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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Pox

  1. #61
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Ankh of mishra is fun and Desolation too. It would require running chrome mox and Dakmor salvage.

  2. #62
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    @ Roguebuild

    It's clear that we are missing at least one piece to play the control role properly. The Bg version (with SDT, yes) plays it better, but it's way too convoluted. Comparing to UW miracle, where they just have to sit back and wait until they can drop a Jace or assemble countertop, it's horribly complicated. You have to work twice for the same result.

    The monoblack version plays more like a tempo deck, unleashing a burst of disruption in the first turns to gain an edge. In this sense smallpox is the ultimate tempo card, setting the board one or sometimes two turns back. And up to this point the deck does its job egregiously. Arrived at the mid-game, there are three options:
    • Play the control role up to the end
    • Place a lockdown
    • Use the tempo to ride a threat to victory


    The first option is the toughest, since the deck naturally topdecks rather badly. If you go this route, you have to include a way to produce massive card advantage. The other two look more viable to me, and this is where Tombstalker is relvant. It has no sinergy with a full control game play, of course, since it's fragile and blanks some of our cards (creating some virtual card disadvantage), but it capitalizes on the tempo gain, and, for once, forces our opponent to be the reactive one and find an answer quickly, instead of slowly circumventing our gameplan. I would like something better, too, but this is what we have and what we can work with, and it can still be enough.

    @ Koplinchen

    Thanks for the link, but honestly I'm still unconvinced. I could try it out, I guess, probably there's some merit to it.
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  3. #63

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Hi there!
    I've been playing the mana denial version of pox for some time now and I found the green splash to be very strong. The grand mistake most people make with the splash in my opinion, is to think that if you splash, it has to be for many, many cards... that is not true!
    The single card that really makes the deck better is Abrupt Decay. While Life from the Loam is a good addition, it rarely is better then Crucible of Worlds, if you want this effect, mainly because you can be color screwed sometimes and it does cost you mana turn after turn (or at least every other turn)

    This is the list I had some (local) success with so far. Feel free to criticise or ask questions about it:

    Mainboard

    2 Cursed Scroll
    3 Mox Diamond
    1 Crucible of Worlds

    2 Abrupt Decay

    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Life from the Loam
    4 Sinkhole
    4 Smallpox
    3 Innocent Blood

    2 Nether Void

    4 Liliana of the Veil

    2 Swamp
    4 Bayou
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Marsh Flats
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland
    4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Rishadan Port
    2 Ghost Quarter


    Sideboard

    1 Abrupt Decay
    3 Engineered Plague
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Extirpate
    3 Pithing Needle
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Nihil Spellbomb


    I can second that Pox is not a typical "control" deck, but it is a Lockdown deck. It looks to establish a situation in which the opponent has to topdeck the right combination of cards in sequence to be able to get back into the game all the while we are destroying his board and hand. Coming back under a Nether Void/Liliana of the Veil lock is near to impossible.

  4. #64

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I have to wonder if part of the difference in our views comes from our different play styles and how it effects our general board positions. For me to do a turn 1 (on the draw) Smallpox is commonplace, blowing up my own single land. I rarely have more then 3 lands in play. It doesn't matter much how long into the game we are I tend to cap out at 3. If I have 4 lands I am either about to cast Smallpox, Wasteland something, or I have 2 Mishras in play.

    For people playing things like Trini or NVoid for a [very soft] lock style deck or if you are playing with CScroll, 3 lands really is not enough for you. Means playing something like LotL is an absolute must because you become more mana dependent then I am.

    IMO the use of Trini a NVoid doesn't help. If you wanted to play a purely abusive LD deck (which Pox is only about 6-8 cards away from being) then Trini and NVoid would be great to use, but in Pox, which incorporates as much discard as LD, I would say they are not needed. Plus other then Mishras and any discard-able creatures you pitched early the roadblocks you put in place to stall your opponent also stall you. Of course if you have 5 lands in play and only draw 1 card a turn that likely doesn't matter too much. But the Cards still take up space and adds turns to set-up.


