[Primer/Deck] Pox

[Hardcore]

Any ideas for building a chalice pox? (Besides running chrome mox;-))

[tescrin]

Round 9: Death and Taxes Loss
Game 3: Second big mistake, I reminded HIM of my tabernacle trigger on his upkeep right as he was about to draw a card. Would have been GG.

I get that it's competitive REL and that this is a real thing, but at the same time..: you really want to steal Round 9 when you're x-100-2 when it's basically just casual playing at that point? You weren't going to win anything had you hosed the guy and his apparent bad memory after a 9+ hour day of playing and by losing you hopefully learned how a good opponent would've beaten you. Your experience was in contrast to:

You: "LOL, I totally screwed this guy with a judge call over a rule that should've never been worded that way"
Your Friend: "What'd you win by doing that?"
You: "Nothing! LOL. I got to be a total douche to the guy! It was simply to make sure he felt terrible on his drive home that the rules are worded so badly on this card that by forgetting a trigger he shouldn't have to control he sacrifices all of his stuff."


Call me an idiot-douche-moron, but I still live in a world where the pride of winning comes from outplaying an opponent and not because of badly worded 20-year-old mechanics that wizards never fixed.

[zenitramleirdag]

speaking of upkeep costs/requirements/triggers, its good to have something to remind you of it; i, frinstance, like to put a die on top o' my library so i won't accidentally forget things like nether spirit's trigger, etc, and proceed to draw..

[OmniStrata]

speaking of upkeep costs/requirements/triggers, its good to have something to remind you of it; i, frinstance, like to put a die on top o' my library so i won't accidentally forget things like nether spirit's trigger, etc, and proceed to draw..

I find mumbling to myself, "Untap, Upkeep (check graveyard), Draw" to be my most common procedure. of course, if your deck has other upkeep triggers, you have to memorize those, but some people ask me why I do that. My reply, "it's in the rules?" It also tends to annoy people I don't like which is why I do it more often at times.

[Teluin]

text

Encroach was actually just me copy-pasting an idea from my word document and forgetting to remove them when posting on here. They're something I want to try instead of IoK, but haven't yet. The idea behind Encroach is that with all of the land destruction/discard in the deck, the opponent wouldn't have the chance to cast their spells - this would make Waste Not that much better as their hand would be all creatures/spells. I don't know that I'd want to remove the IoKs though, so I've been considering removing the 1-ofs in the deck to fit them in; Thoughtseize and Ensnaring Bridge would be fine but Sensei's Divining Top really does help and I kind of miss 2 in the deck. Also debating the Nether Void but it's so cool..

As for Tombstalker, I've never been a fan of it in Pox. Innocent Blood and Ensnaring Bridge are probably the two biggest reasons for this. I don't play The Rack either because it only pings away their life a bit at a time without doing anything else to their board/hand or my board (whereas Waste Not does). Cursed Scroll does this, but it can also be used for targeted creature removal - something this deck lacks - and to deal with planeswalkers. I'm also not sure what you mean about late game - that's when Cursed Scroll is the best as you want to have it in play when topdecking.

Nether Void is a card I just can't bring myself to remove but probably should. Without Dark Rituals it's too slow, despite the obvious cool factor.

[OmniStrata]

Nether Void is a card I just can't bring myself to remove but probably should. Without Dark Rituals it's too slow, despite the obvious cool factor.

Nether Void isn't meant to be a true prison turn 2 lock. You disrupt the snot out of your opponents resources, than 8 turns in you drop a void with both of you hellbent. Now your deck was built to work under a void. Cursed Scroll, Mishra's Factory, and Nether Spirit aren't affected by it and your opponent, who probably has no threats by now, is twiddling their thumbs as you kill them.

Nether Void isn't too slow, you're trying to cast it too fast.

[Teluin]

Nether Void isn't meant to be a true prison turn 2 lock. You disrupt the snot out of your opponents resources, than 8 turns in you drop a void with both of you hellbent. Now your deck was built to work under a void. Cursed Scroll, Mishra's Factory, and Nether Spirit aren't affected by it and your opponent, who probably has no threats by now, is twiddling their thumbs as you kill them.

Nether Void isn't too slow, you're trying to cast it too fast.

I know how to play the deck :P. If they have any sort of board presence then it's just a dead card in your hand as you wait to find an answer. Ever drawn a bunch of swamps when you just want a control piece? If you call yourself a Pox player then you definitely have. Another issue is that Nether Void can be the last card in your hand when you don't have enough mana on board due to Smallpox and Wastelands, meanwhile the opponent gains time to rebuild their board - this doesn't take much for many of the decks in Legacy. Part of the trick with this deck is that it can be inconsistent - I work towards minimizing that. Nether Void can be great, but a lot of times it's a card I just keep putting off to cast because their board presents a faster clock than mine and/or I just don't have the mana for it. Thus Dark Rituals.

