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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Stax

  1. #421

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    I tweaked Mr. Coyle's list to fit my playstyle and I've been having moderate success with it. I started my legacy career with MUD (wurmcoils, forgemasters, blightsteels, etc.) long ago before switching to other decks (DnT, Miracles, Infect), and this mono brown pile of cards has felt much more consistent and powerful than my experience with big creature MUD ever did. Here's my current list:

    Creatures (3):
    3 Metalworker

    Spells (31):
    1 Staff of Domination
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere
    3 Tangle Wire
    3 Sorcerous Spyglass
    4 Smokestack
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Diamond

    Lands (26):
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Buried Ruin
    4 Inventor's Fair
    4 Wasteland
    2 Ghost Quarter
    2 Darksteel Citadel
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    1 Gemstone Caverns

    Sideboard:
    2 Walking Ballista
    1 Metalworker
    2 Lodestone Golem
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Thorn of Amythest
    1 Staff of Domination
    1 Tangle Wire


    I consider the Gemstone Caverns in the main deck and the 4th Tangle Wire in the sideboard to be flex slots. Everything else has been outperforming and I'm still currently happy with those two choices regardless of them not being shining stars like everything else.

    Spyglass is excellent at shutting down Deathrite and Wasteland, which are the two most common ways I lose with the deck, as well as other pesky permanents such as Jace and his -12. After establishing the lock and my mana base I'm happy to eat my own Spyglass with Smokestack if I named wasteland to turn the mana denial back on with my own wastelands. Picking off fetches has won me games, but I usually lean to naming cards I know may be a problem down the line (Deathrite, Deathrite, Deathrite) and hitting fetches with second copies of Spyglass or naming them when my opponent has no other relevant targets rather than take the gamble that they wont draw more land topdeck (it seems like 2 out of 3 times they topdeck into perfect mana bases, but you do occasionally get them). The information is really relevant turn 1 as well, setting up the correct lock pieces / FoW bait the following turns.

    I originally tried Coyle's list verbatim, and found that the Serum Powders weren't nearly as helpful with mulligans as I needed them to be (they either didn't show up or made the hand less powerful themselves) and were terrible top decks when I needed lock pieces. Similarly with Rishadan Port, I found my own deck to be mana hungry in the early turns, and prefer wasteland/ghost quarter for finishing the lock in the later turns. Removing the Serum Powders I found that the deck wants 26 lands to consistently see good hands, and in the rare case Tabernacle is dead for a match (it usually outperforms) it still pitches to Mox Diamond. Darksteels keep the artifact/non-artifact ratio at 3-2 for Metalworker shenanigans and provide some light shielding against enemy wastelands.

    Lodestone generally comes in when Bridges go out (mostly against noncreature combo), and finishes the game quickly before they find their Hurkyl's Recall or what have you. I miss the Sphere of Resistance's a little (Aluren and Food Chain), but am happier with Thorn in all other matches, as Thorn into Metalworker or Lodestone is often gg.

    The 4th Metalworker comes in when the 2nd staff or Ballista's do. He is broken with either, and I like the 2-2 split because Ballista can be powerful on its own.

    I have felt strong against delver (BUG has the most game against this list, but I think the match is at worst 50-50), DnT, Elves, Aluren, Reanimator (when they don't turn 1 Grisel/Sire), SnS, Storm and similar lists, and any Dark Depths / Lands variants. Miracles feels 50-50, and so does Food Chain.

    Czech Pile feels bad. Blade decks feel slightly unfavorable. If a deck has consistent answers to artifacts while spitting out utility creatures with P/T <= 3 things are at their hardest I think.

    Every once in a while the deck loses to itself with mulligans, or an opponent's 1 of wasteland, but then again I think every non-blue deck can maybe only slightly less often than this does. You pay a price for not having cantrips. There is an equal or greater amount of times where the deck has a busted opening and the lock is established immediately, regardless of the opposing deck. Not a terrible trade.

    I've been having a blast building and playing this, this has been the best hard prison has ever felt to me. Thanks everyone for introducing the core pieces and sharing your experiences.

  2. #422
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    kingtk3's Avatar
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    I've been goldfishing with Coyle's list too (sadly not being able to attend some IRL tournament yet) and I'm dubious about Serum powder too: I know this kind of deck is very dependant on the starting hand, and in theory Serum Powder should help with this issue, but it also is a do-nothing-card (since it costs 3 and our biggest CC is 4 it's not even ramp because a single land would do the same).

    Do someone have experience with the card?

