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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Pox

  1. #81
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Liliana of the Veil basically replaced Pox because it does most of the same stuff, and can recur discard/creature sacrificing over and over depending on the situation.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  2. #82
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by EdsonDettoni View Post
    Please, can someone say why lists don't use the 7-8 poxes?
    I recall not liking drawing smallpox when I was playing Liliana pox. They ruined my own game to much.
    This point to what define a proper Pox deck: if you like, need, and love your pox cards then you have a pox deck. Otherwise you play black control, which is different.

  3. #83

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Sughayyer View Post
    the lists that use only smallpox are the lists where few attrictions are better than a great catastrophe.
    But for monoblack I think there has to be a number of big pox.
    ***
    Tomorrow I'll post my list and thoughts on it. It is very similar to hardcore's
    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    Liliana of the Veil basically replaced Pox because it does most of the same stuff, and can recur discard/creature sacrificing over and over depending on the situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    I recall not liking drawing smallpox when I was playing Liliana pox. They ruined my own game to much.
    This point to what define a proper Pox deck: if you like, need, and love your pox cards then you have a pox deck. Otherwise you play black control, which is different.
    Thanks for the answers. It seems, like @feline said, than Liliana replaced Pox, at least in control oriented versions of the deck. But the sinergy problem, wich @Hardcore is talking, still remains.

    Pox and Smallpox have all the elements of a certain kind of control: (i) disrruptive, (ii) card advantage, and (iii) tempo-denial. But no one have yet find a competitive formula.

  4. #84
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by EdsonDettoni View Post
    Thanks for the answers. It seems, like @feline said, than Liliana replaced Pox, at least in control oriented versions of the deck. But the sinergy problem, wich @Hardcore is talking, still remains.

    Pox and Smallpox have all the elements of a certain kind of control: (i) disrruptive, (ii) card advantage, and (iii) tempo-denial. But no one have yet find a competitive formula.
    tempo plays require aggro follow-ups, otherwise it's durdling - a trategy proven to be frustrating for the player since you always "almost" win.
    We are trying to get this deck working, make it competitive. Can it be a tier 1 deck? I don't know, probably not unfortunately. Can it be a good, solid deck? Yes, it can. I'll post my list in the following post 'cause my phone doesn't like long texts

  5. #85
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Well, here goes the list I used for testings and the reason for the card choices.

    creatures:
    4 bloodghast
    4 nihilith
    2 tombstalker
    I found tombstalker rather hard to cast, that's why I dropped it to 2. However I felt I was very threat-light. Need to change this.

    discard suite:
    4 thoughtseize
    4 hymn to tourach

    I don't think these need explanatins

    pox cards:
    4 innocent blood
    4 smallpox
    3 pox
    3 liliana of the veil

    I found myself almost never casting the big pox - either i simply didn't need it or the game was already lost.

    acceleration:
    4 dark ritual

    I said something about mox on an early post, but this deck needs every card. Also, rituals ca nve VERY explosive and we need that. Thi "unfairness" costs a card, but we need to have an unfair start to maximize our chances - either so we can get too much ahead or so we can do more work to leave the opponent behind. It also helps resolve key spells you need after you cast a pox/smallpox and get your lands destroyed.

    other:
    1 crucible of worlds
    1 phyrexian arena

    crucible was a bad idea. The deck doesn't want to wait long enough to force a concession via wastelock.
    phyrexian arena is interesting. However at 1 each, t's hard to say if it was just luck that it worked.

    manabase:
    4 wastelands
    3 dakmor salvage
    15 swamps

    Considerations:

    I'll take the crucible away, it is only marginally synergic withthe deck's strategy. This is not lands.deck, we don't kill by forcing a concession due to "I can't play any more spells, I'll get hit by 2 till I die". So crucible goes out.

    Maybe 22 lands is too much. I'll try cutting 1 swamp. Again, I could try -2 swamps +1 cabal pit, but I don't want crucible here, so cabal pit would be a bad swamp that can be wasted and eventually be useful if things turn out right. So that's not gonna happen.

    I also need to up the threat count, maybe +1 tombstalker.

    Fitting in 2 tops would be nice as well, instead of the phyrexian arena.