    As I see Pox, it is a control deck for about the 1st 4 turns (+/-1). By turn 5-ish we are entering top-deck mode which means we need to already have a threat on the board that can swing because with a deck that is about 42% land (and about 10% threat) only half of what you draw is going to allow you to try and maintain board position. At this point it doesn't really matter what you call yourself, control, lock, aggro, or a pile of lands and a few other things, because you are now just fighting to keep your opponent off balance long enough for your 1 or 2 threats (likely smaller in size) to finish the game.

  5. #65
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    Re: The testing of banned cards?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueBuild View Post
    I have to wonder if part of the difference in our views comes from our different play styles and how it effects our general board positions. For me to do a turn 1 (on the draw) Smallpox is commonplace, blowing up my own single land. I rarely have more then 3 lands in play. It doesn't matter much how long into the game we are I tend to cap out at 3. If I have 4 lands I am either about to cast Smallpox, Wasteland something, or I have 2 Mishras in play.

    For people playing things like Trini or NVoid for a [very soft] lock style deck or if you are playing with CScroll, 3 lands really is not enough for you. Means playing something like LotL is an absolute must because you become more mana dependent then I am.

    IMO the use of Trini a NVoid doesn't help. If you wanted to play a purely abusive LD deck (which Pox is only about 6-8 cards away from being) then Trini and NVoid would be great to use, but in Pox, which incorporates as much discard as LD, I would say they are not needed. Plus other then Mishras and any discard-able creatures you pitched early the roadblocks you put in place to stall your opponent also stall you. Of course if you have 5 lands in play and only draw 1 card a turn that likely doesn't matter too much. But the Cards still take up space and adds turns to set-up.


    As I see Pox, it is a control deck for about the 1st 4 turns (+/-1). By turn 5-ish we are entering top-deck mode which means we need to already have a threat on the board that can swing because with a deck that is about 42% land (and about 10% threat) only half of what you draw is going to allow you to try and maintain board position. At this point it doesn't really matter what you call yourself, control, lock, aggro, or a pile of lands and a few other things, because you are now just fighting to keep your opponent off balance long enough for your 1 or 2 threats (likely smaller in size) to finish the game.
    I agree with your assessment. I am building Pox and have play tested for about a year as I've accumulated the cards. The more I tinker with it the more I want it to be Lands//Land Destruction.The problem, as stated previously by others, is the slooooow kill time. I think i should just build the most durdly deck ever with the intention of never losing but never winning.

  6. #66
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueBuild View Post
    I have to wonder if part of the difference in our views comes from our different play styles and how it effects our general board positions. For me to do a turn 1 (on the draw) Smallpox is commonplace, blowing up my own single land. I rarely have more then 3 lands in play. It doesn't matter much how long into the game we are I tend to cap out at 3. If I have 4 lands I am either about to cast Smallpox, Wasteland something, or I have 2 Mishras in play.

    For people playing things like Trini or NVoid for a [very soft] lock style deck or if you are playing with CScroll, 3 lands really is not enough for you. Means playing something like LotL is an absolute must because you become more mana dependent then I am.

    IMO the use of Trini a NVoid doesn't help. If you wanted to play a purely abusive LD deck (which Pox is only about 6-8 cards away from being) then Trini and NVoid would be great to use, but in Pox, which incorporates as much discard as LD, I would say they are not needed. Plus other then Mishras and any discard-able creatures you pitched early the roadblocks you put in place to stall your opponent also stall you. Of course if you have 5 lands in play and only draw 1 card a turn that likely doesn't matter too much. But the Cards still take up space and adds turns to set-up.


    As I see Pox, it is a control deck for about the 1st 4 turns (+/-1). By turn 5-ish we are entering top-deck mode which means we need to already have a threat on the board that can swing because with a deck that is about 42% land (and about 10% threat) only half of what you draw is going to allow you to try and maintain board position. At this point it doesn't really matter what you call yourself, control, lock, aggro, or a pile of lands and a few other things, because you are now just fighting to keep your opponent off balance long enough for your 1 or 2 threats (likely smaller in size) to finish the game.
    Would you mind posting a reference list? If I had it right you play no scroll, no lock and no stalker, what's in in their place? Thanks!
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  7. #67
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Maybe I'm speaking nonsense' but if we want to go the "tempo" route, maybe dark rituals must become moxen, and we'd need things like nihilith and tombsatalker - and possibli a combination of bloodghast and dakmor salvage. The rest being abusive cards as smallpox, hymn' seize (yeah seize instead of iok 'cause you'll want to take ANYTHING) and big ol' pox. Also, crucible of worlds. Thus we can create a momenum where for a few turns our creatures will outclass anything they can do, thus providing the win.

