[Primer/Deck] Stax

[barwick11]

Playing stax tonight. The metal worker list, with an added Tabernacle or two in the 75.
Ill post how it goes

Sib

It didn't go did it? Hehe... I love this deck, but it's just so hit or miss it seems.

[snoop_x]

Played an almost identical list to Dice_Box's list at my weekly legacy tournament. I went 3-0-1 with 14 players (played against Sneak and Show/Omni/Hatebears). Had to leave early so I split the last game. There's been a lot of BR Reanimator around my meta lately so I decided to play Faerie Macabre, just didn't run across it. I liked having the 3 tabernacles in the side, helps tax all those creature decks. And yes, there is 61 cards in the main as I felt like i always wanted to see a bridge sooner then later and didn't want to cut anything main as I felt they were too important to cut. Bolded the minimal changes on the list.

Creatures (4)
4x Metalworker

Spells (32)
1x Bottled Cloister
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible Of Worlds
4x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Orrery
2x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
1x Staff Of Domination
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Lands (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
2x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1x Mishra's Factory
4x Inventors' Fair

Sideboard
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x Defense Grid
3x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Phyrexian Revoker

[Dice_Box]

I have been messing around with my list. Tried adding Trading Post over Orrery, not sure how I feel overall about it, but I am going to keep that in there for the time being. I am also going to cut a Gods' Eye for a second Factory. Since its the only part of them combo I can't fetch I want to be able to draw it more naturally quicker. I personally like the second Eye, but I have not had it play the envisioned role often enough for me to keep a pair.

[ghostfire86]

I just finished out my mono black Pox and now have my eyes set to build White Stax with a Green splash. Would like some opinions:

Mainboard
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Magus of the tabernacle

3 Armageddon

4 Ghostly Prison
4 Oblivion Ring

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

3 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of trokair
1 Ghostly Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell
3 Wasteland


Sideboard
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Auta of Silence
2 Choke
3 Karmic Justice
2 Defense Grid
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle

[Fred_Bear]

I just finished out my mono black Pox and now have my eyes set to build White Stax with a Green splash. Would like some opinions:

Mainboard
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Magus of the tabernacle

3 Armageddon

4 Ghostly Prison
4 Oblivion Ring

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere

3 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of trokair
1 Ghostly Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell
3 Wasteland


Sideboard
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Auta of Silence
2 Choke
3 Karmic Justice
2 Defense Grid
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle

I think it's an interesting starting point. I'll be interested to see how your testing goes...

For individual card choices:

Eternal Dragon never worked out the way I wanted it to back when I ran a similar list (years ago). Early, you want to focus on assembling some kind of a lock, not 'wasting' time developing mana. It's a nice trick when it works, just not as consistent as stronger/more lock pieces.

I found splashing green to be better (more consistent) when you add a Savannah (or 2) and Sylvan Library. I'm not sure the mana base you are on will be consistent enough to cast green out of the sideboard. Certainly worth testing, but 5 sources with no search seems light to me.

Having played the Armageddon Stax versions extensively a while back (check the archived thread here), I'm interested to see what your experience is in the current meta. I've played a little online with it and have had trouble with a lot of the speedy reanimation/show and tell decks. You have a better long game than most of the grind/tempo/control decks, but can't really stop a turn 1-2 Griselbrand or Reality Smasher (or sometimes even a fair turn 2 Tarmogoyf).

When I have tinkered with this deck more recently, I like Lodestone Golem, Thought-Knot Seer, and access to Phyrexian Revoker in the board. I prefer a straight white base with full 4-of sets of sol-lands and Wastelands. I recently upped my Karakas to 2 because of the popularity of reanimating Legends... I also tend towards a more 'vintage-esque' build and run Sphere of Resistance as an additional turn 1 disruption. When I tested the Inventors' Fair Stax build, my favorite card was Ensnaring Bridge, though, and that may be better suited for the current meta-game. I also wouldn't try to run a list without Sanctum Prelate in the side as long as Abrupt Decay is a thing...