    Sideboard as follows:
    3 duress
    1 faerie macabre
    2 surgical extraction
    1 extirpate
    2 infest (any deck that relies on swarms)
    3 pithing needle
    1 darkblast
    1 dismember
    1 crucible of worlds (again, never used this).

  6. #86
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    If you want to play wasteland in a land slot, rather than spell slot, then you should play Urborg.

    Also, Darkblast rocks! Hard to say what is best: The Dredge ability (dredge 3!), which make playing tombstalkers easy, or they way it is brutal against creature decks. Last tourney i use it to kill more than i can remember. More than a dozen creatures for sure.

  7. #87
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I can add that Darkblast, and Dakmor salvage, also has good synergy with spinning darkness. A welcome help vs burn.

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    If you want to play wasteland in a land slot, rather than spell slot, then you should play Urborg.
    I ran 22 lands total for that reason, since my mana needs usually stop at 2, with few exceptions - and there's dark ritual too.

    If I should add mishras, then urborg would be an obligatory card... probably 3 of.

  9. #89

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    Tourney report

    Went 3-1 today at the local gaming den.


    4 Tombstalker
    4 Nihilith
    4 Bloodghast
    2 Nether Spirit

    4 Smallpox
    4 Pox
    4 Innocent Blood
    4 Hymn to Tourach

    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Darkblast
    1 Kaervek's spite

    2 Sensei’s Divining Top

    18 Swamp
    2 Dakmor Salvage


    SIDEBOARD

    4 Powder Keg
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Perish
    3 Duress


    My first opponent played affinity. Not the best matchup pre-board. Best topdeck pf the day when I dredge back my Dakmor salvage and the two cards that is put inot the graveyard are bloodghasts!. Since my opponent was at less than 10 life I play the land for landfall and attack with ghasts.
    The third duel my opponent empty his hand on turn one. Nothing I can do to such fast start so i scoop.
    1-2

    Next comes a RUG player that got third place at the big legacy tourney at Gothcon last saturday. He remarked his deck type had a hard time vs Pox and it appears to be so. I have tons of creature removal. Darkblast killed his insects and Grim Lavamancer with ease. I replaced my rituals and hymns for Kegs and perish for even more hate.
    2-1

    A second RU player make an error first duel and give victory away. He play too safe and don't finish me off when he have the opportunity, forgetting I can play big Pox to reverse my fortune. He almost got there with Nivmagus Elemental. Thunderous Wrath was another surprise in his deck on turn two.
    My SB was just the Kegs since he didn't play green.
    2-0

    Fourth and last oppenent plays NO elves. First game he get fatty in play and would have swung for lots. However I respond and use Dark Blast to kill a Quirion Ranger, and suddenly his DRS are small enough to be blockedand killed by my tombstalker. So fatty attack alone and do 8 damage. I lose the duel. To much DRS activity.
    I put Perish and Kegs in from sideboard. Perish win me the next duel, and innocent blood and Darkblast the third.
    2-1

    Summary: Top is nice, and two seemed enough for now. Dark rituals were often replaced when sideboarding; The duels tended to drag into mid game.
    The lone Kaervek's spite was just card #60. It will be replaced with something better.
    Second note on the rituals:they do make it easier to cast tombstalker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sughayyer View Post
    Well, here goes the list I used for testings and the reason for the card choices.

    creatures:
    4 bloodghast
    4 nihilith
    2 tombstalker
    I found tombstalker rather hard to cast, that's why I dropped it to 2. However I felt I was very threat-light. Need to change this.

    discard suite:
    4 thoughtseize
    4 hymn to tourach

    I don't think these need explanatins

    pox cards:
    4 innocent blood
    4 smallpox
    3 pox
    3 liliana of the veil

    I found myself almost never casting the big pox - either i simply didn't need it or the game was already lost.

    acceleration:
    4 dark ritual

    I said something about mox on an early post, but this deck needs every card. Also, rituals ca nve VERY explosive and we need that. Thi "unfairness" costs a card, but we need to have an unfair start to maximize our chances - either so we can get too much ahead or so we can do more work to leave the opponent behind. It also helps resolve key spells you need after you cast a pox/smallpox and get your lands destroyed.

    other:
    1 crucible of worlds
    1 phyrexian arena

    crucible was a bad idea. The deck doesn't want to wait long enough to force a concession via wastelock.
    phyrexian arena is interesting. However at 1 each, t's hard to say if it was just luck that it worked.

    manabase:
    4 wastelands
    3 dakmor salvage
    15 swamps

    Considerations:

    I'll take the crucible away, it is only marginally synergic withthe deck's strategy. This is not lands.deck, we don't kill by forcing a concession due to "I can't play any more spells, I'll get hit by 2 till I die". So crucible goes out.