    Thanks
    Ignorance is strength

  3. #423

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanced View Post
    I tweaked Mr. Coyle's list to fit my playstyle and I've been having moderate success with it. I started my legacy career with MUD (wurmcoils, forgemasters, blightsteels, etc.) long ago before switching to other decks (DnT, Miracles, Infect), and this mono brown pile of cards has felt much more consistent and powerful than my experience with big creature MUD ever did. Here's my current list:

    Creatures (3):
    3 Metalworker

    Spells (31):
    1 Staff of Domination
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere
    3 Tangle Wire
    3 Sorcerous Spyglass
    4 Smokestack
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Diamond

    Lands (26):
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Buried Ruin
    4 Inventor's Fair
    4 Wasteland
    2 Ghost Quarter
    2 Darksteel Citadel
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    1 Gemstone Caverns

    Sideboard:
    2 Walking Ballista
    1 Metalworker
    2 Lodestone Golem
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Thorn of Amythest
    1 Staff of Domination
    1 Tangle Wire


    I consider the Gemstone Caverns in the main deck and the 4th Tangle Wire in the sideboard to be flex slots. Everything else has been outperforming and I'm still currently happy with those two choices regardless of them not being shining stars like everything else.

    I know you mention that some of this is 'play style', but are you sure it's not 'meta' dependent? You have several slots that I wouldn't necessarily agree with unless you have a fairly defined meta. Things like Darksteel Citadel, Ghost Quarter, and main-deck Tabernacle are questionable unless you have some additional information as they can severely under-perform in some match-ups. All are good choices in a given environment, but become potentially more debatable in a large-tournament environment.


    Quote Originally Posted by kingtk3 View Post
    I've been goldfishing with Coyle's list too (sadly not being able to attend some IRL tournament yet) and I'm dubious about Serum powder too: I know this kind of deck is very dependant on the starting hand, and in theory Serum Powder should help with this issue, but it also is a do-nothing-card (since it costs 3 and our biggest CC is 4 it's not even ramp because a single land would do the same).

    Do someone have experience with the card?

    Thanks
    I've been playing Brown and White Stax in legacy for over 10 years. Serum Powder isn't really one of the slots I'd play with in Coyle's build. At worst, it is a 3-CMC mana rock that sacrifices to Smokestack. At best, it allows you to mulligan a slow 6-card hand into 7-cards of gas.

    This deck is set up to go more aggressively for the hard lock and Serum Powder feeds into that. Stax needs the unfair opening to get started and Serum Powder allows you to try and do that more. There are lots of 'fair' hands that you just can't keep with Stax because they are too slow in a competitive environment.

  4. #424

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    I know you mention that some of this is 'play style', but are you sure it's not 'meta' dependent? You have several slots that I wouldn't necessarily agree with unless you have a fairly defined meta. Things like Darksteel Citadel, Ghost Quarter, and main-deck Tabernacle are questionable unless you have some additional information as they can severely under-perform in some match-ups. All are good choices in a given environment, but become potentially more debatable in a large-tournament environment.




    I've been playing Brown and White Stax in legacy for over 10 years. Serum Powder isn't really one of the slots I'd play with in Coyle's build. At worst, it is a 3-CMC mana rock that sacrifices to Smokestack. At best, it allows you to mulligan a slow 6-card hand into 7-cards of gas.

    This deck is set up to go more aggressively for the hard lock and Serum Powder feeds into that. Stax needs the unfair opening to get started and Serum Powder allows you to try and do that more. There are lots of 'fair' hands that you just can't keep with Stax because they are too slow in a competitive environment.

    Of the cards you listed I have trouble thinking of metas where those cards under perform, especially Tabernacle. If you are not in a meta with aggro creature decks I would consider that outside of the norm, and Tabernacle still does work rarely against big creature decks, and as I said pitches to Diamond. I personally will not be removing it from the MD anytime soon in any meta, unless I know everyone in the room is on Dark Depths or ANT storm (Tabernacle is still perfectly fine against TES btw). Ghost Quarter can occasionally be dead but is not against Czech Pile or Delver, two of the boogie men of the format that I think are played rather consistently, and can pick off those 1-2 pesky basics in lists than run them, as well as be your alternative mana denial plan with starts where you need Spyglass on Wasteland to protect your own mana base. Darksteel is artifacts 25-26 when you lose powder from the list, I can agree that my wasteland protection argument is weak (though not irrelevant), however I couldn't find a better artifact land for the slot.