Good luck testing!

[ghostfire86]

Thanks for the info. Eternal Dragon in truth is a filler...to a point. It just feels right on paper, but the utilization of him I do think will be lop sided. I've considered the possibility of a WOG mainboard, peacekeeper, or loading in a play set of Rishadan Port instead of the Mishra's Factory while looking for a different wincon like Elspeth, knight-errant.

Eventually I want the list to resemble Dutch Stax, but moat just costs way to much atm.

sylvan library would solve some other issues I have been thinking about, but I worry about that moment that I have two counters on chalice of the void and finally draw the library (dead draw). Will have to test it out if my current list fails to perform well.

[mykatdied]

Personally if I ran any white variant of stax I'm running humilty. Eldrazi basically can't beat it and you get to laugh at so many of the creatures in this meta.

[chaosjace]

When are they gonna print a Spirit Spirit Guide that you can exile from your hand to add a white mana?
Or even gemstone cavern, I think if we could get a turn earlier this deck would be amazing.

[GoldenCid]

When are they gonna print a Spirit Spirit Guide that you can exile from your hand to add a white mana?
Or even gemstone cavern, I think if we could get a turn earlier this deck would be amazing.

Maybe Papá Noel is bringing it this year! :P

[Fred_Bear]

Thanks for the info. Eternal Dragon in truth is a filler...to a point. It just feels right on paper, but the utilization of him I do think will be lop sided. I've considered the possibility of a WOG mainboard, peacekeeper, or loading in a play set of Rishadan Port instead of the Mishra's Factory while looking for a different wincon like Elspeth, knight-errant.

Eventually I want the list to resemble Dutch Stax, but moat just costs way to much atm.

sylvan library would solve some other issues I have been thinking about, but I worry about that moment that I have two counters on chalice of the void and finally draw the library (dead draw). Will have to test it out if my current list fails to perform well.

Personally, I wouldn't waste time with Port or at least not a full playset. Stax really wants to be pumping out permanents that have the taxing effect, not spending two mana a turn to tap 1 land. D&T gets away with it because they can use Vial to cheat creatures into play. We want to tax their mana base, but lock pieces are usually just better. You could play one to keep them off a color or a mana, but I always found it to be 'win-more' once you are using it. Wrath is too slow, in my opinion, for the current meta and Peacekeeper is too fragile (without help).

I could see the Dutch Stax route, but I'm not sure how you'll do in the current meta. It's much better against traditional aggro, so I'm not sure if it would make the best choice against Miracles and Delver (there are pretty obvious benefits against Eldrazi). I always thought it was a slow deck (and too inconsistent for my liking) but I'd be interested to see how it would fare in the current meta. Has anyone tried it?

I never tried more than two Sylvan Libraries, so I didn't really worry about the interaction with Chalice at 2. I also played Spheres/Thorns and Chalice at 2 came up much less than you might think (I usually went 1, 0, and then 2).

Personally if I ran any white variant of stax I'm running humilty. Eldrazi basically can't beat it and you get to laugh at so many of the creatures in this meta.

It might be worthwhile in the 75 for utility, but I don't think you 'have' to run it. Eldrazi struggles with mana disruption and a Ghostly Prison and/or Magus of the Tabernacle can give them fits. If you manage to combo either with an Armageddon, they are done... That's not to say Humility isn't useful, it is, but most decks are cheating mana so badly that they can't handle a Ghostly Prison either.

When are they gonna print a Spirit Spirit Guide that you can exile from your hand to add a white mana?
Or even gemstone cavern, I think if we could get a turn earlier this deck would be amazing.

I hope acceleration doesn't come in a one-shot form. Stax needs the permanents, not just a boost (otherwise, we'd play Crystal Vein). I'd be more impressed if we got a good mana rock or a new sol-land. Neither will happen anytime soon, but it's nice to dream...