[Steamflogger]

Encroach was actually just me copy-pasting an idea from my word document and forgetting to remove them when posting on here. They're something I want to try instead of IoK, but haven't yet. The idea behind Encroach is that with all of the land destruction/discard in the deck, the opponent wouldn't have the chance to cast their spells - this would make Waste Not that much better as their hand would be all creatures/spells. I don't know that I'd want to remove the IoKs though, so I've been considering removing the 1-ofs in the deck to fit them in; Thoughtseize and Ensnaring Bridge would be fine but Sensei's Divining Top really does help and I kind of miss 2 in the deck. Also debating the Nether Void but it's so cool..

As for Tombstalker, I've never been a fan of it in Pox. Innocent Blood and Ensnaring Bridge are probably the two biggest reasons for this. I don't play The Rack either because it only pings away their life a bit at a time without doing anything else to their board/hand or my board (whereas Waste Not does). Cursed Scroll does this, but it can also be used for targeted creature removal - something this deck lacks - and to deal with planeswalkers. I'm also not sure what you mean about late game - that's when Cursed Scroll is the best as you want to have it in play when topdecking.

Nether Void is a card I just can't bring myself to remove but probably should. Without Dark Rituals it's too slow, despite the obvious cool factor.

Ensnairing Bridge really is an argument against Tombstalker and since the bridge feels right to me that one is settled.

What I meant when talking about late game and The Rack was that Waste Not and Sensei’s Divining Top are supposed give us cards in mid and late game when pox normally tends to run out of gas. And I was debating whether that would make Rack viable since we should have more discard ready to clear their hands. But as you stated Cursed Scroll is more versatile than Rack.

Coming back to the combo matchup: I would have to include some broader help from sideboard. AKA fast combo hate. Would you include some classic Duress? Leyline deals with PiF, Timespiral and Reanimator. Needle shuts down Sneak Attack, Charbelcher and enough other noncombo shenanigans. Plague eliminates Empty the Warrens, other goblins and elves. Surgical can take key cards but I'm not the greatest fan in the first place. So I'd go for -2 Surgicals -1 Plague and +3 Duress. Do you have other suggestions?

Regarding Nether Void it really seems to come down to what I already said. The right moment. Which also might not even occur because you're lacking the mana.. But the card has so much flavour that you should start 1:0 into the tournament just for writing your decklist. I will have to run some heavy testing before I pull off that investment. 90€... Crazypants bonkotsu even went with his Chains

[OmniStrata]

I know how to play the deck :P. If they have any sort of board presence then it's just a dead card in your hand as you wait to find an answer. Ever drawn a bunch of swamps when you just want a control piece? If you call yourself a Pox player then you definitely have. Another issue is that Nether Void can be the last card in your hand when you don't have enough mana on board due to Smallpox and Wastelands, meanwhile the opponent gains time to rebuild their board - this doesn't take much for many of the decks in Legacy. Part of the trick with this deck is that it can be inconsistent - I work towards minimizing that. Nether Void can be great, but a lot of times it's a card I just keep putting off to cast because their board presents a faster clock than mine and/or I just don't have the mana for it. Thus Dark Rituals.

Dark Rituals depend on one's meta ultimately. For safety's sake, I always include them game one. I can always feed them to Cursed Scroll or Mishra's Factory when in topdeck mode. It'd be awesome if they made a manland that was also a shade eh? I simply side them out if my opponent isn't trying to butcher me in 3 turns or less. Dark Rituals actually make sideboarding easier, as is packing extra lands. If you find yourself having to race, I suppose packing more creature kill is the order of your day in order to make Nether Void worth it.

[Teluin]

Dark Rituals depend on one's meta ultimately. For safety's sake, I always include them game one. I can always feed them to Cursed Scroll or Mishra's Factory when in topdeck mode. It'd be awesome if they made a manland that was also a shade eh? I simply side them out if my opponent isn't trying to butcher me in 3 turns or less. Dark Rituals actually make sideboarding easier, as is packing extra lands. If you find yourself having to race, I suppose packing more creature kill is the order of your day in order to make Nether Void worth it.

Yeah, there are more creature-based decks than combo in my meta - thus wanting to SB Dark Rituals instead of MD'ing them. I've actually considered MD'ing 4 Paralyze, but decided to focus on card advantage/win conditions instead.

[OmniStrata]

Yeah, there are more creature-based decks than combo in my meta - thus wanting to SB Dark Rituals instead of MD'ing them. I've actually considered MD'ing 4 Paralyze, but decided to focus on card advantage/win conditions instead.

Whoa old school paralyze! :) You have Night of Souls' Betrayal on deck? Solid vs. creature heavy decks. I main deck one Engineered alongside NoSB myself. While we're thinking of old school, anyone consider Lethal Vapors? Ah, Volrath's Dungeon comes to mind as well.