    I think perhaps my most debatable inclusion after I thought about it for a while when changing the list was the 3 maindeck Spyglass. Honestly other than Omnitell and Burn filled metas I am convinced they deserve the slot as I've been playing games, the (overall, i.e. mtgtop8) meta is ripe with targets.

    I found myself with less keepable hands with the Powders. They made the hands bad themselves imo by being present in my opening 7, 6, what have you, and I still stand by them being terrible top decks. I am happy to have Smokestack eat my redundant Trinispheres or Chalices etc, which actually help support my lock mechanisms themselves, or my lands if I have a Metalworker in play. 26 lands vs. 24 has given me more consistent broken Mox Diamond openers, and made me feel perfectly okay without a 3 cost mana rock (especially when a significant amount of game losses can come down to getting stuck on 2 mana, in which case I can't cast the mana rock anyway). That's been my experience. I'm not saying I know the Powders are bad, I just don't like them and I experienced them making the deck weaker and less consistent in my games personally. As a final remark I am against the amount of information it gives my opponent, in terms of my card choices and what lock pieces / combo pieces have been removed before the game begins.

    My strategy with this deck has been hope for the amazing turn one play, and count on and/or setup the amazing turn two play. Of course I would love to start every game with Chalice or Trinisphere turn 1, but that is not how the deck consistently performs with or without powders (I think the ratio is about 50-50 in terms of turn 1 to turn 2 "hard" lock piece starts imo with my list tweaks, I'd be curious to find out how much higher that ratio is with powders). So I decided to tweak the list with that in mind, leaning on more consistent and protected turn 2's while enjoying when the deck gives me great turn 1s.

    I play at several different shops, and this configuration has been working for me. Take that for what it's worth I suppose. I am still happy to see other variants and ideas and how they perform. I'll keep your criticism in mind and try and watch how the list performs in different player environments with a close eye.

  5. #425

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanced View Post
    Of the cards you listed I have trouble thinking of metas where those cards under perform, especially Tabernacle. If you are not in a meta with aggro creature decks I would consider that outside of the norm, and Tabernacle still does work rarely against big creature decks, and as I said pitches to Diamond. I personally will not be removing it from the MD anytime soon in any meta, unless I know everyone in the room is on Dark Depths or ANT storm (Tabernacle is still perfectly fine against TES btw). Ghost Quarter can occasionally be dead but is not against Czech Pile or Delver, two of the boogie men of the format that I think are played rather consistently, and can pick off those 1-2 pesky basics in lists than run them, as well as be your alternative mana denial plan with starts where you need Spyglass on Wasteland to protect your own mana base. Darksteel is artifacts 25-26 when you lose powder from the list, I can agree that my wasteland protection argument is weak (though not irrelevant), however I couldn't find a better artifact land for the slot.

    I think perhaps my most debatable inclusion after I thought about it for a while when changing the list was the 3 maindeck Spyglass. Honestly other than Omnitell and Burn filled metas I am convinced they deserve the slot as I've been playing games, the (overall, i.e. mtgtop8) meta is ripe with targets.

    I found myself with less keepable hands with the Powders. They made the hands bad themselves imo by being present in my opening 7, 6, what have you, and I still stand by them being terrible top decks. I am happy to have Smokestack eat my redundant Trinispheres or Chalices etc, which actually help support my lock mechanisms themselves, or my lands if I have a Metalworker in play. 26 lands vs. 24 has given me more consistent broken Mox Diamond openers, and made me feel perfectly okay without a 3 cost mana rock (especially when a significant amount of game losses can come down to getting stuck on 2 mana, in which case I can't cast the mana rock anyway). That's been my experience. I'm not saying I know the Powders are bad, I just don't like them and I experienced them making the deck weaker and less consistent in my games personally. As a final remark I am against the amount of information it gives my opponent, in terms of my card choices and what lock pieces / combo pieces have been removed before the game begins.

    My strategy with this deck has been hope for the amazing turn one play, and count on and/or setup the amazing turn two play. Of course I would love to start every game with Chalice or Trinisphere turn 1, but that is not how the deck consistently performs with or without powders (I think the ratio is about 50-50 in terms of turn 1 to turn 2 "hard" lock piece starts imo with my list tweaks, I'd be curious to find out how much higher that ratio is with powders). So I decided to tweak the list with that in mind, leaning on more consistent and protected turn 2's while enjoying when the deck gives me great turn 1s.

    I play at several different shops, and this configuration has been working for me. Take that for what it's worth I suppose. I am still happy to see other variants and ideas and how they perform. I'll keep your criticism in mind and try and watch how the list performs in different player environments with a close eye.

