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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Pox

  1. #4701

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    ..Sorry to sabotage the conversation, but I genuinely think Arcum's Astrolabe and Snow-covered Swamps should be a serious consideration in mono-black Pox. It allows your many colorless lands to make black mana while providing card draw. Dead of Winter seems very, very good as well.
    Scrying Sheets as well..

  2. #4702
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by streetMage View Post
    Scrying Sheets as well..
    I don't think we would have enough Snow permanents to feed it. It would have 12-13 swamps,2-3 Sheets, and 4 Astrolabe, giving a maximum of 19 targets. I don't think that's enough to make it worth the small card advantage you get from it. It would make a fragile mono-colored mana-base even more fragile after including Factory and Wasteland (both non-negotiable in mono-black, in my humble opinion.) Astrolabe + 13 Swamps might not be enough for Dead of Winter, now that I think about it.
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  3. #4703

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I don't think we would have enough Snow permanents to feed it. It would have 12-13 swamps,2-3 Sheets, and 4 Astrolabe, giving a maximum of 19 targets. I don't think that's enough to make it worth the small card advantage you get from it. It would make a fragile mono-colored mana-base even more fragile after including Factory and Wasteland (both non-negotiable in mono-black, in my humble opinion.) Astrolabe + 13 Swamps might not be enough for Dead of Winter, now that I think about it.
    I think the main problem with this idea is that a prison-style deck probably doesn't want to take the tempo loss of spending a mana to cycle a card in the early turns of the game. Lines like Turn 1 Thoughtseize Turn 2 Hymn Turn 3 Liliana for example, become much less scary if you have to burn a mana to play Astrolabe. Of course you can sandbag the Labe until turn 4 if you want in this sequence, but then you are making it less likely you have that curve of interaction in the first place because the astrolabe is taking the spot of a 'real' spell in your hand.

    I do like the idea of having more reliable access to black sources for free and I would probably put astrolabe in the "worth a try" basket, but I expect it won't work out in the end

    Maybe you decide that after a certain "core" of spells (Liliana, Hymn, etc...) you are almost grasping at straws to fill out the 60. ("Do I want an inquisition as the 60th card? Or an innocent blood?")
    In this case Astrolabe would also be more appealing just as a kind of deck-thinning consistency tool (with the upside of fixing mana). In this situation it would also make sense.

    I'm not convinced it would end up making Dead of Winter worth it, I think I would always play Bridge first, but maybe it could be slightly better than Deluge in some situations. The scrying sheets idea is alright as the opportunity cost isn't that high, but it wouldn't hit very often (at best you probably have around 1/3 of your deck Snow with no library manipulation).
    You also need to be careful how many basic swamps you end up playing because there are a lot of other nonbasic B-producing lands that are appealing and don't cast this (Urborg, Urami, Castle Lockthwain, etc)
    It's also a nonbo with Chains of Mephistopheles but that's not an essential card I guess.

  4. #4704
    Darth Poxious

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Maybe you decide that after a certain "core" of spells (Liliana, Hymn, etc...) you are almost grasping at straws to fill out the 60. ("Do I want an inquisition as the 60th card? Or an innocent blood?")
    In this case Astrolabe would also be more appealing just as a kind of deck-thinning consistency tool (with the upside of fixing mana). In this situation it would also make sense.
    Core? Oftentimes my core brews are 64 cards... Pox needs so much disruption and lands I wonder can anyone's core starting list be <60? Ashiok became a core card to cover our GY weaknesses a bit as well as fetch-land shenanigans for us LD enthusiasts. The core keeps growing with ever more cards to cut to make room. Giant Pox in all its glory was ultimately removed Personally, without scry built in before its draw mechanic, I don't believe Astrolabe is good enough either.
    One Liliana to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all into the Sinkhole Wasteland!

  5. #4705

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Hello all:

    Prior to War of the Spark, I had spent a significant amount of time trying to dial in Pox and I had come up with a build which I had put together a significant winning percentage with. At large tournaments, I routinely cleaned up against decks that we should win against, broke even or came close to it against a surprisingly selection of decks you might think we'd always lose to (Turbo Depths, Storm) and auto lost versus certain decks (Post, Mono Red Stompy, etc).
    I took a break from the game just before we got a bunch of new toys (Castle Lochtwain, Liliana's Triumph, Elderspell) and before the W6 scourge was printed. Now that my other life obligations are all set, I'm getting back in post-W6 and I'm quite sure my build still has legs with the only new obstacle being Oko.

