Kudos to you for testing a new deck! I think you were hurt by not owning av second Nether void. You could try adding a trinisphere.
Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
Nice showing, it was obviously a good learning experience. it might be 27 lands literally, but 12 of them are more akin to spells with Pool, Factory, Wasteland, Maze.
Obliterator MURDERS anything trying to attack short of Marit Lage or Emrakul. They sacrifice permanents for every point of damage to him, so he either completely fogs opponents (like Ensnaring Bridge) or he gets in for damage uncontested. Having trample means they could block with a Deathrite Shaman, lose the shaman, another permanent, AND 3 life. I can see it coming in against decks where you need more threats also, particularly grindy mid-range matchups like Czech Pile and Jund. I prefer the recurring value of Bitterblossom, but that's just me.
My impression is that the Japanese meta he tunes for is full of fair creature-based decks, which is why he opts to cut Hymns for more removal like Innocent Blood and Maze of Ith. He's even playing Deluge maindeck, and no Thoughtseize (a concession to Burn being popular? He's on 4 Inquisition, a much better card against burn.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I've toyed with Inquisition over Thoughtseize, but Jace keeps rearing his ugly head, and I switch back. I keep 2 Deluge in main as well. I cut them for one tournament a regretted it so hard.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Obliterator seems too defensive. He means inevitability in an aggro deck, but we are not exactly playing suicide black.
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
That's actually what I'm trying out. 7 cmc cantrips sounds evil.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Dark Rituals, all 4 should go out if you're grinding. I'd board out the removal vs. fast decks. The card disadvantage isn't worth the speed. I'm facing Miracles and Reanimator a lot and that philosophy works. I'd also consider siding out a swamp or 2 if you're keeping the rits. Missing later game land drops is ok with 4 rits in deck.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
In my experience, this is how this matchup goes. Their combo just goes right over the top of our disruption. Your game 2 sounds about right. If everything goes well, we can win. I think actual lock pieces help. Ensnaring bridges lock out their critters, and Trinispheres or Nether Voids, or even Sphere of Resistance can stop them if you keep them off lands. They do run Lotus petals, Sol Lands and Spirit Guides, though, so the harder the lock, the better. Personally I'm considering replacing my Tombstalkers with Trinispheres in the board, so my plan vs. them now is -2 Toxic Deluge, -2 Ratchet Bomb -3 Innocent Blood, +2 Ensnaring Bridge +2 Collective Brutality +3 Trinisphere. I think I want the Dark rituals to power out the Trinis and Bridges, but I could trim 1 or 2 to go up on Pithing Needle as well. It still may not be enough without a fast clock.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Well;
Those Japanese lists are way more aggro than the 'standard' mono-black Pox, which is most likely meta-related. I rather playing a more 'sorcery speed control deck' way myself, though. Anyway, it is really nice to see how the decks have a 'life of their own', they change considering the local metagame, local culture and so on.
@aslidsiksoraksi;
I am glad you had fun! The 'Sneak & Show' match is quite difficult for a non-blue mono colored deck like ours. 'Pithing Needle', 'Extirpate', 'Lost Legacy' and hard locks are the answers I find more useful when sideboarding against them. 'The Abyss' is even more insane in this matchup, by the way. If it resolves, we win.
I am going to try a new version of the deck with only 3 'Hymn to Tourachs' and a few other subtle changes this week, so I will report it to you here when possible.
Best regards.
Yes I think I agree with this... I took out a couple against blade, but I think I could have just cut all four. I like them against Delver though, we need to be a bit faster there I think.Dark Rituals, all 4 should go out if you're grinding. I'd board out the removal vs. fast decks. The card disadvantage isn't worth the speed. I'm facing Miracles and Reanimator a lot and that philosophy works. I'd also consider siding out a swamp or 2 if you're keeping the rits. Missing later game land drops is ok with 4 rits in deck.
Obliterator seems good in matchups where they don't have Swords I guess, but it just feels so slow... if it weren't such an expensive card I'd try it out, it's so cool. Haha I remember playing Phyrexian Totem and someone read it and said 'oh it's a reverse obliterator' and I was just likeno dude, obliterator is a reverse negator
Glad to see it's not just me struggling with Sneak and Show :(
@ntropy I think the needles are very helpful. they shut down sneaks and turn off griselbrand if you want them to. I think we have to be proactive, can't just sit there and wait for them to draw a Sneak off the top and use it, and needle does that. Lost Legacy on show and tell, needle on sneaks, and maybe we can win if we start pressuring.