    I play solely online and, with the Coyle list, there are very few times where I am boarding in Tabernacle (I do still think it belongs in the 75 for flexibility). I can't see a reason to play Darksteel Citadel and Gemstone Caverns is so situational that I personally wouldn't waste a slot. I don't mean to sound too harsh because, ultimately, if they work for you and you are happy, that's fine. I simply find Rishadan Port has greater utility in more match-ups than any of those lands.

    On paper, Ghost Quarter should be a good card in the format, but, in my opinion, Wasteland is one of the weakest lands in Coyle's build. Mana denial in the form of one-for-one land destruction is a very narrow line in the current format and really requires heavy support (i.e. Crucible) in order for it to win games. Yes, there are decks and hands that Turn 1 Wasteland will completely ruin. There are also a lot of spots where (without support) it can hurt you worse than your opponent (looking at DRS). There are more times, in my experience, where tapping the Wasteland for mana wins the game (eventually, of course). Ghost Quarter just seems out of place unless you are pushing this specific line in an established environment.

    Again, I wouldn't call any of those differences 'wrong', but neither would I call them 'obvious improvements'. If they work for you, great! I'm not sure they would work for me.

    The only other differences I see is your increase in Spyglass and Tangle Wire. Personally, I hate Tangle Wire in Legacy (I've posted about this multiple times). I hate it even more in the current format. Pyromancer, Mentor, and DRS decks all have ways to continue to develop through a Tangle Wire while we can struggle except for a few, very specific board states. Can it 'buy time'? Sure, I guess. I still don't like to see it in my opening hand and I am always looking for a better use of those spots. I do like upping the Spyglass count, but I haven't settled on the what the right number is - 2 or 3. I like that you can play it 'blind' on turn 1 and still hit something. It's also nice to not be so reliant on the 3cmc slot as a starting point.

    In your evaluation of the Serum Powders, how often do you mulligan without them?

  6. #426

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    I play solely online and, with the Coyle list, there are very few times where I am boarding in Tabernacle (I do still think it belongs in the 75 for flexibility). I can't see a reason to play Darksteel Citadel and Gemstone Caverns is so situational that I personally wouldn't waste a slot. I don't mean to sound too harsh because, ultimately, if they work for you and you are happy, that's fine. I simply find Rishadan Port has greater utility in more match-ups than any of those lands.

    On paper, Ghost Quarter should be a good card in the format, but, in my opinion, Wasteland is one of the weakest lands in Coyle's build. Mana denial in the form of one-for-one land destruction is a very narrow line in the current format and really requires heavy support (i.e. Crucible) in order for it to win games. Yes, there are decks and hands that Turn 1 Wasteland will completely ruin. There are also a lot of spots where (without support) it can hurt you worse than your opponent (looking at DRS). There are more times, in my experience, where tapping the Wasteland for mana wins the game (eventually, of course). Ghost Quarter just seems out of place unless you are pushing this specific line in an established environment.

    Again, I wouldn't call any of those differences 'wrong', but neither would I call them 'obvious improvements'. If they work for you, great! I'm not sure they would work for me.

    The only other differences I see is your increase in Spyglass and Tangle Wire. Personally, I hate Tangle Wire in Legacy (I've posted about this multiple times). I hate it even more in the current format. Pyromancer, Mentor, and DRS decks all have ways to continue to develop through a Tangle Wire while we can struggle except for a few, very specific board states. Can it 'buy time'? Sure, I guess. I still don't like to see it in my opening hand and I am always looking for a better use of those spots. I do like upping the Spyglass count, but I haven't settled on the what the right number is - 2 or 3. I like that you can play it 'blind' on turn 1 and still hit something. It's also nice to not be so reliant on the 3cmc slot as a starting point.

    In your evaluation of the Serum Powders, how often do you mulligan without them?
    I agree that my choice in lands are not "obvious improvements". In fact I think the two darksteel and gemstone are the weakest lands, but I haven't found better replacements. I would love excess copies of Buried Ruin or Inventor's Fair, hopefully they'll print something similar soon. I don't favor Port with this deck, and I prefer 26 lands while keeping a 36-24 ratio of artifacts to non-artifacts, so those were the best I could find currently. I've been considering Gemstone as Mox number 5 on the draw, but I would rather have a more useful utility land if I could find one, and don't feel that I need Quarter number 7 (though perhaps with my list that would be correct, or perhaps a Karakas? I'm not sure if this deck needs that effect either).

