[Primer/Deck] Pox

[HeroBean]

Yeah, it seems like Fatal Push is almost always strictly better than Innocent Blood, especially in two-color lists with fetches. Maybe run Fatal Push main and Innocent Blood in the sideboard for Sneak and Show and Reanimator?

[Manroe]

Hi everyone,

I haven't posted in awhile but Fatal Push made me look back into one of my favorite decks - - Pox. However, I wanted to discuss another AER card that in my opinion also has great potential in this archetype. I really like the ideas I've seen with some of your more recent brews, especially the blue ones and I think Planeswalkers could be a good way to go. What about for a fast closer we played something like heart of Kiran along side of cursed scroll and Jace/Lili? It is exactly what we want a big beater that has vigilance and dodges all of our own pox effects. What do you all think?

Cheers

[sppabin]

Yeah, it seems like Fatal Push is almost always strictly better than Innocent Blood, especially in two-color lists with fetches. Maybe run Fatal Push main and Innocent Blood in the sideboard for Sneak and Show and Reanimator?

If your plan to beat Sneak & Show and Reanimator is Innocent Blood you are going to lose a lot of games.

[sppabin]

Hi everyone,

I haven't posted in awhile but Fatal Push made me look back into one of my favorite decks - - Pox. However, I wanted to discuss another AER card that in my opinion also has great potential in this archetype. I really like the ideas I've seen with some of your more recent brews, especially the blue ones and I think Planeswalkers could be a good way to go. What about for a fast closer we played something like heart of Kiran along side of cursed scroll and Jace/Lili? It is exactly what we want a big beater that has vigilance and dodges all of our own pox effects. What do you all think?

Cheers

Heart of Kiran is only good when you have a planeswalker with high loyalty that is not being threatened.
If you have a planeswalker with high loyalty that is not threatened you are winning. Seems like a bad draw or a win more.
Sure, there are corner cases of magical Christmas land in which this is going to be a good draw. But I would rather play cards that are good a higher percentage of the time than ones that are only relevant under very specific circumstances, especially with a format so diverse.

[HeroBean]

Innocent Blood has been good in the Sneak and Show match up. Being able to kill a fatty off of a Show and Tell seems great, don't you think? Or would you rather not side them in? They have also been great in the reanimator matchup. Why would I not want them, at least against reanimator?

[l33twash0r]

Innocent Blood has been good in the Sneak and Show match up. Being able to kill a fatty off of a Show and Tell seems great, don't you think? Or would you rather not side them in? They have also been great in the reanimator matchup. Why would I not want them, at least against reanimator?

Doesn't reanimator try find Iona and end game with that?

[HeroBean]

Yeah, but if they find Iona and reanimate her turn 1 anyway, all of our black cards becomes useless. Might as well have something that kills their other creatures.

[Chatto]

Innocent Blood has been good in the Sneak and Show match up. Being able to kill a fatty off of a Show and Tell seems great, don't you think? Or would you rather not side them in? They have also been great in the reanimator matchup. Why would I not want them, at least against reanimator?

IB can be too slow, especially against SnS. They will probably go SnT > SA > one or both fatties. There are too many sac-effects to consider, and finishing you off as fast as possible is the way to go. You're probably better off with Diabolic Edict. Still, you're in a rough spot, and will likely loose.

EDIT: regarding Reanimator; I think Iona will be the way to go, I agree.

[mykatdied]

Innocent blood also kills a True-Name Nemesis which is something to think of. Although having some targeted removal is nice.

[non-inflammable]

Fatal push' revolt cost is also triggered by jace, vryn's prodigy flipping...

[griselbranding]

Hey everyone,

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, posting for the first time. Pox is my favorite Legacy deck and I've had some version of it built for the past several years. I am just coming back to the game after a very long (5 years) absence, but am planning to play regularly now with Pox as my go-to deck.

Some thoughts on the current conversation:

I've had Innocent Blood in my list for a while, and always found it to be a little underwhelming since we already have multiple other sorcery-speed sacrifice effects.

For example, I've lost several games recently with an Innocent Blood in hand and Liliana on the board, but my opponents were able to work around the sorcery speed removal. IB and Liliana's sac effect often feels redundant in a bad way.

During one particularly unfortunate match, I played against a weird OmniTell + Aetherworks Marvel brew.

I had first turn Inquisition and saw Marvel and Emrakul, but couldn't take either one. He has some acceleration to get the Marvel out, and between his own sac/fetch lands and a Smallpox, the Marvel comes online quickly. End of my turn he Brainstorms, puts Emrakul on top, activates Marvel, uses it to cast Emrakul. Since Marvel says "Cast" he gets to take the extra turn, meaning two attacks with Emrakul in a row. I die with Innocent Blood in hand and Liliana on the board. It could be that the real reason I lost that game may have been that Inquisition couldn't take key cards and should have been Thoughtseize instead, but still, my removal couldn't save me.

I had another situation like that where someone made a Marit Lage during my endstep and then I died also holding Innocent Blood with Liliana in play.

