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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Stax

  1. #481

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by P210 View Post
    -1 Mox, + 1 Land
    I think the land count is a bit low to support four Moxen...

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    24/4 is quite standard, maybe you missed the dryad arbor
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  2. #482

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    24/4 is quite standard, maybe you missed the dryad arbor
    Right, missed the Dryad. Still think 4 Moxen is a lot. I used to play 3 Moxen with 26 Lands in the colorless Stax shell.

    Other question, whats the plan against Sneak & Show without Ensnaring Bridges in the 75?

  3. #483

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    DRS ban is amazing for any crucible based staxxx.

    We have a shot at becoming kinda viable imho
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  4. #484
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    I guess the deck does not really want the Elvish Spirit Guides, but as pointed out maybe a land more:

    //Lands
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Bayou
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Forest
    1 Ghost Quarter
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Savannah
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    2 Wooded Foothills

    //Spells
    4 Chalice of the Void
    1 Karn, Scion of Urza
    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Smokestack
    2 Sylvan Library
    3 Trinisphere

    //Creatures
    2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
    1 Courser of Kruphix
    1 Dryad Arbor
    1 Knight of the Reliquary
    1 Obstinate Baloth
    3 Ramunap Excavator
    1 Reclamation Sage
    4 Tireless Tracker
    1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

    //Sideboard
    SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
    SB: 2 Choke
    SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
    SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
    SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst


    What so you guys think? It seems like a love affair between Maverick, Sylvan Plug and Stax...
    Chalice on 1

  5. #485

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    I’m working on a mono brown list for a local Tournament this weekend. I’m trying to diversify threats a little - any feedback is appreciated!

    3 Mox Diamond
    4 Metalworker
    1 Staff of Domination
    1 Walking Ballista
    3 smokestack
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    3 crucible of worlds
    2 ratchet bomb
    4 ensnaring bridge
    2 Tangle Wire
    3 Trinisphere
    4 Chalice of the Void

    4 Karn, Scion of Urza

    3 Ghost Quarter
    4 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 city of Traitors
    3 Inventors’ Fair
    3 Buried Ruin
    4 Rishadan Port

  6. #486
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by SMRiggin View Post
    I’m working on a mono brown list for a local Tournament this weekend. I’m trying to diversify threats a little - any feedback is appreciated!
    3 Ghost Quarter
    4 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 city of Traitors
    3 Inventors’ Fair
    3 Buried Ruin
    4 Rishadan Port
    Why there are no Mishra's Factory(ies)?
    ---
    Carpe Diem

  7. #487

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronatog View Post
    Why there are no Mishra's Factory(ies)?
    Honestly, I’m not sure I need them. Between Karn constructs and Ballista I don’t feel like I need another win condition and I’d rather use those slots for more land denial w/ Ghost Quarter. Now that DRS is out of the picture, I feel like it’s a legitimate win Con.

    Shawn

  8. #488

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by SMRiggin View Post
    I’m working on a mono brown list for a local Tournament this weekend. I’m trying to diversify threats a little - any feedback is appreciated!

    3 Mox Diamond
    4 Metalworker
    1 Staff of Domination
    1 Walking Ballista
    3 smokestack
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    3 crucible of worlds
    2 ratchet bomb
    4 ensnaring bridge
    2 Tangle Wire
    3 Trinisphere
    4 Chalice of the Void

    4 Karn, Scion of Urza

    3 Ghost Quarter
    4 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 city of Traitors
    3 Inventors’ Fair
    3 Buried Ruin
    4 Rishadan Port

    What do you plan to see at the tournament?

    In a vacuum, I wouldn't play Ghost Quarter unless I know I'm facing a ton of RUG Delver or Eldrazi. I would definitely play the 4th City and 4th Mox Diamond as this deck is going to be very mana hungry. I also don't feel like 4x Karn is the right number. I suppose a case could be made, but I would think you want more lock pieces early and I would focus in that direction.

    Very interested in how you do!

  9. #489
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by SMRiggin View Post
    Honestly, I’m not sure I need them. Between Karn constructs and Ballista I don’t feel like I need another win condition and I’d rather use those slots for more land denial w/ Ghost Quarter. Now that DRS is out of the picture, I feel like it’s a legitimate win Con.

