[Primer/Deck] Stax

[CptHaddock]

I enjoyed the vids, I must ask though why you would always tap your Tombs for pain man when you did not have to. You had an Urborg in play at one point and you had the right amount of land to cast things, yet you would always leave a man open and take a pain over tapping for Black.

Sometimes you need to take 2 damage to send your opponent a message.

[Fred_Bear]

Against the Eldrazi Taxes there were certainly a few misplays, but I think you could've lasted longer in game 1 and 2 if you prioritized keeping your man lands up and playing out Mishra's Factories, since they can pump each other to block the Thalias.

I remember thinking the same thing at first. New Thalia brings factories into play tapped, though, which in at least one instance was the case, so it wouldn't have helped with pump. In another situation, the opponent had an active Displacer which was able to blink the Factory before blocking. There were a couple of misplays, but nothing that would've swung that match.

[Dice_Box]

Yea, when the Displacer hit I knew it was in for shit. The correct play would be to tick Bomb to 3 and blow the Displacer, but you had to blow it on 2 or die. It was just a world of shit with no real answer. In the end, its a perfect example of why Stax is not top tier. Its unstable and loses to itself. Also this is the reason I run Tab Main with Ghost Quarters. Sometimes you just fucking get them.

[Claymore]

Yeah after looking at Game 2 again, I think he was prioritizing Porting to prevent Reality Smasher from hitting the field. There was a point where Wasteland was played instead of a Factory, but then the Golem was STP'd anyway and Smasher hit right after. Could port to prevent the smasher but then lose the Factory to Swords, so I think it was all going downhill anyway.

[Chronatog]

So I ran a league with STAX after changing the list a bit. You can watch it here
https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...y-league-stax/
Or here
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...oF6cZQrYRITTIL
I hope you enjoy it!

It was a pleasure to watch a non-cheesy deck in action.

On a separate note, the only lesson we learn from history is that we don't learn from history; there were so many people who were aspired to become monarchs but who died tragically in their futile attempts. God bless the Queen! ;)

[SMRiggin]

Good morning everyone! Long time lurker, but I finally have some relevant discussion so I thought I'd post. I played WStax long ago, but always hated the inconsistency with Sol Lands, Ports, Wastelands and I never felt like I had enough white sources to be consistent enough.

I've always been a prison player at heart. I played Pox for a long time and took a Prison Pox list to a T16 finish at an SCG Legacy open a few years back.

I've come full circle and I'm jonesing to play some stax again. I tested some red stax with blood moon, chalice, etc. Turned into Mono Red Sneak, but wasn't prisony enough for me.

So I'm back. I'm staying. I was inspired by a few of the colorless builds, so I put a list together and I'd like a little feedback.

4 lodestone golem

3 smokestack
4 tanglewire
4 chalice
4 ratchet bomb
4 sphere of resistance
3 ensnaring bridge
3 mox diamond
3 crucible of worlds
1 trading post (this is my flex slot and most likely to change)

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
3 Rishadan Port
4 wasteland
4 mutavault
4 mishra's factory
2 inventor's fair
1 dust bowl
1 drownyard temple

I would love thoughts and suggestions. I know I've shunned the 4 stack 4 crucible crowd by only including 3 of each, but in testing it always felt bad to have 2 smokestacks in hand early on.

Thanks,
Shawn

[SMRiggin]

Had a small 10 person tournament - played the list directly above. Had a blast.

Rd1 Burn 2-1, 1-0
Lost g1 quickly. G2 saw T1 chalice for 1 followed by chalice on 2 T2. Walked to that win. G3 saw chalice on 1 T1, followed by multiple sphere effects. Stabilized at 3 after he sacked 2 lands to fireblast with 2 sphere effects on the board. Landed third sphere effect and inventor's fair life gain pulled me out of the hole long enough to beat down with 2 factories.

Rd2 BR Reanimator 2-0, 2-0
G1, T1 chalice on 1, T2 Lodestone, T3 lodestone. Opponent scooped. G2 was chalice T2, mutavaults beat down. Kept a 1-lander and sphere effects shut him down.