    I do lean heavily to crucible lock. I win quite frequently that way, I very rarely use for-value wastelands (spyglass openers sometimes give me the information to take those lines). It also meshes with tabernacle, in that the pesky creatures end up going along with the lands. I can appreciate if the crucible line is not your usual bread and butter. The upped Tangle Wire count is sort of my Port replacement in certain matches, and sort of my weaker Bridges 5-7 others. I'm happy with the 3 maindeck copies, though I often side them out (usually against Deathrite decks as you've mentioned and non-creature combo since they only often need one land anyway), and I'm lukewarm on my 4th copy in the sideboard. I'd really prefer it to be a 5th bridge if that were possible.

    For the Powders, I tried Coyle's exact land count without them, and mulliganed far too often due to dead diamonds in hand. Upping to 26 lands I mulligan very little imo, maybe 1 out 3-5 hands, and tend to be happy with my 6 afterwards when I do. I don't go below 25 lands after sideboard in this same vein of thought (removing the Tabernacle).

  7. #427

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanced View Post
    I agree that my choice in lands are not "obvious improvements". In fact I think the two darksteel and gemstone are the weakest lands, but I haven't found better replacements. I would love excess copies of Buried Ruin or Inventor's Fair, hopefully they'll print something similar soon. I don't favor Port with this deck, and I prefer 26 lands while keeping a 36-24 ratio of artifacts to non-artifacts, so those were the best I could find currently. I've been considering Gemstone as Mox number 5 on the draw, but I would rather have a more useful utility land if I could find one, and don't feel that I need Quarter number 7 (though perhaps with my list that would be correct, or perhaps a Karakas? I'm not sure if this deck needs that effect either).

    I do lean heavily to crucible lock. I win quite frequently that way, I very rarely use for-value wastelands (spyglass openers sometimes give me the information to take those lines). It also meshes with tabernacle, in that the pesky creatures end up going along with the lands. I can appreciate if the crucible line is not your usual bread and butter. The upped Tangle Wire count is sort of my Port replacement in certain matches, and sort of my weaker Bridges 5-7 others. I'm happy with the 3 maindeck copies, though I often side them out (usually against Deathrite decks as you've mentioned and non-creature combo since they only often need one land anyway), and I'm lukewarm on my 4th copy in the sideboard. I'd really prefer it to be a 5th bridge if that were possible.

    For the Powders, I tried Coyle's exact land count without them, and mulliganed far too often due to dead diamonds in hand. Upping to 26 lands I mulligan very little imo, maybe 1 out 3-5 hands, and tend to be happy with my 6 afterwards when I do. I don't go below 25 lands after sideboard in this same vein of thought (removing the Tabernacle).

    Petrified Field may be a good option if you want more copies of Buried Ruin or Inventors' Fair. As a 1- or 2-of, it could have some utility beyond what you get with Darksteel and, imo, it's a definite upgrade over Caverns. While I can see your point on Caverns as an additional Mox on the draw, but it's a long shot (if you 'draw' 50%, and get Caverns ~10% of the time, you're talking about an effect you might get 1-in-20 games, on average - once in a GP event including Top 8). I prefer 25 lands and consider your list to be 25 (Tabernacle is really a spell when you don't play Urborg). Horizon Canopy is another consideration. A land that basically cycles is always a good option.

    When I go the Land Destruction route, I prefer to play Armageddon Stax. Magnus of the Tabernacle plus Armageddon can clear a board pretty quickly. As I said, with the DRS-driven meta we have today, Wasteland isn't nearly as effective as it once was. You can still get and win with a Wastelock, it just isn't a reliable set-up. Have you considered Forcefield as an 'additional' Bridge. There are probably a couple of other options that I've tried through the years, just can't think of them off the top of my head. I'll look through notes later tonight.

    How often are you mulliganing due to hand quality - not just mana issues? 25 lands is about right for land/mox mulligans.

    Question to you and the Group - What do you do with this hand on the draw? Does your answer change on the play?

    Inventors' Fair, Buried Ruin, Wasteland, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack.

  8. #428

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    Petrified Field may be a good option if you want more copies of Buried Ruin or Inventors' Fair. As a 1- or 2-of, it could have some utility beyond what you get with Darksteel and, imo, it's a definite upgrade over Caverns. While I can see your point on Caverns as an additional Mox on the draw, but it's a long shot (if you 'draw' 50%, and get Caverns ~10% of the time, you're talking about an effect you might get 1-in-20 games, on average - once in a GP event including Top 8). I prefer 25 lands and consider your list to be 25 (Tabernacle is really a spell when you don't play Urborg). Horizon Canopy is another consideration. A land that basically cycles is always a good option.