  8. #68
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I like the idea, it's worth the try. Not really sure how i would be building the deck, but for now I'm going to proxy the deck a little.

  9. #69
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    So, I played in a major legacy tournament this Saturday. Gothcon is one of the biggest gaming events here in Sweden, and iirc we were 78 players.

    It was hard to find the last cards for my deck; You could think Innocent Blood was mythic rare!



    4 Bloodghast

    4 Tombstalker

    4 Nihilith

    2 Nether Spirit

    4 Smallpox

    4 Inquisition of Kozilek

    4 Pox

    4 Duress

    1 Buried Alive

    4 Innocent Blood

    3 Darkblast

    20 Snow-covered Swamp

    2 Dakmor Salvage



    SIDEBOARD



    4 Surgical Extraction

    2 Powder Keg

    3 Hymn to Tourach

    3 Jinxed Idol

    3 Perish



    I went 2-3 drop, and did not get as much info on the deck as I would like too.

    My first opponent was a friend. He played some kind of BGW mystics and Abrupt decay. Should have been okay, but I got mana problems in both duels, and to add insult to injury I never drew any pox card.


    After that I met another loser like me, but he won because he played Affinity. Dark blast is a good card against myr and frogmite. What killed me was a */* fatty that gave other creatures +1/+1. Powder Keg could have been real bombs if I drew one.


    My third opponent was unlucky.

    He seemed to play the Gate which is weaker. First game he get two Liliana and two bitterblossom in play. However I dredge into bloodghasts and beat him down.

    The second duel is harder. My opponent push my health down to 1 point (i may have helped with a pox, or two:-)) I have a Tombstalker in play and he a bloodghast in the graveyard. I must start attack to win but it is a gamble to do so. I put him at four life and then decide to play Hymn to Tourach. My opponent discard his remaining hand; two swamps... He fail to top deck and scoop.

    A win is good for morale and I go to fourth round with confidence.


    BR Delver deck with goblin guides. I let goblins do too much gamage to me and lose the first duel. In the end my boys are too big for him to handle. (He even played Fireblast to kill a Nihilith!).

    So, 2-2. I would get boosters as prize if i could manage to finish with only two losses. Alas, bad luck would stop me in the next round.


    I do not know what deck my opponent played in round five, but he had Hero of Bladehold, and, IIRC, chalice of the void. I win the first duel, but next I draw 6 lands and a Pox. I mulligan to six and get same stuff. I eventually stop at four with no lands in my hand. If my opponent would go slow i could recover. Precisely the time when he should not play turn two mystic for batterskull.

    Duel three I get crappy cards, while my opponent play two mystics for two batterskulls. I canít keep up with my pox effects and spot removal and concede.


    I am not terribly sorry for not winning :) and treasure the experience and ideas I got.



    Things learned:

    Given I have no tutor effects it make sense to have four each of the most important sideboard cards. After the tourney I bought two more powder kegs. Kegs could be due for a renessaince; the tendency is to play low cost cards in legacy, and that make the Kegs quite fast.

    If i had won my first round the odds of facing combo would probably been higher. Still, four Duress and four IoK could be too much. Playing just five of them would still mean a good chance of having one in my starting hand. If I should have them in main deck to start with, however...

    Speaking to friends I realised I have overlooked the interaction of Dredge effects and Senseiís Divining Top. Previously I thought i needed fetch lands to play that card, but dredging away unwanted stuff should be equally effective. (I would also have bought Mishraís Bauble for testing purposes, but the store that held the event has a crappy inventory).
    With Top or Bauble it is even possible to play darkblast three times in one turn! Wild Nacatl beware!

    Card draw. I actually played Phyrexian Arena in my creature less Pox builds last year. The trick is to win before the minimal life loss become a concern. Here we are helped by the weird Pox effects. Playing pox when at 20 or 19 life still result in you ending up at 13, right? Thus drawing from arena can be virtually free. If at 16 you will end up at ten, as you also will when at 15. etc.