[ghostfire86]

Just ordered my cards so I'll be playing soon. After a few games I'll update

[caprino]

[QUOTE=Dice_Box;978592]For the record, my current list is as follows:

Creatures (4)
4x Metalworker

Spells (31)
1x Bottled Cloister
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible Of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Orrery
2x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
1x Staff Of Domination
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Lands (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
2x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1x Mishra's Factory
4x Inventors' Fair

Sideboard
1x Bottled Cloister
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Defense Grid
3x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Phyrexian Revoker

I like adding Trading Post in somewhere. I will look to do that later[/QUOTE

nice list...help me side out and side in vs tiers deck ok?thanks

[Barachai]

I've been playing with the list for the past month or so. Mainboard is generally identical to Dicebox's list (one week I ran Trading Post instead of Orrery, was good, deserves another run). I've struggled most with the sideboard, currently testing this:

2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Defense Grid
1 Tormod's Crypt - I find Ensnaring Bridge to be solid vs a lot of graveyard strategies, and I like being able to inventors' fair into a zero drop
2 Wurmcoil Engine - The best card I've been able to pull in vs midrange/dismantling strategies. Tempted to up this to 3. Can get stuck in hand though.
2 Welding Jar - because getting my things blown up is how I lose
1 - not sure. Has been an extra cloister, zuran orb, tabernacle.

I'm tempted to try Ugin, but 8 mana is a pretty tall order even with metalworkers in the deck. Even better than wurmcoil vs the fair decks though, and may even give the deck a fighting chance against nic fit (which showed up at last week's fnm).

Thoughts?

[Dice_Box]

Ugin as a sideboard card might not be too bad. The question I would ask is when do you want him? If you are bringing him in against decks that you also need to hide under a bridge, no, he is bad there. If you need him in more controlling matches I can see his use. But I would not look at running an 8 drop in my deck when I hope to hold back an army with a bridge. On the flip side, I really like the Wurmcoils. They can act like Bridges in the aggressive matches and they can be clocks in control matches. There is a lot of good in that card, I think they are a good addition.

Welding Jar... Thats fucking Genius. Decay is the biggest kick in the teeth. I really like that choice. I will try and find some space for it later.

Right now my 75 is such:
Creatures (4)
4x Metalworker

Spells (31)
1x Bottled Cloister
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible Of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Orrery
2x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
1x Staff Of Domination
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Lands (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2x Mishra's Factory
4x Inventors' Fair

Sideboard
1x Bottled Cloister
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Defense Grid
3x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Phyrexian Revoker

[caprino]

Ugin as a sideboard card might not be too bad. The question I would ask is when do you want him? If you are bringing him in against decks that you also need to hide under a bridge, no, he is bad there. If you need him in more controlling matches I can see his use. But I would not look at running an 8 drop in my deck when I hope to hold back an army with a bridge. On the flip side, I really like the Wurmcoils. They can act like Bridges in the aggressive matches and they can be clocks in control matches. There is a lot of good in that card, I think they are a good addition.

Welding Jar... Thats fucking Genius. Decay is the biggest kick in the teeth. I really like that choice. I will try and find some space for it later.

Right now my 75 is such:
Creatures (4)
4x Metalworker

Spells (31)
1x Bottled Cloister
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible Of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ghirapur Orrery
2x Grim Monolith
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
1x Staff Of Domination
4x Tangle Wire
4x Trinisphere

Lands (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Ghost Quarter
4x Wasteland
1x Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2x Mishra's Factory
4x Inventors' Fair

Sideboard
1x Bottled Cloister
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Ratchet Bomb
3x Defense Grid
3x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Phyrexian Revoker

Why 3 tabernacle in side?