Rd3 Lands 2-1, 3-0
Aggressively used ancient tomb (to the tune of 14 life lost) landed chalice T1 and spheres T2, T3, Lodestone T4. Never got to loam as I beat him down and used port to tap down lands. He had glacial chasm and stage going for a few turns until I found Dust bowl. G2 lost T3. G3 won a sphere effect filled game where he managed to make a 20/20, but I kept it tapped down with multiple tangle wires until lodestone could finish the job.

Rd4 BR Reanimator 2-1, 4-0
Won G1 after chalice T1 and Smokestack landed t4. Opponent conceded too early, imho. G2 lost to T1 reanimate Grizzle. Tapped down a few turns w/ multiple tangle wires, but only got him down to 8 before he started attacking. G3 won through his blood moon when he locked himself out of black mana and couldn't reanimate. Factories won the beat down with sphere backup.

1st through Swiss

T4 UB Reanumator 1-2, 4-1
G1 chalice on T1, smokestack turn 5. Used ratchet bomb to blow up a lotus petal. G2 saw tide spout reanimated t2. Bye bye permanents. G3 boarded in show package and I stuck a bridge on the show. Bought me a few turns. Tapped down stuff w/ tangle wire. Knocked him down to 5 through lodestone attacks before he found tides pout and bounced my bridge.

Had fun. Trading post was only drawn a few times and was always bad. I think that will change to phyrexian metamorph to potentially copy other fatties.

Shawn

[LoveAndLockPieces]

Had a small 10 person tournament - played the list directly above. Had a blast.

(report...)

Had fun. Trading post was only drawn a few times and was always bad. I think that will change to phyrexian metamorph to potentially copy other fatties.

Shawn

Thanks for sharing!

Your list looks pretty close to the list that has been going around, with successes for a user on MTGO. I was impressed by the list as it has remain largely unchanged over time, with about 3 lands rotating through as new cards are printed. It looks like you've trimmed a Smokestack and Cruicible for the (Trading Post now Metamorph) and an extra flex land. Metamorph seems like a good choice.

I have settled on trimming a Smokestack and Ensnaring Bridge for two flex slots, undecided. And I'm running 1 Inventors' Fair, 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and 1 Ghost Quarter in those three land slots, currently.

I have tried Thought-Knot Seer (good) and Oblivion Sower (cute!) in that slot. I was hoping to use Sower to grab a bunch of sac'able permanents, but it hasn't worked out. TKS has performed well, but sometimes causes trouble because it is taxed by Lodestone Golem. I've also considered running Metalworker (almost as a bait spell) or another Sphere in that slot.

The ideal candidate is a 4 or 5 cost threat that also provides a disruptive element. (Four to dodge Abrupt Decay, Five to dodge Fatal Push). Obviously there isn't another Lodestone Golem, so not sure what to run. Lately there have been mentions of Razormane Masticore in Vintage 'Shops. And that is an interesting choice. It is the right cost. Is picking off the stray Deathrite disruptive enough?

...

Overall, very happy with the list. The mana feels just about right. I tried a few variations (adding another Mox) and came back to the baseline config of 26 lands and three Mox. I feel like most games I'm in it. And, in losses, can often point to a particular screw up where some decision cost me the game. It's close and then slips away. Which is nice. (Except for getting completely rolled by Death and Taxes when their disruption curves out perfectly, then it is a bloodbath.)

I'm having surprising trouble against some control decks, though. Like Mentor Miracles. On one hand, this is because Mentor is completely disruptive to winning the permanent race on board. But also, we don't have many true threats. Against a savvy opponent it often goes: they counter the second Sphere and still have a counter for Smokestack. Or manage to remove the Golem with Tangle Wire triggers on the stack. And that's all she wrote. The Factory beats aren't that quick. Which can give the opponent enough time to crawl out from under the Spheres and Wires.

I guess, you can't have it all. I'm still winning more than I'm losing. And really enjoying the deck.

Would love any thoughts on how to beat a control opponent who knows what's what. Or feedback on additional pieces like Metamorph.

[SMRiggin]

Thanks for sharing!