    Liliana and Arena is a nice pair too.

    Edited

  10. #70
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    @ Hardcore: some questions regarding your manabase: It looks very solid (being all black-producing lands), but you never wished for more than 22 lands? Also, no Wasteland: did you ever missed those? I can imagine dropping Sinkhole (although, for me, those are one of the reason to play Pox :-) ), but Wasteland could be very helpfull. A last question: what would your decklist look like right now, after you have implemented your thoughts?

  11. #71
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I have not had the opportunity to fine tune the mana base:(

    As for wastelands, I find them too expensive, and second, I belong to the camp that see them as spells.
    In other words, if I play wastelands I need to remove something else. But sure, Sinkhole and wastelands are effective, however you commit yourself to a certain direction in your deck design. You can do well without them I think. After all, while many decks have wastelands you all ready have twice as much landdestruction in spells alone.

    As for how it looks now:... Correction: WILL look!


    4 Tombstalker
    4 Nihilith
    4 Bloodghast
    2 Nether Spirit

    4 Smallpox
    4 Pox
    4 Innocent Blood
    4 Hymn to Tourach

    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Darkblast
    2 Spinning Darkness

    2 Senseiís Divining Top

    17 Swamp
    3 Dakmor Salvage


    SB

    4 Powder Keg
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Perish
    4 Duress


    I know a guy that have a Dakmor Salvage, so that card is quite safe bet I will play three of.
    Spinning Darkness is a maybe. (Frankly my local store is crap) Sideboard? Still, with all the dredge I may be able to run them maindeck.
    I have only two divining tops, but I figure that is ok for a testing.

    The sideboard is not finished however. I simply ran short of ideas and put in 4 duress. Any suggestions for substitutes are welcome:)

    And Akuta, born of Ash is another mythic rare. To worthless to have in store stocks apparently:P I think one or two may be all right in the deck (I am always looking for ways to increase creature count)

  12. #72
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    I have not had the opportunity to fine tune the mana base:(

    As for wastelands, I find them too expensive, and second, I belong to the camp that see them as spells.
    In other words, if I play wastelands I need to remove something else. But sure, Sinkhole and wastelands are effective, however you commit yourself to a certain direction in your deck design. You can do well without them I think. After all, while many decks have wastelands you all ready have twice as much landdestruction in spells alone.

    As for how it looks now:... Correction: WILL look!


    4 Tombstalker
    4 Nihilith
    4 Bloodghast
    2 Nether Spirit

    4 Smallpox
    4 Pox
    4 Innocent Blood
    4 Hymn to Tourach

    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Darkblast
    2 Spinning Darkness

    2 Senseiís Divining Top

    17 Swamp
    3 Dakmor Salvage


    SB

    4 Powder Keg
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Perish
    4 Duress


    I know a guy that have a Dakmor Salvage, so that card is quite safe bet I will play three of.
    Spinning Darkness is a maybe. (Frankly my local store is crap) Sideboard? Still, with all the dredge I may be able to run them maindeck.
    I have only two divining tops, but I figure that is ok for a testing.

    The sideboard is not finished however. I simply ran short of ideas and put in 4 duress. Any suggestions for substitutes are welcome:)

    And Akuta, born of Ash is another mythic rare. To worthless to have in store stocks apparently:P I think one or two may be all right in the deck (I am always looking for ways to increase creature count)
    There is a thread called "Day of Disease" that discusses a pox build that is almost identical to yours. It uses chrome mox instead of dark ritual, but runs the aggressive creatures. I've played the deck in a couple of small tournaments to average finishes. I think the strengths of the deck are a fast clock and the ability to use Sensei's top and dakmor salvage as a reliable engine. For the second tournament I replaced Nihilith with Gatekeeper of Malakir, which was at least more reliable to get into play.

  13. #73
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Slag View Post
    There is a thread called "Day of Disease" that discusses a pox build that is almost identical to yours. It uses chrome mox instead of dark ritual, but runs the aggressive creatures. I've played the deck in a couple of small tournaments to average finishes. I think the strengths of the deck are a fast clock and the ability to use Sensei's top and dakmor salvage as a reliable engine. For the second tournament I replaced Nihilith with Gatekeeper of Malakir, which was at least more reliable to get into play.
    Hardcore was posting on that thread, but I don't see how pox players will benefit from having all different variants of the deck placed in different threads since it's essentially the same. A few people here in The Source helped me se that point.