    When I go the Land Destruction route, I prefer to play Armageddon Stax. Magnus of the Tabernacle plus Armageddon can clear a board pretty quickly. As I said, with the DRS-driven meta we have today, Wasteland isn't nearly as effective as it once was. You can still get and win with a Wastelock, it just isn't a reliable set-up. Have you considered Forcefield as an 'additional' Bridge. There are probably a couple of other options that I've tried through the years, just can't think of them off the top of my head. I'll look through notes later tonight.

    How often are you mulliganing due to hand quality - not just mana issues? 25 lands is about right for land/mox mulligans.

    Question to you and the Group - What do you do with this hand on the draw? Does your answer change on the play?

    Inventors' Fair, Buried Ruin, Wasteland, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack.

    Gemstone is actually even less likely to be used than that 5% too, because when it's in a hand with mox diamonds I am probably going to prefer to have a diamond on the field and pitch the land, rather than remove a card to have the extra land drop. I'm going to take it out, I'll consider Petrified Field. I'm thinking maybe a third darksteel too for testing, I've enjoyed the earlier inventor's fair triggers and more reliable Metalworker shenanigans.

    My preference toward the 3 MB Spyglass and the 4th in the board is my answer to the Deathrite problem in regards to Crucible. Perhaps they'll ban the little guy some day and solve the problem completely, but this has been working for me.

    I'll also consider Forcefield. I'm not excited about the mana sink aspect, or that I can't go hellbent against 1 power, but it's worth considering.

    Hand quality and your follow up question are related I think. I think I've been keeping some hands that are too slow in certain matches where I really only need one quality lock piece quickly and shouldve mulled (although I had a Belcher player pick off one game on me through a Trinisphere on the field that he never removed, felt bad), I'm going to work on that. Poor quality hands are usually all metalworker or triple Stax without appropriate acceleration or something similar. I think those are probably 1 out of 4 mulligans or so, usually mulligans are due to not enough land / acceleration or flooding.

    So far that example hand is about the slowest quality hand I have kept in matchups. My experience when keeping that hand is that it will often create a grindy game where my opponent often ends up one turn ahead of me when playing against Delver / Control (such as losing my last point of life before being able to staff combo the following turn), and that it is probably an immediate loss against combo. Wasteland lock decks could also be a problem if they get online before crucible. There have been exceptions where I have top decked the tomb or diamond off the top immediately and then that hand becomes nuts, but with less than 25% odds of that happening it isn't the norm.

    I wouldn't keep it draw or play unless I had specific knowledge about my opponent that encouraged me to (such as if I expected the card disadvantage to kill me in the match, in which case I probably still mull on the draw). I don't see much difference between the two, as in both cases I'm hoping for mana acceleration off the next draw to make the hand work on tempo. I'm leaning towards only keeping hands without sol lands or diamonds if they have a chalice or spyglass (or ratchet bomb etc after sideboard).

  9. #429
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    beardstorm's Avatar
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    Mar 2017
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Hello friends.
    Me and a couple of friends designed this piece of art for shits and giggles and played it at two local events before realising it's trash.
    Both events yielded 1-3 results, but it was nice to see the look on people's faces when they realised they were losing to Sundial of the Infinite.

    We called it "Winless Stax".

    Artifact (23)
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Smokestack
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Sundial of the Infinite

    Enchantment (7)
    4 Ghostly Prison
    3 Humility

    Sorcery (3)
    3 Armageddon

    Land (27)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Wasteland
    3 Flagstones of Trokair
    2 Ghost Quarter
    1 Buried Ruin
    1 Inventors' Fair
    1 Karakas
    1 Mistveil Plains
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    5 Plains

    Sideboard
    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Banishing Light
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Sun Droplet
    1 Caltrops
    1 Jester's Cap
    1 Uba Mask
    1 Orbs of Warding
    Last edited by beardstorm; 01-05-2018 at 01:29 AM.

  10. #430

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post

    Question to you and the Group - What do you do with this hand on the draw? Does your answer change on the play?

