in it. It looks almost identical to one of my older lists, save that one super sexy Tabernacle which I am unable to procure due to budgetary constraints...
I'd recommend replacing Toxic Deluge with either more Bridges, or if you bridge out the maindeck, stuff it full of Necroplasm instead as a form of recurring creature killing. Every creature 3 CMC and below will fall off your map in time.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
I like your list. My local meta is a little weird. So I do not run Dark Rituals in the main anymore. I added Bitterblossom to the mainboard at a big event because I expected to see a lot of Miracles, and the slot used to be a Thoughtseize. I still have not played enough matches to know how I feel about the change. However, I went back to Sneak and Show for awhile, and knew I liked playing Pox more. So I also took a few weeks off from Pox and just got back into it this past Thursday.
Here is my latest list.
(Mana Cost 1)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Innocent Blood
(Mana Cost 2)
4 Small Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
(Mana Cost 3)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
(Mana Cost 4)
1 The Abyss
1 Nether Void
(Win Conditions Non-Land)
1 Nether Spirit
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Bitterblossom (Used to be Thoughtseize, one less win condition)
(Lands)
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Rishadan Port
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
11 Swamp
Legacy
&
Vintage
I went undefeated in a four round tournament today. Definitely love the Bitterblossom in the mainboard. It might just be confirmation bias. But it helped the two times I landed it, once against Infect and another against Miracles. It was nice having it game 1 mainboard against Miracles. Despite him having the Sensei/Countertop lock on, it was too late as Bitterblossom came before it was on board. The faeries piled up before he could do anything. Against Infect, losing the life was negligible and I was able to get through by blocking his infect creatures over and over and being able to take care of threats one at a time despite him being able to put out multiple creatures/Inkmoth Nexus at a time. The Infect player pilot is very skilled. The Miracles pilot was not so much. If this helps with anything.
The final matchup was actually against Reanimator. Game 1 was a blowout, he landed Iona. Games 2 & 3 were super grinds, yet I was able to come out on top by simply using almost all of my graveyard hate and other sideboard pieces to keep him in check. I took out 4 Inquisiton, 4 Hymn, 2 Sinkholes, 1 Tabernacle, and 2 other pieces to bring in everything except Engineered Plague and Dread of Night. Landing Nether Void was super crucial in game 2. With all the time bought I was able to get in with Mishra's Factory. Before Nether Void was on board I was able to disrupt his game plan by getting rid of his targets by Surgical Extracting, Tormod Crypting, and Innocent Blooding. Not sure if I could have gotten there without having that card in my deck. Game 3 I was able to get rid of all the opponent's Exhumes and Reanimates.
Hopefully this helps some other players. Pox is definitely starting to click with me. I hope this thread helps other players like it did for me. I am still a fan of playing without the dark rituals.
PS: I wish I had Empty the Pits today in my sideboard. I didn't like the card before because I was playing it mainboard. But I may consider throwing it in as a sideboard card against Miracles. My local meta does not play a lot of Miracles, but the games go so long and the lands and graveyards get so big it can be a huge swing. The only problem is that Miracles still has Terminus as an answer for Empty the Pits which makes me want to keep my board the way it is.
Legacy
&
Vintage
Thank you for your report and congratulations to the win!
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
Love the report, would be sweet to see what your sb looked like.
Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
—Ratadrabik of Urborg
Not a bad decklist. How does your lands matchup usually go? It's usually one of the hardest matchups. I think Pox has the easiest time against Infect though.
Easiest match up is probably Imperial Painter.
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
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