Your list looks pretty close to the list that has been going around, with successes for a user on MTGO. I was impressed by the list as it has remain largely unchanged over time, with about 3 lands rotating through as new cards are printed. It looks like you've trimmed a Smokestack and Cruicible for the (Trading Post now Metamorph) and an extra flex land. Metamorph seems like a good choice.

I have settled on trimming a Smokestack and Ensnaring Bridge for two flex slots, undecided. And I'm running 1 Inventors' Fair, 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and 1 Ghost Quarter in those three land slots, currently.

I have tried Thought-Knot Seer (good) and Oblivion Sower (cute!) in that slot. I was hoping to use Sower to grab a bunch of sac'able permanents, but it hasn't worked out. TKS has performed well, but sometimes causes trouble because it is taxed by Lodestone Golem. I've also considered running Metalworker (almost as a bait spell) or another Sphere in that slot.

The ideal candidate is a 4 or 5 cost threat that also provides a disruptive element. (Four to dodge Abrupt Decay, Five to dodge Fatal Push). Obviously there isn't another Lodestone Golem, so not sure what to run. Lately there have been mentions of Razormane Masticore in Vintage 'Shops. And that is an interesting choice. It is the right cost. Is picking off the stray Deathrite disruptive enough?

...

Overall, very happy with the list. The mana feels just about right. I tried a few variations (adding another Mox) and came back to the baseline config of 26 lands and three Mox. I feel like most games I'm in it. And, in losses, can often point to a particular screw up where some decision cost me the game. It's close and then slips away. Which is nice. (Except for getting completely rolled by Death and Taxes when their disruption curves out perfectly, then it is a bloodbath.)

I'm having surprising trouble against some control decks, though. Like Mentor Miracles. On one hand, this is because Mentor is completely disruptive to winning the permanent race on board. But also, we don't have many true threats. Against a savvy opponent it often goes: they counter the second Sphere and still have a counter for Smokestack. Or manage to remove the Golem with Tangle Wire triggers on the stack. And that's all she wrote. The Factory beats aren't that quick. Which can give the opponent enough time to crawl out from under the Spheres and Wires.

I guess, you can't have it all. I'm still winning more than I'm losing. And really enjoying the deck.

Would love any thoughts on how to beat a control opponent who knows what's what. Or feedback on additional pieces like Metamorph.

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't played enough with the list to have solid ideas against the mentor miracles list. Our meta lost all miracles locally when top was banned. I have a bigger tournament in another 3 weeks or so, we will see what happens in that one. Sorry I can't be more help.

I like metamorph the more I test. It can be that reactionary threat response or it can be used proactively to create another sphere effect or lodestone.

I also played 1 Sun Droplet in the SB and I really liked it. Ancient Tomb deals damage so it triggers Droplet.

If you are running the urborg, one other lock piece you might want is Nether Void. I ran it in Prison Pox and as long as I wasn't behind on board, I pretty much auto-won.

Shawn

[Steveman]

Sorcerous Spyglass is hot new tech for Stax. Not only does it shut down problematic cards like Deathrite Shaman / JTMS / AEther Vial / etc, but it also shuts down fetchlands on the play. Having a new turn 1 play that doesn't require Mox Diamond makes Stax more explosive. Fetches are no longer completely safe from lockdown and this gives Stax a new angle of resource denial and threat containment.

I took my classic Stax shell and replaced the 3 Ensnaring Bridges with 3 Sorcerous Spyglass, it's been testing quite well.

25 LAND
6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

35 SPELLS
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Crucible of World
4 Banishing Light
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Null Rod

[non-inflammable]

I took my classic Stax shell and replaced the 3 Ensnaring Bridges with 3 Sorcerous Spyglass, it's been testing quite well.

mishra's factory are the only beats? that's ballsy...
and what's the real difference between oblivion ring and banishing light? why the 4-1 split?

[paradaxarada]

My Stax Spyglass List:

Land (27)

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
1x Drownyard Temple
1x Dunes of the Dead
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Grasping Dunes
3x Inventors' Fair
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Wasteland

Artifact (31)

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Mox Diamond
3x Smokestack
4x Sorcerous Spyglass
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire

Creature (2)

1x Hangarback Walker
1x Walking Ballista

Sideboard (15)

1x Forcefield
2x Hangarback Walker
1x Helm of Obedience
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Mindbreak Trap
2x Walking Ballista
3x Warping Wail

Sphere is much more valueble on this deck these days than Trinisphere, as it tax Kcommand, Leovold, JTMS, Show and tell, Blood Moon, fiery confluence, etc...