    Inventors' Fair, Buried Ruin, Wasteland, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Crucible of Worlds, Smokestack.
    I've been testing more and have gone back to Ports in the list due to this type of hand, where I think one Port instead of any one of these example lands can make the hand keepable in many matchups. I still prefer Ghost Quarters in the late game, but I think it's more important to be able to keep hands and have a turn 2 play, even if it is only to tap one of their lands. With my list 3 Ports give the deck seven 2 cmc plays, plus an additional 3 "pseudo" cmc 2 plays with the Ports. Here's my newest iteration of the list:

    MD:
    4 - Metalworker
    4 - Trinisphere
    4 - Chalice of the Void
    4 - Smokestack
    4 - Crucible of Worlds
    4 - Ensnaring Bridge
    4 - Mox Diamond
    3 - Sorcerous Spyglass
    3 - Tangle Wire
    1 - Staff of Domination

    4 - Inventor's Fair
    4 - Wasteland
    4 - Buried Ruin
    4 - Ancient Tomb
    4 - City of Traitors
    3 - Rishadan Port
    2 - Darksteel Citadel

    SB:
    2 - Lodestone Golem
    2 - Thorm of Amythest
    3 - Ratchet Bomb
    1 - Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    3 - Tormod's Crypt
    1 - Walking Ballista
    2 - Staff of Domination
    1 - Sorcerous Spyglass

    Spyglass has still been MVP against the field. I've gone back to Tabernacle in the side, it has felt lackluster in repeat matches I've faced like Miracles and Czech, which I think are tough for this list to beat (I still think it's okay in the MD in the current meta overall and miss it against Delver, but wanted room for other pieces). The 2 of Darksteel Citadel has been surprisingly good for me, it works with the 3 MD Spyglass to help ensure against losses to opponent's wastelands (Mox + Darksteel on board feels pretty strong against the wasteland field), enables earlier life gain with Inventor's Fair, and keeps the artifact count high in the deck to help with Metalworker. I also got to keep one on the field after an opponent's From the Ashes which was nice.

    I'm not totally clear on how to board against Delver anymore. The Tangle Wires obviously come out, but I want to bring in all 3 Ratchet Bombs, the Tabernacle, and maybe the 4th Spyglass, which leaves me with another 1-2 cards to have to take out that I am unsure of. I also saw that Coyle boarded in the Ballista in his Delver matches in one of the previously posted videos, which would be a sixth card, but I don't know how I feel about that card against delver.

  11. #431

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanced View Post
    I've been testing more and have gone back to Ports in the list due to this type of hand, where I think one Port instead of any one of these example lands can make the hand keepable in many matchups. I still prefer Ghost Quarters in the late game, but I think it's more important to be able to keep hands and have a turn 2 play, even if it is only to tap one of their lands. With my list 3 Ports give the deck seven 2 cmc plays, plus an additional 3 "pseudo" cmc 2 plays with the Ports. Here's my newest iteration of the list:

    MD:
    4 - Metalworker
    4 - Trinisphere
    4 - Chalice of the Void
    4 - Smokestack
    4 - Crucible of Worlds
    4 - Ensnaring Bridge
    4 - Mox Diamond
    3 - Sorcerous Spyglass
    3 - Tangle Wire
    1 - Staff of Domination

    4 - Inventor's Fair
    4 - Wasteland
    4 - Buried Ruin
    4 - Ancient Tomb
    4 - City of Traitors
    3 - Rishadan Port
    2 - Darksteel Citadel

    SB:
    2 - Lodestone Golem
    2 - Thorm of Amythest
    3 - Ratchet Bomb
    1 - Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    3 - Tormod's Crypt
    1 - Walking Ballista
    2 - Staff of Domination
    1 - Sorcerous Spyglass

    Spyglass has still been MVP against the field. I've gone back to Tabernacle in the side, it has felt lackluster in repeat matches I've faced like Miracles and Czech, which I think are tough for this list to beat (I still think it's okay in the MD in the current meta overall and miss it against Delver, but wanted room for other pieces). The 2 of Darksteel Citadel has been surprisingly good for me, it works with the 3 MD Spyglass to help ensure against losses to opponent's wastelands (Mox + Darksteel on board feels pretty strong against the wasteland field), enables earlier life gain with Inventor's Fair, and keeps the artifact count high in the deck to help with Metalworker. I also got to keep one on the field after an opponent's From the Ashes which was nice.

    I'm not totally clear on how to board against Delver anymore. The Tangle Wires obviously come out, but I want to bring in all 3 Ratchet Bombs, the Tabernacle, and maybe the 4th Spyglass, which leaves me with another 1-2 cards to have to take out that I am unsure of. I also saw that Coyle boarded in the Ballista in his Delver matches in one of the previously posted videos, which would be a sixth card, but I don't know how I feel about that card against delver.
    Overall, I like the list. I'm not as convinced about Spyglass maindeck, yet, and think the Wasteland argument might warrant a different deck in that environment... If it's a good idea to run 3 slots to turn 4 of our lands in basic Wastes, I think something is wrong. I tend to agree that the deck will sometimes just lose to a properly timed Wasteland, but I'm not sure we need that much protection against it. The hope, obviously, is to be able to use ours to an advantage. Not sure how much stock I put in the From the Ashes argument (not commonly played based on MTGGoldfish data), but Darksteel Citadel isn't horrible and there are likely a couple of flex slots in the mana base.