Gonna try the deck out again tonight, hopefully report back soon!
Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest
Today was win-a-box Legacy! (spoiler: I did not win a box). I took the same list as above. Maybe should have changed it since this meta is more combo-ish, but I don't play at this place that often
Round 1: Jeskai Delver
This guy is the resident badass. He talks hella smack, plays very angrily, his deck is all black-bordered (so is mine, but it’s less impressive if you don’t run duals)... you know the type. He actually made top 64 at GP Vegas, so he can back it up. Needless to say, I am excited to put the special Pox pain on him.
Game 1 I get an early inquisition seeing an explosives (I take something else) but then there’s a lot of nothing back and forth. He eventually lands a True-Name. I drop a bridge. He must have shuffled away the explosives cuz he doesn’t do much. I then drop Liliana, and a scroll a few turns later. He concedes, saying somethin like “you can have this one, I’ll take the next two”
SB: out 4 rituals, 2 totems, 1 bojuka bog; in 2 brutality, 2 needle, 2 bitterblossom, 1 ratchet bomb (kudos to omnistrata for the 'cut rituals' tech)
Game 2 he goes for an early stoneforge and has countermagic for my removal. I drop a hail mary bridge, but he drops a Jace. He uses to brainstorm, and I have a Liliana so I’m thinking maybe this works out, but he get his explosives on 3, blows up all my good stuff, and I’m dead in two turns.
Game 3 I go turn 1 inquisition seeing swords and three snapcaster. I take a snap. All i really cared about was spell pierce or force of will though, because turn 2 I play bitterblossom. Tokens start taking over the game ever so slowly. he’s a little light on lands too. He has Karakas and plays a Vendilion Clique (which, oddly enough, is legendary). My hand at this point is double smallpox. He bottoms one, and I draw another :) Pox baby. I Pox and he sacs the karakas after bouncing clique. Replays clique, this time with a Jitte. He manages to get a hit in, but I kill Clique with an innocent blood. Jitte kills two tokens, but the rest get there while my ratchet bomb sits on 3 waiting for him to drop the Jace in his hand.
After the game he goes tells his friends how bad my deck is. Well you lost buddy so...
Games 2-1, Matches 1-0
Round 2: Sneak and Show
Oh yeah my favorite matchup. Game 1 I put on decent pressure with Pit and Spawning pool, and have him in 2 more turns when boom sneak in emrakul! I am left with nothing. I drop a few lands and eventually he finds another one to finish the job.
SB: out 3 blood, 1 push, 1 scroll, 1 crucible, 1 NoSB, 2 deluge, 1 LiLH; in 2 bitterblossom, 2 tombstalker, 2 collective brutality, 2 pithing needle, 2 lost legacy
Game 2 I get an early bitterblossom and start making a couple dudes… but Emrakul sneaks into play. I am one permanent short of keeping the blossom after annihilator. Maybe I should have held on to a wasteland? To be honest, not sure it would have made a difference as Blossom is slow pressure and his deck is all cantrips, so he’s likely to find another way to kill me. GG
Games 2-3, Matches 1-1
Round 3: Sneak and Show
Game 1 I am feeling spicy as I have the ritual Lili hand we all dream of. So boom here we go, we’re riding the black lightning. But my face drops as the next turn he goes basic island, lotus petal, preordain. It’s a sad day when you play against two of them in a row. I inquisition my next turn and his hand is all griselbrands and nothing to put them in play. But hey, he’s gonna draw a Show and tell next turn... 7/7 flying lifelink ain’t nothing to Lili can’t handle. But 14 cards is pretty good. I kill griselbrand, next turn he shows omniscience and Emrakul. GG
SB as above
Game 2 I inquisition him early. His hand is Griselbrands and cantrips, I take his brainstorm. I needle Griselbrand, reasoning that Sneaking Griselbrand is lame if it’s just a one-time attacker. Not long after I land a Tombstalker and have him on a clock. Sure enough, he gets his sneak attack. I am one turn off from killing him (though tbh he could have snuck grisel as a blocker)... he sneaks both emmy and griselbrand in at once. That’s all she wrote.