    Maybe 22 lands is too much. I'll try cutting 1 swamp. Again, I could try -2 swamps +1 cabal pit, but I don't want crucible here, so cabal pit would be a bad swamp that can be wasted and eventually be useful if things turn out right. So that's not gonna happen.

    I also need to up the threat count, maybe +1 tombstalker.

    Fitting in 2 tops would be nice as well, instead of the phyrexian arena.

    Sideboard as follows:
    3 duress
    1 faerie macabre
    2 surgical extraction
    1 extirpate
    2 infest (any deck that relies on swarms)
    3 pithing needle
    1 darkblast
    1 dismember
    1 crucible of worlds (again, never used this).
    Well, I'm still worry about consistency problem. So I have three comments about your lists:

    (i) Tombstalker and Nihilith have no sinergy with the Poxes, because they will be discarded, or removed, and thats no sense.
    (ii) (Maybe this is a mistake) Discard (Hymn to Tourach) sometimes seems to be too much in addition of land destruction (poxes and sinkhole): why discard if he or she can't cast as effect of land destruction?
    (iii) What I like of your decklists, is than they are aggro-tempo oriented, and that brings clarity.

    +++

    In order to keep developing this fun deck, I was tinking in the concept of Poxes: Are control cards, because they give (i) disrruption, (ii) card advantage, and (iii) tempo-denial.

    But is a problematic card, cause it also affects you. So to take advantage of the card, one have to construct all the list in order to sinergize with Poxes. Assuming than a decklist with Poxes always will be (i) disrruptive, it is usefull to note than it is almost impossible combine the (ii) card advantage with (iii) tempo-denial with competive results. So maybe is a good approach separate Pox lists in two strategy lines:
    (a) mid-range control, focus in card advantage, and
    (b) "aggro"/Tempo Pox, focus in tempo-denia,l analogous to the Mark Le Pine's "Speed Red".


    (a) An example of the midrange control Pox:

    13 Swamp
    4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    3 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland

    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Smallpox
    4 Liliana of the Veil
    4 Innocent Blood
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek

    2 Crucible of Worlds
    3 Ratchet Bomb
    3 Cursed Scroll
    4 Dark Ritual

    1 Entomb
    1 Nether Spirit
    1 Bloodghast
    1 Tombstalker


    (b) An example of the "aggro"-tempo-denial Pox:

    13 Swamp
    4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland

    4 Sinkhole
    4 Smallpox
    4 Pox

    4 Innocent Blood
    2 Cursed Scroll
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Dark Ritual

    4 Entomb
    4 Bloodghast
    1 Nether Spirit


    So, tell me what you think. Would be better or worse than the common Pox lists?

  10. #90
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    @EdsonDettoni

    In theory all this works. In theory.
    The problem is, hand disruption will not win alone. Neither will land destruction.
    A single well-timed threat can render the deck's control strategy useless, because we lack card selection. We get around the consistency problem through redundancy, but we are open to useless draws - if you devote about 60% of your deck to the pox-like control, chances are that you'll have a lot of dead draws past the first 3-4 turns. At that point pox already controlled the table, but these lists take so long to kill that allow te opponent to recover. If you want to go the slow durdle route, go BG.It's better at that.
    If you want to go "no friends" route, go bw. It gives you even vindicate, a multi-purpose removal.