I know that Fatal Push wouldn't have helped in either of those situations, but it did make me frustrated enough with IB to start looking for replacements.
At first I was thinking Diablolic Edict, but Fatal Push has enough applications that I think it's worth testing.

[ghostfire86]

Hey everyone,

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, posting for the first time. Pox is my favorite Legacy deck and I've had some version of it built for the past several years. I am just coming back to the game after a very long (5 years) absence, but am planning to play regularly now with Pox as my go-to deck.

Some thoughts on the current conversation:

I've had Innocent Blood in my list for a while, and always found it to be a little underwhelming since we already have multiple other sorcery-speed sacrifice effects.

For example, I've lost several games recently with an Innocent Blood in hand and Liliana on the board, but my opponents were able to work around the sorcery speed removal. IB and Liliana's sac effect often feels redundant in a bad way.

During one particularly unfortunate match, I played against a weird OmniTell + Aetherworks Marvel brew.

I had first turn Inquisition and saw Marvel and Emrakul, but couldn't take either one. He has some acceleration to get the Marvel out, and between his own sac/fetch lands and a Smallpox, the Marvel comes online quickly. End of my turn he Brainstorms, puts Emrakul on top, activates Marvel, uses it to cast Emrakul. Since Marvel says "Cast" he gets to take the extra turn, meaning two attacks with Emrakul in a row. I die with Innocent Blood in hand and Liliana on the board. It could be that the real reason I lost that game may have been that Inquisition couldn't take key cards and should have been Thoughtseize instead, but still, my removal couldn't save me.

I had another situation like that where someone made a Marit Lage during my endstep and then I died also holding Innocent Blood with Liliana in play.

I know that Fatal Push wouldn't have helped in either of those situations, but it did make me frustrated enough with IB to start looking for replacements.
At first I was thinking Diablolic Edict, but Fatal Push has enough applications that I think it's worth testing.

I agree with you on this. It's worth testing and my be better. I've found that many times the opponent will caste a chump to sac in the event I try such a route. Direct targeting would be nice and most of outlet targets are two cost. Issue comes into play when you meet show and tell/sneak, or reanimator

[Hardcore]

Different tools against different decks. The question is what is best to have in main deck. The variance of legacy deck types is such that it is hard to figure this out. I go to Carsten Kotter for advice here. He noted the format is fast with plenty of cheap spells. Decks like Delver will always have a presence. Against deathrite shaman IB is great, or SFM, NEMESIS etc.
It also helps against fatties, but flounder against tokens.
I suppose the later threat is less common.

[sppabin]

Innocent Blood has been good in the Sneak and Show match up. Being able to kill a fatty off of a Show and Tell seems great, don't you think? Or would you rather not side them in? They have also been great in the reanimator matchup. Why would I not want them, at least against reanimator?

Innocent Blood is useless against Sneak Attack, it is also useless against a Show and Tell that brings in Griselbrand. You are playing a card that is ineffective against 75% of the opponents win conditions. You already have Smallpox and Liliana as sac effects, no need for even more.

Reanimator generally gets Griselbrand which means Innocent Blood is irrelevant, they just draw enough cards to combo again or get a counter. B/R Reanimator plays Sire of Insanity which makes you discard Innocent Blood.

Innocent Blood CAN be effective in these matches, but it is only under very specific circumstances. Sure if the opponent Show and Tells in an Emrakul and has no removal (which I have had happen to me) you feel great about having Innocent Blood in hand. The problem is you start relying on this corner case scenario card to get you through matches.

With that being said, sometimes you have to leave Innocent Blood in if you don't have enough sideboard cards to bring in, I currently have to leave 1 in post board. It's not the end of the world because it does give me outs to certain lines of play, just don't start thinking it's some sort of back breaker for these matchups.

[sppabin]

Hey everyone,

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, posting for the first time. Pox is my favorite Legacy deck and I've had some version of it built for the past several years. I am just coming back to the game after a very long (5 years) absence, but am planning to play regularly now with Pox as my go-to deck.

Some thoughts on the current conversation:

I've had Innocent Blood in my list for a while, and always found it to be a little underwhelming since we already have multiple other sorcery-speed sacrifice effects.

For example, I've lost several games recently with an Innocent Blood in hand and Liliana on the board, but my opponents were able to work around the sorcery speed removal. IB and Liliana's sac effect often feels redundant in a bad way.

During one particularly unfortunate match, I played against a weird OmniTell + Aetherworks Marvel brew.

I had first turn Inquisition and saw Marvel and Emrakul, but couldn't take either one. He has some acceleration to get the Marvel out, and between his own sac/fetch lands and a Smallpox, the Marvel comes online quickly. End of my turn he Brainstorms, puts Emrakul on top, activates Marvel, uses it to cast Emrakul. Since Marvel says "Cast" he gets to take the extra turn, meaning two attacks with Emrakul in a row. I die with Innocent Blood in hand and Liliana on the board. It could be that the real reason I lost that game may have been that Inquisition couldn't take key cards and should have been Thoughtseize instead, but still, my removal couldn't save me.