There’s time in the round so he offers to play a third. I figure why not. This time I feel strong: my hand is ritual, totem, nether void, and a few lands. I go ritual totem, planning to go for turn 3 void and hopefully kill him soon after. But he plays a Grim Lavamancer. Since when does this card exist in show and tell??? Needless to say I can’t void with that thing around, since it wrecks my negator plan. So I stall a bit. In the meantime he drops a sneak attack. I Lost legacy his emrakuls. But eventually Smallpox kills the lavaguy, I drop the void, and we’re at sneak attack vs a bitterblossom, void, and a totem. Void is doing good work, though kind of strangling me too. He sneaks in Griselbrands, but my tokens block them… I have him at one life. But then the next round pairings are up. I think he could have won by showing a griselbrand into play (which he had the cards for), since I don’t have a way to kill it… but he said he was dead so maybe I’ll just trust him on that
Games 2-5, Matches 1-2
I was paired against a guy who had quit the tournament but not dropped. but I was tired anyway so it's all good.
I really like Bitterblossom. Might go to 3-4. I do not like sneak and show. I like that the Japanese lists have a little more aggression with Totems in the maindeck, that's been feeling pretty good, even if it just dies to removal most of the time. In retrospect Tabernacle should come out in SnS matchup, and I may as well bring in Ratchet Bomb. Maybe some innocent blood should stay? The deck feels good overall though. All the SnS matchups felt vaguely winnable, but they just have the ability to nuts right off the top of the deck. Not sure what else to do about it except more lock pieces as others have suggested. I've won every non-SnS match with this build so far tho, so that's something XD
In conclusion: I love pox thank you very much for reading.
Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest
I could say 'I told you so..' on Bitterblossom, so, well, I told you so! I've been keen on Bitterblossom for a while for Pox. It creates value every turn for no further investment, letting you Wasteland/Pox with impunity, but retaining pressure. It was incredible against Miracles in the Top era, and it gets even better now that most of the popular decks don't have an answer outside of counterspells. Maybe we should play a few discard spells to make sure it resolves?
I would say BB is maindeck worthy x4. I wish I had 4 copies, I would likely be playing Pox if that were the case. I'll, as always, put my plug in for Cabal Therapy if anyone decides to maindeck BB...all the value!!!
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Yah. my Bitterblossom was great last night, I'm already shopping for another one. I put the one in the main over the Nether Spirit. How do you all feel about Bitterblossom in the Burn/U/R Delver matchup? How much of a Liability is it?
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
yes that has been my fear with bitterblossom as well; i know there's a burn player around and a U/R delver player as well
maybe it's good enough in other matches to not matter in this case though, and you can always side it out. also bear in mind that if it's producing blockers then it saves you life every turn against a delver/etc, so while you're still susceptible to burn spells you're stalling effectively. I'm thinking I may cut totems (also bad against burn) and maybe something else to go to 2-3 maindeck, and i'm trying to think what I'd cut for a couple therapies...
Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest
BB is definitely a sideboard card, as is therapies. Just note the composition of the Japanese lists and the type of opposition they faced.
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
Hell yeah Pox is the coolest. For everybody posting write-ups and results- THANK YOU! It’s awesome and I feel it helps all of us.
The two Japanese lists are both awesome and spicy.
Irei Kazuo
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18761&d=317341&f=LE
1st BR Reanimator
2nd Grixis Delver
3/4 Grixis Delver
3/4 Grixis Delver (Pyromancer)
5/8 D&T
5/8 Grixis Delver (Pyromancer)
5/8 Pox (Irei Kazuo)
5/8 UR Delver
Adachi Ryosuke
http://mtgkmc.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-557.html
1st Tendrils
2nd Pox (Adachi Ryosuke)
3rd UB Reanimator
4th BUG Midrange (Hymn & Delvers)
5th D&T
6th 4c Control
7th GR Lands
8th Aluren
To sum up the lists:
MD
27 lands (1 w/Crucible) 8-9 Swamps, full sets of the normal 3, and every other land you can think of up to and including Tabernacle.
1 Tutor. Either the classic Beseech the Queen or the new hotness Mastermind’s Acquisition. (2BB Sorcery tutor or wish.)
1-2 Ensnaring Bridge (1 has 1 SB)
4 Thoughtseize / 0 IOK
4 Innocent Blood / 0 Fatal Push
2 Nether Void$
0 or 2 Phyrexian Totems
0 Sinkholes
1 Deluge
2 Hymns is interesting but confuses me a little bit. One top 8 list was 75% creature decks and the combo deck you don’t want hymns against. The other was as diverse as it gets with 3 non-pox decks running 3 copies of Hymn. Sans the Reanimator decks I like Hymn against the rest of those top 8s.