[Steveman]

mishra's factory are the only beats? that's ballsy...
and what's the real difference between oblivion ring and banishing light? why the 4-1 split?

Stax's main win condition is lockdown. I'm never going to win a race via a traditional win condition against their win conditions, therefore creatures are superfluous to the deck. Mishra's Factory is an uncounterable, recursive win condition that also doubles as a mana source. A creature is a waste of a slot, IMO.

Banishing Light is almost strictly better since it can only target permanents that an opponent controls. This means that you play Banishing Light when your opponent has an empty board to feed Smokestack you're still maintaining. It's a very minor upside, but I'll take all the upsides I can get. The only advantage Oblivion Ring really has is if you need to O-Ring your own Chalice for whatever reason to resolve a certain spell and in Hypergenesis scenarios when your opponent has Terastodon. These occasions are much more rare than the Banishing Light scenarios.

[MGB]

I tried playing this deck on MODO a few times but it's crazy hard to keep your time clock under a reasonable amount when you have all of those triggers to stack.

[non-inflammable]

Stax's main win condition is lockdown.

not many people want to play with zero permanents in play, been there...

Banishing Light is almost strictly better since it can only target permanents that an opponent controls.
This means that you play Banishing Light when your opponent has an empty board to feed Smokestack you're still maintaining

that's what i didn't see; cant wait for spyglass...

[LoveAndLockPieces]

Partially at Steveman's list, but also open to anyone's thoughts: I've noticed several experienced players foregoing any dedicated graveyard answers in their sideboards.

Does this come from confidence that the general strategy of shutting down opposing spells and combat is effective enough? Or is it a meta call of not expecting to need it?

My local scene ebbs and flows, but any given week there could be spike in BR Reanimator decks. I don't feel comfortable without Leyline of the Void or a set of Faerie Macabre. I guess Humility can do a fine job at invalidating Reanimator and Dredge while not being as limited. But then, to get there, you're counting on getting 3 turns in. And sometimes you don't get even one.

[Steveman]

Partially at Steveman's list, but also open to anyone's thoughts: I've noticed several experienced players foregoing any dedicated graveyard answers in their sideboards.

Does this come from confidence that the general strategy of shutting down opposing spells and combat is effective enough? Or is it a meta call of not expecting to need it?

My local scene ebbs and flows, but any given week there could be spike in BR Reanimator decks. I don't feel comfortable without Leyline of the Void or a set of Faerie Macabre. I guess Humility can do a fine job at invalidating Reanimator and Dredge while not being as limited. But then, to get there, you're counting on getting 3 turns in. And sometimes you don't get even one.

Graveyard decks take a lot of damage from Chalice / Humility already. My list in particular has 5 Oblivion Ring effects so removal is not a problem.

EDIT: there is room for flexibility in my sideboard, especially for local metas. I’ve been using the same sideboard cards forever to try and cover all my bases. This sb was designed during Goblin / Merfolk days, but it’s still effective.

[caprino]

Graveyard decks take a lot of damage from Chalice / Humility already. My list in particular has 5 Oblivion Ring effects so removal is not a problem.

EDIT: there is room for flexibility in my sideboard, especially for local metas. I’ve been using the same sideboard cards forever to try and cover all my bases. This sb was designed during Goblin / Merfolk days, but it’s still effective.

Write You List thx

[Steveman]

Write You List thx

25 LAND
6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra’s Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

35 SPELLS
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Crucible of World
4 Banishing Light
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Trinisphere
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Null Rod

[SMRiggin]

So what are people swapping out for the Spyglass? I'm running a mono-brown list (it's a little further up the page.) I'm curious to see what people are cutting to find room for it, as I want to give it a go but I only have 1 real flex slot that is currently Phyrexian Metamorph.

Thx,
Shawn