[bonkotsu]

Sadly I am starting to wonder if this decks playstyle is for me. I do like it and like what it can do, however I may not be the correct pilot for it. With playtesting at my LGS and going to some IQs elsewhere I havent been that satisfied with my choices or decisions. I do understand playing constantly is the only way to learn the deck and your choices, but I do have my doubts in my own ability to pilot it to the fullest. I plan on trying Fish this week just to do something new and different, but I still plan on testing with Pox to see if I can get any better.

[tescrin]

I think the issue with Nether Void is that you could just.. win the game instead. Why not cast a Desecration Demon or Abyssal Persecutor?
You win in three turns now (at most) and the types of things that answer them are extremely limited.

[TheUndeadDwarf]

Ok, little background:

I'm knowledgeable about the Legacy meta/decks/etc, but rarely played a lot of it (like... maybe 30 games total?) and I decided to build a deck I'd be able to play without a ton of issue (surprise, it's pox!) and with my success of 8-rack in modern, I figured Pox would be different for sure, but it's the closest comfort deck I could think of. So, of course, silly ol' me decided "Well, there's a tournament in Oct that's Legacy. I've got all but 3 cards for Pox... I COULD go." then I signed up. Well, now I've acquired said missing cards and I'm starting to get a tad uneasy with my deck choice (list later on), and my lack of actual Legacy experience (Likely just me overthinking). Also,I'm heading to this event comepletely 'blind' to a meta, minus 1 other persons deck (Enchantress, which I feel will be either hit or miss).

Tried a few games on cockatrice, and I've got a 12-6 record going (total wins/loses per deck: 3-1 vs show and tell, 2-0 vs reanimator, 4-0 vs RUG Delver, 2-1 vs Charbelcher, 1-2 vs miracles, 0-2 vs lands). Not sure how "good" this is, considering my playtesting group being cockatrice.

So, now to the important bit, firstly my deck list:

TheUndeadDwarf's Prison Pox list
//Main Board
2 Cursed Scroll
1 The Rack
2 Nether Spirit
1 Tombstalker
1 Nether Void
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
12 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Dark Ritual
1 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox

//Sideboard

1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Null Rod
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Necroplasm
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Oppression
2 Duress
2 Extirpate
2 Massacre
1 Spinning Darkness
1 Toxic Deluge

Now, for the second bit (more for my caring):
Is here anything that should be changed about my deck/board (I should mention I enjoy the Reid Duke sideboarding XD but, I can easily tighten it up with help! Since I don't know the meta of the event, I feel this could be a decent enough sideboard-style, whereas home-meta I'll have to adapt for.)? Any matches in general I'm gonna have to look out for (Miracles, Death and Taxes, Stax, and Lands don't seem good for me, but I've only played vs 2 of those decks). I appreciate the time taken to read/skim through this, and for anyone that 'helps' in any way: Thank you a ton!

I'll be sure to post results from the event (28th oct) and hopefully I can do Pox proud :p

[lyracian]

Now, for the second bit (more for my caring):
Is here anything that should be changed about my deck/board (I should mention I enjoy the Reid Duke sideboarding XD but, I can easily tighten it up with help! Since I don't know the meta of the event, I feel this could be a decent enough sideboard-style, whereas home-meta I'll have to adapt for.)? Any matches in general I'm gonna have to look out for (Miracles, Death and Taxes, Stax, and Lands don't seem good for me, but I've only played vs 2 of those decks). I appreciate the time taken to read/skim through this, and for anyone that 'helps' in any way: Thank you a ton!

Good luck in October. If you have one I would swap the maindeck Duress for a Thoughtseize.
Personally I do not like main deck Tombstalker (I find he dies too easily) and would therefore swap either the Crucible or Night in the Sideboard and put Tom in the board.
I never got Oppression to work, let us know how you get on with it. Alternatively you could use Bottomless Pitt?
Your sideboard looks a little weak against Dredge, and possibly Reanimator, with only 2 grave hate cards.

[OmniStrata]

I think the issue with Nether Void is that you could just.. win the game instead. Why not cast a Desecration Demon or Abyssal Persecutor?
You win in three turns now (at most) and the types of things that answer them are extremely limited.

Swords to Plowshares, Diabolic Edict (we don't run armies of creatures), Force of Will/Counterspell, Terminate, Path to Exile, Plummet. If that's extremely limited, I'd hate to see what 'easy to kill' is defined by.

You're right about the 'kill your enemy' part. Tombstalker is without question, the strongest cheapest threat for that instead of the two 4 mana creatures you mentioned. MB Pox is slower and can't answer absolutely everything hence a fast clock is good. Some people want to dodge the Pox symmetry and having creatures that do not dodge around Innocent Blood is a bad thing for some of us. I used to run Tomby myself, but after getting in games vs. things like Omni-Tell, I'm glad I'm running Ensnaring Bridge, which in turn forces tomby out of my deck.