    List

    1 Cursed Scroll
    1 Nerher Spirit
    4 Liliana, of the Veil
    1/2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    =9/10

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Smallpox
    4 Sinkhole
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Innocent Blood
    1/2 Toxic Deluge
    =25/26

    1 Trinisphere

    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Wasteland
    1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Cabal Pit
    7 Swamps
    1 Blast Zone
    1 Castle Lochtwain

    Sideboard:
    4 Leyline of the void
    1 Chains of Mephistopheles
    1 The Abyss
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 Trinisphere
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Liliana the last hope
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Ensnaring Bridge

    Maybe
    Elderspell
    Lilianas Triumph
    Ashiok, Dream Render
    Leyline of Sanctity



    The efficacy in the deck comes from several core strategies:
    - this must be played like mono red stumpy in that you must sequence your cards correctly and know you and your opponents outs based on any game state
    - this deck is build to beat almost any creature based win condition. But, you have to use your life as a resource and know when to turn the corner
    - I have reduced the win conditions to an absolute minimum.
    - this deck is a resource denial deck at it's very core, it is not a true prison deck. There are better prison builds. I identify whatever resource the opponent is dry on and lean on that resource in a particular game.

    I think Blast Zone and Castle Lochtwain fit in fairly seamlessly replacing 2 Basic Swamps. Going down from 9 to 7. We will see if that reduces the mana stability too much.
    Ashiok, Dream Render could replace the sideboard Leyline of the Void, making us weaker to graveyard strategies but stronger against a range of other strategies. Also, we could run less than 4, opening up sideboard space.
    How big are walkers right now? Would running some # of Elderspell be worth it? It's very narrow and between pithing needle and ratchet bomb, we have broader answers.
    Liliana's Triump seems great, but I'm not sure I like replacing Innocent Blood because the curve matters

    Oh, fwiw, in 100 plus matches, I was winning ~55 percent of games. And 60% plus of matches. This is based off of memory, I had it tracked via spreadsheet and my computer died. I'll see if I can find it archived anywhere.

  6. #4706

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss View Post
    Hello all:

    Prior to War of the Spark, I had spent a significant amount of time trying to dial in Pox and I had come up with a build which I had put together a significant winning percentage with. At large tournaments, I routinely cleaned up against decks that we should win against, broke even or came close to it against a surprisingly selection of decks you might think we'd always lose to (Turbo Depths, Storm) and auto lost versus certain decks (Post, Mono Red Stompy, etc).
    I took a break from the game just before we got a bunch of new toys (Castle Lochtwain, Liliana's Triumph, Elderspell) and before the W6 scourge was printed. Now that my other life obligations are all set, I'm getting back in post-W6 and I'm quite sure my build still has legs with the only new obstacle being Oko.

    List

    1 Cursed Scroll
    1 Nerher Spirit
    4 Liliana, of the Veil
    1/2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    =9/10

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Smallpox
    4 Sinkhole
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Innocent Blood
    1/2 Toxic Deluge
    =25/26

    1 Trinisphere

    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Wasteland
    1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Cabal Pit
    7 Swamps
    1 Blast Zone
    1 Castle Lochtwain

    Sideboard:
    4 Leyline of the void
    1 Chains of Mephistopheles
    1 The Abyss
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 Trinisphere
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Liliana the last hope
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Ensnaring Bridge

    Maybe
    Elderspell
    Lilianas Triumph
    Ashiok, Dream Render
    Leyline of Sanctity



    The efficacy in the deck comes from several core strategies:
    - this must be played like mono red stumpy in that you must sequence your cards correctly and know you and your opponents outs based on any game state
    - this deck is build to beat almost any creature based win condition. But, you have to use your life as a resource and know when to turn the corner
    - I have reduced the win conditions to an absolute minimum.
    - this deck is a resource denial deck at it's very core, it is not a true prison deck. There are better prison builds. I identify whatever resource the opponent is dry on and lean on that resource in a particular game.

    I think Blast Zone and Castle Lochtwain fit in fairly seamlessly replacing 2 Basic Swamps. Going down from 9 to 7. We will see if that reduces the mana stability too much.
    Ashiok, Dream Render could replace the sideboard Leyline of the Void, making us weaker to graveyard strategies but stronger against a range of other strategies. Also, we could run less than 4, opening up sideboard space.
    How big are walkers right now? Would running some # of Elderspell be worth it? It's very narrow and between pithing needle and ratchet bomb, we have broader answers.
    Liliana's Triump seems great, but I'm not sure I like replacing Innocent Blood because the curve matters

    Oh, fwiw, in 100 plus matches, I was winning ~55 percent of games. And 60% plus of matches. This is based off of memory, I had it tracked via spreadsheet and my computer died. I'll see if I can find it archived anywhere.
    24 lands, 2 of which don't produce mana, 4 of which are likely to be sacrificed like a spell. Do you have consistency issues with this in a deck that often self sacrifices?
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  7. #4707
    Darth Poxious

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Does anyone think these could be reliable under a mana denial strategy with

    4 Smallpox
    4 Wastelands
    1 Pox
    1 Nether Void?

    Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
    Dreadhorde Invasion
    One Liliana to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all into the Sinkhole Wasteland!