0 -1 Nether Spirit
0-1 Empty the Pits (Irei plays both. Adachi, neither)
SB
Both rock 3 Bitterblossoms and 1-2 Lost Legacy.
The rest is normal with some small exceptions.
The Kazuo list rocks a lot of singleton targets for the Acquisition. Sorcerous Spyglass, Underworld Dreams and Smokestack were the most notable.
[][][]
Most of our lists run 8 win-cons MD.
Irei’s list runs 8 main deck + 5 wishcons out the SB.
Adachi has 11 main deck + 5 in the board.
I am currently on 12 MD and 0 SB and have been loving it. I am on the fence with Empty the Pits as it is horrible in the first 1/5th of your deck. So I might be down to 11 soon. I think I might need some Bitterblossoms in my life again. I played 1 alongside Worm’s Harvest against CounterTop and it always shined, but I rarely brought it in anywhere else.
When do you usually bring it in?
[][][]
How do we feel about Mastermind’s Acquisition? I never tried Beseech the Queen but always wanted to. Having a wishboard is very tempting, but feels too cute.
[][][]
Also my Sneak & Show sideboard plan is to Extirpate either Show, Sneak or (occasionally) Grizzy, Needle Sneak or Grizzy, and Abyss/Bridge for extra protection. Extirpating/Surgicaling both Show and Sneak is game over. Everything else is a soft lock.
In
1 The Abyss
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Extirpate
2-3 Pithing Needle
Out
2 Fatal Push
1 Liliana TLH
1 Ob Nix
1 Bontu’s Last
1 IOK
1-2 something else
I love this matchup. Some random SCG event however long ago I played against it rounds 1, 2 and 3 and beat it 2-1 each time. 3 rounds later I was 3-3 but damn- those Sneak and Show victories were awesome. Mishra’s Factories were the mvps.
[I'll photograph your wedding for Reserved List cards]
BEST PEASANT CUBE EVER.
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/35136
900 Card Monstrosity. IG: naynayscube
Tnx. I'll keep that thinking on the matchup in mind.
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
Is there dedicated Loam Pox thread around?
I come here all the time but feel like this is just not the thread for it....
I've come to realize its a different deck than what you guys are trying to accomplish here... who do I have to talk to about getting another thread started if there isn't one?
Thanks
Post it in the New and Developmental Decks section. It's a recognized archetype, but one that has fallen enough out of favor that it should probably be re-booted. There is discussion in this thread for Loam Pox, most likely 10+ pages back, but it's not common enough to really discuss. Starting a new thread would be a good direction.
There is a Jund Depths thread in N/D as well that is basically Loam Pox but with Punishing Fire and an Entomb package. It's a pretty cool deck, and maybe your idea of Loam Pox is close enough to post in that thread as well. The red isn't really necessary and the deck is closer to Pox than say R/G lands.
I've done quite a bit of Loam Pox back in the day, and I always liked Crop Rotation (with and without Depths/Stage) so you can have instant access to Bog, Karakas, Wasteland, Maze of Ith, Mishra's Factory, and Cabal Pit. I also really liked 3-4 Bloodghast because of how easy it was to get them into the graveyard and back again with all of the landfall triggers (and I love Cabal Therapy...) I played 3 loams usually, 4 being a little too many. What steered me away from Bg pox was that I ended up with a 4x Hexmage list for Depths and found that Smallpox and the typical slow grind plan wasn't very good, certainly not as good as mono-black pox, and I instead went in the direction of mid-range value along with the Depths plan (Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, etc.) Loam Pox needs a lot of lands to operate, like 26-27, and if you skimp you end up not having the right colors after Smallpox and the utility lands get added. But you also run the risk of only drawing lands, and those lands not doing enough. I highly suggest an Entomb package for things like Raven's Crime, Bloodghast/Nether Spirit, Cabal Therapy, Loam, and utility lands if you already have loam in hand/grave. It really pulls the deck together.
Good luck!
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I used to Loam Pox, but the color inconsistency and budget requirements killed me. That and GY hate is too good at shutdown.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
I agree with all of this.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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