I miss that guy...

[ntropy]

Any ideas for building a chalice pox? (Besides running chrome mox;-))

Hey. I love Chalice Pox. My list is B/G with Loams. Here:

4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Mox Diamond
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
1 Syphon Soul
1 Nether Spirit
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Bayou
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Swamp
1 Forest


And the ever-changing sideboard:

4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sylvan Scrying
2 Null Rod
1 Karakas
1 Dystopia
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague


Chalice is really powerful against many decks, and with Mox Diamond you can shut them down on turn 1 while also fixing for colored mana. The synergy of pitching a land that can later be Loamed is great too. The downside is that you lose access to all of your one mana tools. I can honestly live without Thoughtsieze, Duress, Dark Ritual, Innocent Blood, and Cursed Scroll. Where it really hurts is in the sideboard, where you lose Surgical Extraction, Extirpate, Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle, Nature's Claim, Drop of Honey, and Crop Rotation. (And Misinformation!)

The other side effect is that without the +2 from Dark Ritual, you can't reliably reach 4 mana for haymakers like Night of Soul's Betrayal or Nether Void. I keep it to 3 mana.

The Spheres are a nice extra lock piece in the board, and they mean you have a decent game vs combo, as long as you are on the play or survive turn 1. Turn 1 Sphere of Resistance has definitely saved my bacon on the play vs Oops, All Spells or Storm, and it helps vs. Elves, LED Dredge, Burn, and anything where you need to focus on mana denial as your disruption. The oddball suite of creature hate in the board is a bit of a work in progress. Dystopia and Engineered Plague are nice because they stick around, but Toxic Deluge can actually take out a Shardless BUG army of Goyfs and utility dudes. The Sylvan Scryings are an experiment. With the random Miser's Tabernacle, Pit, and Bog in the main, and the Karakas in the board, they become a 2 mana version of each of these effects. I haven't tested it yet, but I have high hopes that it will give me access to the toolbox in post board games. I can take out the Sylvan Libraries for the Scryings and just find my answer. The Null Rods turn off Vials, Equipment, MUD, and Top. Seems worth it, since I don't run Cursed Scrolls.

I'm a proponent of Chalice Pox, but I'm not going to argue that it is the better of more consistent build. I like the synergies, and I like to play Stax, which it kind of feels like sometimes. My entire collection was stolen recently, so I am without a deck at all right now, and I suspect as soon as I can afford Wastelands, I will be back in the saddle playing Mono-Black Pox, and I'll likely try out a Chalice build with Chrome Moxes instead of Mox Diamonds. When that happens, I'll keep you all posted. See you all in Jersey, where I will be borrowing this list!

[Chatto]

On the subject of Chalice Pox: Beez is playing it for a long time now, if I'm not mistaken. Also at the Salvation there are some toying around with it as well

[beez]

Yeah, I have been playing it for a while and I like it pretty well. It's not a world beater, but it is very very solid and quite fearsome.



2 Sylvan Library
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Liliana of the Veil

3 Living Wish
3 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Abrupt Decay
1 The Abyss

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Side
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Tombstalker
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage



Recently I replaced a Living Wish with an Abyss. Have not played that change enough to know if it is the right move yet but though a Living Wish or two can win outright, other times it is held when I could be disrupting and dont have a clear situation for a Wish target or they get discarded. But just fetching a Tombstalker can be great. Also I wish I had a Tabernacle and the fourth one would go back in.

The Abyss and Night of Soul's Betrayal are meant to help with the long term anti creature but it is correct that Mox is great for turn one Chalice or turn two Lilly, but much less so for anything costing four, so these two do get pitched to Lilly or Smallpox or Loamed a little too much.

[beez]

Swords to Plowshares, Diabolic Edict (we don't run armies of creatures), Force of Will/Counterspell, Terminate, Path to Exile, Plummet. If that's extremely limited, I'd hate to see what 'easy to kill' is defined by.

You're right about the 'kill your enemy' part. Tombstalker is without question, the strongest cheapest threat for that instead of the two 4 mana creatures you mentioned. MB Pox is slower and can't answer absolutely everything hence a fast clock is good. Some people want to dodge the Pox symmetry and having creatures that do not dodge around Innocent Blood is a bad thing for some of us. I used to run Tomby myself, but after getting in games vs. things like Omni-Tell, I'm glad I'm running Ensnaring Bridge, which in turn forces tomby out of my deck.

I miss that guy...

Tomby is good against combo when you side out your Edicts mostly anyway and need to finish them off while they are disrupted before they do blue stuff to find answers to get back in the game. Hell, splashing green sometimes I wonder if I should toss in a Choke.

Also, #6 is the correct ability for the -2. Not even the Ultimate.