    Shawn
    Since your said "I’m trying to diversify threats a little", perhaps one Mishra's Factory is ok. You have Crucible of Worlds that can return your Factory into play again and again, if you need.
    ---
    Carpe Diem

  10. #490
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Factory is really handy, since you can make it infinitely large with the Metalworker combo. Back before Ballista was printed that was my kill in Brown Stax.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  11. #491

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Made some tweaks based on a few suggestions both here and from my local MUD guy. The updated list I’m running tomorrow:

    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Metalworker
    1 Staff of Domination
    2 Walking Ballista
    3 smokestack
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    3 crucible of worlds
    2 ratchet bomb
    3 ensnaring bridge
    2 Tangle Wire
    3 Trinisphere
    4 Chalice of the Void

    3 Karn, Scion of Urza

    1Ghost Quarter
    1 mishra’s factory
    4 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 city of Traitors
    3 Inventors’ Fair
    3 Buried Ruin
    4 Rishadan Port

    SB
    1 walking ballista
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    3 faerie macabre
    3 sphere of resistance
    1 phyrexian revoker
    1 ensnaring bridge
    1 meekstone
    2 ratchet bomb
    2 grafdigger’s cage

    I’ll post updates and a little write up tomorrow night or Sunday.

    Thanks for the help!
    Shawn

  12. #492

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    So not a great day - finished 2-3 drop

    Rd1 UR Burn 0-2, 0-1
    I think I was Price of Progressed 5x in the 2 games. Only saw 1 Chalice G2 and it was smashed to smithereens.
    Rd2 Storm 2-0, 1-1
    I’ll take this matchup all day long.
    Rd3 Esper Stoneblade 0-2, 1-2
    TNN is not a good card for us. Ratchet bomb helps, but that and bridge are Our only outs.
    Rd4 Elves 2-0, 2-2
    Again. All day long I will take this match up. Chalice and trinisphere are just too good.
    Rd5 UWR Stoneblade 0-2, 2-3
    I was really tired of seeing TNN at this point.

    Out of contention, I dropped and left.

    I would much rather have seen more unfair decks - and there were lots of basics today. Not sure if Back to Basics was part of a couple of those lists, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

    Shawn

  13. #493

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by SMRiggin View Post
    So not a great day - finished 2-3 drop

    Rd1 UR Bore unfair decks - and there were lots of basics today. Not sure if Back to Basics was part of a couple of those lists, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

    Shawn
    Man, be sure to run the fullset of bridges, we would run 8 of them if we could
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  14. #494
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Man, be sure to run the fullset of bridges, we would run 8 of them if we could
    I do that in Modern all the time. I agree, 8 is a good number.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  15. #495

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    In thinking about a couple of the comments...

    We'd run 8 Bridges if we could...

    We run 4x Metalworker...

    I can't help but think that these are pulling in different directions. Should one be in the side and 1 in the main? I agree Bridge is quite strong right now, so is Metalworker worth the space?

  16. #496

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    In thinking about a couple of the comments...

    We'd run 8 Bridges if we could...

    We run 4x Metalworker...

    I can't help but think that these are pulling in different directions. Should one be in the side and 1 in the main? I agree Bridge is quite strong right now, so is Metalworker worth the space?
    They work well together in my experience; metalworker pays for bridge and dumps the hand, also grants enough mana to Inventors' Fair a bridge+dump it. With 4 Fair and 4 Metalworker it's not unlike running 8 bridges.
    Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.

  17. #497
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    In thinking about a couple of the comments...

    We'd run 8 Bridges if we could...

    We run 4x Metalworker...

    I can't help but think that these are pulling in different directions. Should one be in the side and 1 in the main? I agree Bridge is quite strong right now, so is Metalworker worth the space?
    They do, but they are in the deck for different uses. Think of it this way, the point of Stax is not to win. You are not playing to win. You are playing not to lose. In that way I split the game into three steps in my head:

    1 Setup.
    In this part of the game you are trying to restrict your opp while opening up as many options to yourself. Things like Chalice or Metalworker are best played here. You want that mana or those locks down asap. Also you want to play things that you know are going to be targeted by interaction. You may be against RUG where you know Chalice is going to screw them hard, but still play Metalworker just to push past a Force. In this step you want Mana and potholes that you can use to get to the next part of the game.

    2 Control.
    Here you are trying to build upon what you have done to remove more options. Think these are the walls to your house built upon the floor. You are trying to delay, to make life harder for your opp while taking away as many choices or points of interaction as you can. You are not actively pushing something like Stax, but you are trying to get down a Bottled Cloister or a Bridge. Points if you can get both. Metalworker here is fuel, not a plan.

    3 Endgame.
    If you can gain control this is where you abuse it. Stax starts eating the board, you have activated your Fair and you grab Crucible, you look for a Staff maybe. You are now seeking to gain the concession, worker here is either helping you with Staff or doing nothing. But this is not the thing to focus on. If you got to this point it no longer matters.

    Some other things to think about.
    You mana is unstable, some of it will kill you, some of it will kill itself. Another source is useful.
    Metalworker can block.
    Things that help in the setup and control portions of the game, like Fair, are not cheap to use. More mana means tutoring and casting in the same turn.
    Having 3 cards in hand with a Metalworker means often the ability to cast them all. You normally have 4 to 6 mana in Lands on the table in the mid game. If you add another 6 mana from Metalworker you are normally all set.