    I'lll explain why there's no problem on the lack of synergy from nihilith and TS with the pox cards:
    Look at how hard are those guys to get into play. If you suspend nihilith you'll have no worries about killing him - he's suspended and any card that you play will only help him go down faster. As for TS, when you cast him, you have already controlled the game (i mean it's delve 6, you must have cast at least 6 spells to get him down for 2 mana) . What I mean is: after either of these are on the field, you dont't NEED to keep on casting pox, smallpox, innocent blood, etc. If the occasion happens, you'll pinch bloodghast for the discard/sacrifice. That's why we pick creatures with evasion (fear/flying) - we set up the first few turns, get a dude online, and finish them off in 4/5 turns (at worse). At that point most things your opponent play will be irrelevant.

  11. #91
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by EdsonDettoni View Post
    (ii) (Maybe this is a mistake) Discard (Hymn to Tourach) sometimes seems to be too much in addition of land destruction (poxes and sinkhole): why discard if he or she can't cast as effect of land destruction?
    This point was made by Pox winning pilot Reid Duke himself.
    "Knight of the Reliquary might be a powerful topdeck, but if they don't have the mana to cast her right away, she's a sitting duck for an Inquisition of Kozilek or even a Liliana +1!"

    Pox is truly the ultimate expression of top deck killer. For opponents who think they can save themselves from me with a good topdeck, I question them doing it with 1 or no lands on the field. Liliana means their hand should never fill with cheap cmc cards anyway and they be kept unable to cast their 3+ mana spells.

    I'd never build a pox deck without land kill AND targeted discard anymore.

  12. #92
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Sughayyer View Post
    @EdsonDettoni
    (i mean it's delve 6, you must have cast at least 6 spells to get him down for 2 mana) .
    It says "cards" actually, not spells (unlike Spinning Darkness). So playing Pox works even more in our favour since our own destroyed lands also counts^^

  13. #93
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    It says "cards" actually, not spells (unlike Spinning Darkness). So playing Pox works even more in our favour since our own destroyed lands also counts^^
    I'm aware of that, it was just an example - I mean we won't cast stalker before pox anyway, and if we do, we shouldn't need to cast pox (usually)

  14. #94

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Hey guys,
    I want to share some aspects with you:

    1)I took Pox to GP Amsterdam and scrubbed out pretty early because I was buried in the card advantage of blue decks featuring Snapcaster Mage several times.
    Often it came down to me playing Liliana of the Veil and my opponent casting a Snapcaster Mage EOT in order to bring Liliana back to 2 counters (in the end killing it).
    The Mono-black-lists only run sorcery speed removal and are thus weak against creatures like Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique.

    2)Another big issue is the inability to deal with non-creature permanents like Counterbalance etc.

    3) In other cases I wasn't able to deal with 2 creatures simultaneously because my opponent sacced his little dude for Innocent Blood/ Smallpox while beating me with his big dude.

    4) Sometimes a Tempo-deck could beat me because all my removal in a removal-light hand was countered and Delver was ridden to victory.

    This all leads to the inclusion of 1 card: Abrupt Decay. It was mentioned some posts ago and is a must-include in this deck in my opinion because it solves all the aforementioned problems at once.

    Sensei's Divining Top is also very strong in a deck whose goal is to achieve Top deck mode.

    I'm in favour of a light green splash adding Abrupt Decay and Loam:

    4 Smallpox
    4 Liliana of the Veil
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    2 Life from the Loam
    3 Sinkhole
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Cursed Scroll
    2 Nether Spirit

    4 Wasteland
    4 Mishra's Factory
    7 Fetchlands
    3 Swamp
    4 Bayou
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    SB:
    2 Crop Rotation
    1 Karakas
    1 Bojuka Bog
    2 Cabal Therapy
    2 Pernicious Deed
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Spinning Darkness
    2 Extirpate
    1 Surgical Extraction

    Not sure about Loam without cycle lands!

    Comments welcome!!!

  15. #95
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    @Smea.gol.lum

    Darkblast is the answer to your problems. It is instant speed which will surprise your opponents, it can be cast in response to the triggered abilities of snapcaster and clique when they come into play, it can be cast twice in your turn, and even three times if you have card draw like top. It is a pain for elves stompy. It kills so many creatures in the format, and will continue to do so; because the mana curve in the format is so low and that is linked to the creatures toughness.
    Cheap casting cost equals low toughness.
    It is a 50 cent card were Life from the Loam and Abrupt Decay are 10$ cards.
    To name a few good things...