[Dice_Box]

Redundancy. I want one down asap and it is something I got into the grove with when I was playing Vintage Terra Nova. (Thats the reason I have 3) Since we do not have a lot of card draw, you just do what most non Blue decks do and brute force your way into making something work. The games that Tabernacle is good in, its best you find it fast. In the games its bad it can stay where it is.

[caprino]

Redundancy. I want one down asap and it is something I got into the grove with when I was playing Vintage Terra Nova. (Thats the reason I have 3) Since we do not have a lot of card draw, you just do what most non Blue decks do and brute force your way into making something work. The games that Tabernacle is good in, its best you find it fast. In the games its bad it can stay where it is.

I test you list... Help me side guide (side out and side in) Vs tier deck(miracle, ant, eldrazi, grixis, bug delver, bug shardless, land, Sneak attack, show and tell, death and taxes, infect) thanks

[Dice_Box]

I test you list... Help me side guide (side out and side in) Vs tier deck(miracle, ant, eldrazi, grixis, bug delver, bug shardless, land, Sneak attack, show and tell, death and taxes, infect) thanks

Will do. If I do not get back to you by the 3rd, PM me and I will update. I was actually thinking about a MUD Stax Primer, but I am not anywhere near the level of writing that yet. I think it would be of benefit though as this thread is currently being used for both MUD and White stax.

Oh and the short one I know off hand, against Lands put a Chalice on 2 asap or lose. Cut the Orrery and all the Tangle Wire on the draw (They can flood the board faster than Wire can control them) and bring in Bomb, Bridge and Cloister. When you are on the play, bring in the Wires, cut the second Cloister and the Smokestax. The Bomb is the most useful card here, as dropping it and putting it on 1 can cut their Acceleration. The way you lose the game is if they can Waste AND drop another land a turn, eating away at your mana and slowly getting ahead. If they show Vortex or Seismic Assault you can think about bringing in Revoker but I personally would not. Punishing Fire makes that a tough card to stick and Chalice on 2 kills the fuel. Aim for that first and then Bomb away the card. Also Chalice on 2 kills Revoker.

Infect, Waste and Tabernacle wins games. If you can get them in a 1,2 punch your gold. Quarter is nearly a Strip mine here as they do not have more than a single basic. Try and hide that you have Quarter until after they fetch it trying to hold off the Wastelands.

[caprino]

Will do. If I do not get back to you by the 3rd, PM me and I will update. I was actually thinking about a MUD Stax Primer, but I am not anywhere near the level of writing that yet. I think it would be of benefit though as this thread is currently being used for both MUD and White stax.

Oh and the short one I know off hand, against Lands put a Chalice on 2 asap or lose. Cut the Orrery and all the Tangle Wire on the draw (They can flood the board faster than Wire can control them) and bring in Bomb, Bridge and Cloister. When you are on the play, bring in the Wires, cut the second Cloister and the Smokestax. The Bomb is the most useful card here, as dropping it and putting it on 1 can cut their Acceleration. The way you lose the game is if they can Waste AND drop another land a turn, eating away at your mana and slowly getting ahead. If they show Vortex or Seismic Assault you can think about bringing in Revoker but I personally would not. Punishing Fire makes that a tough card to stick and Chalice on 2 kills the fuel. Aim for that first and then Bomb away the card. Also Chalice on 2 kills Revoker.

Infect, Waste and Tabernacle wins games. If you can get them in a 1,2 punch your gold. Quarter is nearly a Strip mine here as they do not have more than a single basic. Try and hide that you have Quarter until after they fetch it trying to hold off the Wastelands.

i no have 3 tabernacle...change 3 slot help me

[Dice_Box]

You could add what I cut then, Graveyard hate. Crypt, Cage or Relic. The other option is to look at cards like Cursed Totem, Welding Jar or Spellskite. If you do not need grave hate, I think I would go with 2 Welding Jar and another Bomb. Bomb makes it easier to beat the aggressive decks Tab is in there for because you can take out the early creatures before you find a Bridge.