    I know it looks odd, but just because cards appear to be contradictory does not mean that they are not synergistic. They just have their roles and what matters is when you use them and what you use them for.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  18. #498

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Barachai View Post
    They work well together in my experience; metalworker pays for bridge and dumps the hand, also grants enough mana to Inventors' Fair a bridge+dump it. With 4 Fair and 4 Metalworker it's not unlike running 8 bridges.
    I guess I'm going to respectfully disagree.

    Metalworker wants cards in hand.

    Ensnaring Bridge wants no cards in hand.

    If you have Metalworker in play and active, Inventors' Fair in play, and enough artifacts in hand to activate Fair, get and drop an Ensnaring Bridge, plus dump your hand - I'm going to ask why you didn't just win? Instead of getting the Bridge in that scenario, you should get the Staff and go infinite. The Bridge isn't important here. I'm assuming, of course, that you've got enough knowledge/protection that you weren't going to the run the Bridge/Staff into a FoW, but really in that case, it wouldn't matter which one you were playing, right? So, in this scenario, Metalworker Combo > Bridge.

    So, I'm asking do you need Bridge in a Metalworker Combo deck? The only deck listed on MTGGoldfish with Metalworker posting any kind of a finish in the last 3 months is Metalworker MUD - no Ensnaring Bridge in the 75. There are a couple additional Metalworker MUD decks listed on mtgtop8.com, but nothing since the Deathrite/Probe bans with Metalworker + Ensnaring Bridge.

    The converse also may be true - do you need Metalworker Combo in a Bridge/Prison deck right now? I'm not saying you can't play the Metalworker Combo as a win condition, but do we need to? Is there something better or that is more in line with the prison plan? This seems to play like a pretty tight deck to me. You lose a lot of consistency when you move from 4-ofs on your lock cards as there isn't a lot of redundancy to Chalice, etc. in the format.


    Here's what I've been playing:

    4x Chalice of the Void
    4x Trinisphere
    4x Ensnaring Bridge
    4x Mox Diamond
    3x Crucible of Worlds
    3x Smokestack
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Sorcerous Spyglass
    2x Sphere of Resistance
    1x Bottled Cloister

    1x Random win-con (Batterskull, Wurmcoil, etc.)

    4x Lodestone Golem
    2x Karn, Scion of Urza

    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x City of Traitors
    4x Wasteland
    3x Inventors' Fair
    3x Buried Ruin
    3x Rishadan Port
    2x Mishra's Factory
    1x Horizon Canopy


    Sideboard
    1x Tormod's Crypt
    4x Extraction/Leyline/Faerie
    2x Contagion Clasp
    1x Ratchet Bomb
    3x Defense Grid
    1x Karn, Scion of Urza
    2x Sphere of Resistance
    1x Sorcerous Spyglass

  19. #499
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    But Metalworker is for setting up, getting the ball rolling. The point of the card it not to still be involved in the game at the point where you want to be empty handed. At that point your changing your role and your goals.

    Stax is a deck where you can do what you like, the deck has had its day in the sun and is no longer something anyone cares about but us. If you want to build it one way no one here is going to stop you.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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  20. #500

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    They do, but they are in the deck for different uses. Think of it this way, the point of Stax is not to win. You are not playing to win. You are playing not to lose.
    I apologize for the double post.

    I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Stax. The point of Magic is always to win. The point of Stax is to be doing it while your opponent watches with a pile of useless/unplayable cards in front of them.

    I won't get too theoretical, but Stax (any deck, really) is best when it breaks the symmetry of effects and is able to pull away with an advantage to do multiple things on each turn faster than your opponent. As you point out, the early game is for limiting your opponents options (Prison). [We make it hard for our opponent to do even 1 thing a turn]. I believe the middle game is about using your advantage to pull away from your opponent and set up inevitability - this is where the concession usually occurs (Pressure). [We move from 1 to 2+ angles per turn while the opponent struggles to focus on 1]. The end game can be Factory beat down (Win). [We finish the job]

    I've found that Metalworker dilutes what you are trying to do here. Can you play it as a win-con? Sure, but MUD uses that card/strategy better and more consistently (i.e. you use the mana generated to play win-cons and apply pressure). Can you use it for mana generation to play lock pieces? Absolutely, but then where is the pressure? I suppose if your focus is to 'not lose', great. I prefer to be working towards the win.

    I also play online more where a play clock is real. I have played a number of games where I dump my hand with Metalworker mana and then draw dead for several turns while my opponent fights back into the game and ahead of me. Like you said, sometimes the deck will lose to itself and playing cards that don't apply enough pressure on your opponent increases that chance. I prefer to go in the other direction...

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