    I have three main deck and they are among my most valued cards. In fact it is better than sword to plowshares
    Last edited by Hardcore; 04-04-2013 at 08:06 PM.

  16. #96
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Also, against counterbalance you have lots of options, but it depend on what is the problem: Terminus or counterbalance?

  17. #97

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Darkblast is much more narrow than Abrupt Decay. It doesn't answer Goyf, Knight of the Reliquary and many more creatures while only killing 2-toughness-creatures like a flipped Delver with card disatvantage.
    It doesn't do anything against Chalice of the Void, Jitte, Counterbalance, Crucible of Worlds, Sylvan Library, Aether Vial etc.
    It can also be countered which plays a huge role, because there are many occasions in which a key creature has to come off the board like a Stoneforge Mystic with FOW backup that would vial in Batterskull otherwise.

  18. #98
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    This did hit at the beginning of the year, though a smaller tournament (53 players) it hit the top 6, landing on 5th http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=72255
    It's the closest thing I could find to todays date using the Council, the other 8 or so pox lists since have been mono black.

    Nick Panagakos - Jan 5th 2013 - Cyborg One Super Legacy 2 (Doylestown, PA)
    Creatures [1]
    1 Nether Spirit
    Instants [8]
    4 Abrupt Decay
    4 Dark Ritual
    Sorceries [17]
    1 Worm Harvest
    2 Life from the Loam
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Sinkhole
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Smallpox
    Enchantments [2]
    2 Pernicious Deed
    Planeswalkers [4]
    4 Liliana of the Veil
    Artifacts [2]
    2 Cursed Scroll
    Lands [26]
    2 Barren Moor
    3 Marsh Flats
    3 Swamp
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Bayou
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland
    Sideboard [15]
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Zuran Orb
    4 Engineered Plague
    2 Leyline of the Void
    2 Extirpate
    2 Spinning Darkness
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  19. #99
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum View Post
    Darkblast is much more narrow than Abrupt Decay. It doesn't answer Goyf, Knight of the Reliquary and many more creatures while only killing 2-toughness-creatures like a flipped Delver with card disatvantage.
    It is narrow since it only target creatures, but that is what people will use to kill you with unless they play combo.
    If it doesn't kill the Ghoyf it will the smaller guys letting you use nnocent blood and smallpox to maximum effectiveness. Also, it is NOT card disadvantage.

    It doesn't do anything against Chalice of the Void, Jitte, Counterbalance, Crucible of Worlds, Sylvan Library, Aether Vial etc.
    Well They are not really problems for us. Chalice is rarely played and your important spells cost two or more.
    Jitte is useless without creatures, same with vial.
    The rest are often lost to discard, or Lilianas ultimate.

    It can also be countered which plays a huge role, because there are many occasions in which a key creature has to come off the board like a Stoneforge Mystic with FOW backup that would vial in Batterskull otherwise.
    That is situation dependant. Also if you do your draw phase trick to kill MSF your opponent will be tempted to counter it, that is a good bet. However it is risky for him aas it may leave him open for your smallpox.

  20. #100
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I could add to all that hardcore is saying the following statement:

    If you want a control deck, do not play pox. Nor monoblack, nor bg, not even bw.
    There are control decks that work on board control. These are Truffle Shuffle, Train Wreck, BUG landstill (deedstill). All of these can abuse graveyard recursion, play slowly (either take too long to kill or attempt to put fat guys/planeswalkers into play) and probably offer what you are searching for.

    Nowadays the pox deck works VERY differently than it used to be, and it's perfectly fine, since decks and strategies evolve.

    EDIT: Just an example: waay back, the great creatures were Vampire of Sengir and Serra Angel. Those had a high cmc. Today, we see tarmogoyf. 2 mana. KTR - 3 mana. Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration - 1 mana. Take too long to kill your opponent and you are bound to see him recovering. When that happens, you're back at stage 0 of your gameplan.

    You can also try a lockdown strategy, but that's a different deck altogether - see how many cards Lands use to support it's strategy. Same for Stax.

    I hope it wasn't all too confusing.. it's late at night in here and I'm sleepy.

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