  8. #4708

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I think Ashiok, Dream Render is criminally underrated in this archetype. Dark Ritualing into this on turn one is back breaking for fetches, which is really what you're locking down and eliminating mana with.

  9. #4709
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I'm slowing reacquiring cards to build an old style traditional Pox with Smallpox and Sinkholes.
    The Elderspell and Blast Zone and Castle Locthwain and Ashiok have all come together to really aid in plugging the gaps we normally struggled with. Resolved artifacts and enchantments are still an issue, but you can't have everything.
    I think the format is a turn and a half slower and more people are either trying to beat this by playing fast into blowouts from either Plague Engineer or Veil of Summer, or durdling behind 3/3 Elk tokens and a wall of protection.
    Basic land counts are high, and people feel safe, so I think it's a good time to demonstrate otherwise.
    I'm confidant I can consistently develop a boardstate where we're both hellbent and they're low on mana; the goal will be to end the game before they can accrue enough resources again or land a pesky threat. That has always been the problem, but at least currently, that's the only problem now that land destruction is live again.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  10. #4710

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I think Pox's stock got way higher now that W6 is gone. You couldn't realistically deny mana with Pox and hope to get ahead with that card in existence.

  11. #4711

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    I'm slowing reacquiring cards to build an old style traditional Pox with Smallpox and Sinkholes.
    The Elderspell and Blast Zone and Castle Locthwain and Ashiok have all come together to really aid in plugging the gaps we normally struggled with. Resolved artifacts and enchantments are still an issue, but you can't have everything.
    I think the format is a turn and a half slower and more people are either trying to beat this by playing fast into blowouts from either Plague Engineer or Veil of Summer, or durdling behind 3/3 Elk tokens and a wall of protection.
    Basic land counts are high, and people feel safe, so I think it's a good time to demonstrate otherwise.
    I'm confidant I can consistently develop a boardstate where we're both hellbent and they're low on mana; the goal will be to end the game before they can accrue enough resources again or land a pesky threat. That has always been the problem, but at least currently, that's the only problem now that land destruction is live again.
    I've got Foil Encroaches sitting around here. I really want to run them once in an aggressive mana destruction list, then discard them to liliana, collective brutality or smallpox later when you no longer need them. One day I will dare play with them.

  12. #4712
    Darth Poxious

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I think Ashiok, Dream Render is criminally underrated in this archetype. Dark Ritualing into this on turn one is back breaking for fetches, which is really what you're locking down and eliminating mana with.
    I use him as a main deck answer for GY shenanigans. For something faster, I have Surgical Extraction in the SB. Punishing greedy mana bases is the tastiest icing on this cake. Pox typically can't handle GY based degeneracy. Ashiok takes care of both that and fetchlands and tutoring. Let's not forget, it's their turn to be mind sculpted!!
    One Liliana to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all into the Sinkhole Wasteland!

  13. #4713

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I think Pox's stock got way higher now that W6 is gone. You couldn't realistically deny mana with Pox and hope to get ahead with that card in existence.
    True, but oko and veil are also pretty annoying
    I think as long as Oko is a relevant card it gives enchantment-based options a significant upside compared to artifacts (even moreso than previous cards with a similar influence like Kolaghans Command or Abrade)

    OmniStrata
    Does anyone think these could be reliable under a mana denial strategy with

    4 Smallpox
    4 Wastelands
    1 Pox
    1 Nether Void?

    Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
    Dreadhorde Invasion
    Invasion seems worse than bitterblossom because going big on 1 token is a nonbo with smallpox/innocent blood.
    I think Davriel is a fine card but you can't play too many 3drops and there are a lot of other ones vying for your consideration (crucible, last hope, bridge, etc)

    Something like the list ClimbGneiss posted is close to what I think is good
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; Today at 01:59 AM.

  14. #4714

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss View Post
    mono red stumpy
    I'm mindblown that I've never thought to call it this before, but I shall whenever possible from now on.

    Also, it's great that W6 is dead. I think I'm finally going to nut up and put together a Pox list!

    Awesome! Joining the ranks of the uh... what do you guys call yourselves? The Diseased?

  15. #4715
    Darth Poxious

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    I'm mindblown that I've never thought to call it this before, but I shall whenever possible from now on.

    Also, it's great that W6 is dead. I think I'm finally going to nut up and put together a Pox list!

    Awesome! Joining the ranks of the uh... what do you guys call yourselves? The Diseased?
    Survivors. Pox players have to fight under the worst case scenario: Low Lands, Low threats & Low cards in hand. We have our foes suffer alongside us.
    One Liliana to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all into the Sinkhole Wasteland!

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