    We will benefit more from bringing pox ideas and discussions here instead of scattering through the forum.

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Sughayyer View Post
    Hardcore was posting on that thread, but I don't see how pox players will benefit from having all different variants of the deck placed in different threads since it's essentially the same. A few people here in The Source helped me se that point.

    We will benefit more from bringing pox ideas and discussions here instead of scattering through the forum.
    Correct; you'll notice I didn't indicate he should post in that thread so much as I just mentioned it. Regardless, I like the way the more aggressive pox plays, but I think nihilith is a little unwieldy. Tombstalker and bloodghast are both very easy to put into play, Nihilith requires a very specific sequence of events to unsuspend. Even something like phyrexian negator would be easy to cast with the mana one can expect to have when playing the deck.

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Nihilith is easier to put in play that you think, but I understand your point perfectly.
    Tomorrow is the testing day and I'll spent A LOT of hours testing 2 decks, and pox will be one. I'll let you know my findings.

  16. #76
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    anvil of bogardan look interesting if one play with the creatures and dredge spells like I do.

  17. #77
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    anvil of bogardan look interesting if one play with the creatures and dredge spells like I do.
    Anvil is a neat card but it makes combo much, much better which Pox has trouble with as is. I mean, not just combo but shit, control as well. Since Pox is in it for the long game I would avoid the Anvil.

  18. #78
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Tourney report

    Went 3-1 today at the local gaming den.


    4 Tombstalker
    4 Nihilith
    4 Bloodghast
    2 Nether Spirit

    4 Smallpox
    4 Pox
    4 Innocent Blood
    4 Hymn to Tourach

    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Darkblast
    1 Kaervek's spite

    2 Senseiís Divining Top

    18 Swamp
    2 Dakmor Salvage


    SIDEBOARD

    4 Powder Keg
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Perish
    3 Duress


    My first opponent played affinity. Not the best matchup pre-board. Best topdeck pf the day when I dredge back my Dakmor salvage and the two cards that is put inot the graveyard are bloodghasts!. Since my opponent was at less than 10 life I play the land for landfall and attack with ghasts.
    The third duel my opponent empty his hand on turn one. Nothing I can do to such fast start so i scoop.
    1-2

    Next comes a RUG player that got third place at the big legacy tourney at Gothcon last saturday. He remarked his deck type had a hard time vs Pox and it appears to be so. I have tons of creature removal. Darkblast killed his insects and Grim Lavamancer with ease. I replaced my rituals and hymns for Kegs and perish for even more hate.
    2-1

    A second RU player make an error first duel and give victory away. He play too safe and don't finish me off when he have the opportunity, forgetting I can play big Pox to reverse my fortune. He almost got there with Nivmagus Elemental. Thunderous Wrath was another surprise in his deck on turn two.
    My SB was just the Kegs since he didn't play green.
    2-0

    Fourth and last oppenent plays NO elves. First game he get fatty in play and would have swung for lots. However I respond and use Dark Blast to kill a Quirion Ranger, and suddenly his DRS are small enough to be blockedand killed by my tombstalker. So fatty attack alone and do 8 damage. I lose the duel. To much DRS activity.
    I put Perish and Kegs in from sideboard. Perish win me the next duel, and innocent blood and Darkblast the third.
    2-1

    Summary: Top is nice, and two seemed enough for now. Dark rituals were often replaced when sideboarding; The duels tended to drag into mid game.
    The lone Kaervek's spite was just card #60. It will be replaced with something better.
    Second note on the rituals:they do make it easier to cast tombstalker.

  19. #79

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Please, can someone say why lists don't use the 7-8 poxes?

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by EdsonDettoni View Post
    Please, can someone say why lists don't use the 7-8 poxes?
    the lists that use only smallpox are the lists where few attrictions are better than a great catastrophe.
    But for monoblack I think there has to be a number of big pox.
    ***
    Tomorrow I'll post my list and thoughts on it. It is very similar to hardcore's

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