I had another situation like that where someone made a Marit Lage during my endstep and then I died also holding Innocent Blood with Liliana in play.

I know that Fatal Push wouldn't have helped in either of those situations, but it did make me frustrated enough with IB to start looking for replacements.
At first I was thinking Diablolic Edict, but Fatal Push has enough applications that I think it's worth testing.

You generally don't beat those types of decks game 1 because you have many dead cards. Not playing something in your maindeck because it loses to matchups you can't beat with your maindeck doesn't make sense. You just need to have enough cards to board in to get rid of all of those dead cards.

Innocent Blood is the reason you do so well against decks like Delver, Elves, Death & Taxes, Eldrazi, etc...
I'm not saying leave in or take out Innocent Blood, but don't take it out because it's bad against combo decks you aren't supposed to beat game 1.
If you change it to Disfigure you are worse vs TNN, various Delver decks and Eldrazi (among others)
If you change it to Dismember you are worse vs TNN, various Delver decks, and Burn (among others)

I was having an issue with too many dead cards to side out so I replaced one of my one mana removal with a Funeral Charm. It is not the best removal spell, but it does kill a lot of relevant creatures and it still has applications vs my bad matchups. I also am playing 1 of Dismember, Innocent Blood, and Disfigure for 1 mana removal, but I play Brainstorm which really helps me replace these dead cards vs combo or dig for them vs specific matches and flashing them back with Jace, Vryn's Prodigy feels amazing.

[streetMage]

I 5-0'd a league recently with this Loam Pox list http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14378&d=285961&f=LE.

Its too soon to tell but I like to think Fatal Push will be the "Swords to Plowshares" of this deck...especially in BG lists like mine that run fetches.

Deathrite Shaman is often the biggest one drop annoyance to play against with my list, so having a clean cheap answer to him other than Disfigure is really good.

I'm contemplating running two Fatal Push in the main.

Without "revolt" active it kills manlands, goyf, scavenging ooze, painter servant, infect creatures, endless one, merfolk and even batterskull token. Of course it deals with other legacy staples, but I mentioned those above because they can easily escape Disfigure, Spinning Darkness and Contagion range.

Also, with "revolt" you can turn two fetch, kill a Thought-Knot Seer.

[ntropy]

Fatal Push seems like a strong card for sure, but I think it needs Fetchlands to be reliable, otherwise True-Name Nemesis, Thought-Knot Seer, Eldrazi Displacer, Brimaz, Mirran Crusader, Flickerwisp, Shardless Agent, Magus of the Moon, Knight of the Reliquary, etc are all misses. Even with Revolt, I worry that I'll be staring at it in my hand with a Gurmag Angler or a Tasigur pulling me apart.

If I'm running Fetches for Bayou then I'm running Abrupt Decay, which has more strengths and the same weaknesses....

I think it's less comparable to Swords to Plowshares, and more comparable to Lightning Bolt - It removes many, even most of the creatures you will face, but there are significant misses. Innocent Blood hits everything except Drowner of Hope. (I'm certain I'm missing something else obvious....like Young Pyromancer....)

[PirateKing]

I'm thinking Fatal Push is a slam dunk.
For the monoB player like me, I have 4x Smallpox, 4x Liliana of the Veil, a single Pox and a single Toxic Deluge, so all this talk of not having sac effects seems silly to me.
Instant speed seems huge, going first gives me so much more to do, sniping their T1 creature and then pushing a Hymn or a Sinkhole. It'll make the T2 Smallpox less often a perfect 4/4, but those always seem to eat Dazes anyway.
If you have a splash, then yeah, this might compete against better cards, and if the debate was just over the text box I could see both sides. But this is an instant, and that's a huge difference.

[Quitrex]

If you're on mono b and worried about hitting revolt reliably enough to hit things like v clique or thought knot, I think you are still able to run 4-5 fetch lands. I would probably start with 2-3 fatal push and a murderous cut in the innocent blood slots. I just know that it might be good enough to finally pull me back off abrupt decay.

[ntropy]

I'm thinking Fatal Push is a slam dunk.
For the monoB player like me, I have 4x Smallpox, 4x Liliana of the Veil, a single Pox and a single Toxic Deluge, so all this talk of not having sac effects seems silly to me.
Instant speed seems huge, going first gives me so much more to do, sniping their T1 creature and then pushing a Hymn or a Sinkhole. It'll make the T2 Smallpox less often a perfect 4/4, but those always seem to eat Dazes anyway.
If you have a splash, then yeah, this might compete against better cards, and if the debate was just over the text box I could see both sides. But this is an instant, and that's a huge difference.

I will probably try it out as soon as I get a hold of a few. The turn 1 argument is compelling, it makes your turn 2 Sinkholes and Hymns even better. I'm more worried about top decking it as a dead card later. This could easily be a Meta difference, I absolutely need to be prepared for Grixis Delver, D+T, and Eldrazi at my LGS. If you're just facing Goblin Guides, DRS, Goyf, and Delver, that changes things.

I, for one, am glad that it is an uncommon. I hate shelling out for rares that may not make the cut.