    Against Delver, your fear post-board is Surgical Extraction. That's what Walking Ballista is there to protect you from. Several lists play up to 3x SE and if your Metalworker gets countered and Extracted, you're done without Ballista. Have you tried something like

    + 3 Ratched Bomb
    + 1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    + 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    + 1 Walking Ballista

    - 3 Tangle Wire
    - 1 Metalworker
    - 2 Smokestack

    I think you want to use Spyglass to lock their mana and try to get to Chalice on 1 and 2 as quickly as possible (that's the dream at least). Trinisphere and Bridge are also key. Personally, I tend to play my Metalworkers more conservatively post-board and would try to get a lock in place before running one out. It also helps to protect them from Daze, Surgical Extraction which is going to stop me from comboing later. Smokestack is very slow and Ratchet Bomb is there to help out anyways. Just an idea (I can't remember how Coyle sideboarded either).

  12. #432

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    Against Delver, your fear post-board is Surgical Extraction. That's what Walking Ballista is there to protect you from. Several lists play up to 3x SE and if your Metalworker gets countered and Extracted, you're done without Ballista. Have you tried something like

    + 3 Ratched Bomb
    + 1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    + 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    + 1 Walking Ballista

    - 3 Tangle Wire
    - 1 Metalworker
    - 2 Smokestack

    I think you want to use Spyglass to lock their mana and try to get to Chalice on 1 and 2 as quickly as possible (that's the dream at least). Trinisphere and Bridge are also key. Personally, I tend to play my Metalworkers more conservatively post-board and would try to get a lock in place before running one out. It also helps to protect them from Daze, Surgical Extraction which is going to stop me from comboing later. Smokestack is very slow and Ratchet Bomb is there to help out anyways. Just an idea (I can't remember how Coyle sideboarded either).
    This all sounds right, thank you for the suggestions.

  13. #433
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanced View Post
    I agree that my choice in lands are not "obvious improvements". In fact I think the two darksteel and gemstone are the weakest lands, but I haven't found better replacements. I would love excess copies of Buried Ruin or Inventor's Fair, hopefully they'll print something similar soon. I don't favor Port with this deck, and I prefer 26 lands while keeping a 36-24 ratio of artifacts to non-artifacts, so those were the best I could find currently. I've been considering Gemstone as Mox number 5 on the draw, but I would rather have a more useful utility land if I could find one, and don't feel that I need Quarter number 7 (though perhaps with my list that would be correct, or perhaps a Karakas? I'm not sure if this deck needs that effect either).
    Just some ideas - Mishra's Factory could be occasionally useful, Crystal Vein could accelerate out a lock piece, and Petrified field can re-buy a wasteland, Buried Ruin, or Inventor's fair. (as someone already mentioned)

    Also, Hi everyone, I used to play some Armageddon Stax, and I'm thinking of building my way back into some variety, so I'm lurking around. What are Stax's toughest match-ups currently?
    Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

  14. #434
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    I have always found it to be Delver. A deck that can land early pressure and answer things you cast to answer it. Because a lot of our answers take time to set up, a 3/2 with Flying can be a royal pain. The other one I hate seeing is Lands. You need to get a Chalice on 2 ASAP or your not in that game.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  15. #435

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by ntropy View Post
    Also, Hi everyone, I used to play some Armageddon Stax, and I'm thinking of building my way back into some variety, so I'm lurking around. What are Stax's toughest match-ups currently?
    In the metalworker version (can't speak for the other versions) I find Nic-Fit to be unwinable, Jund/Aggro Loam is also generally very difficult to win. Elves can be a pain if you're not prepared. Dragon Stompy is a hard matchup as well; Fiery Confluence is obviously insane vs Stax, and while spyglass helps a lot we don't usually put a lot of pressure on planeswalkers.

    The inclusion of Bridge makes lands significantly better than it used to be (bridge in general is pretty good right now), though you're pretty reliant on Mox Diamond and crucible to not get wasted out of the game. Delver gets a lot better if you have Ballistae/Bombs/Tabernacle. Also the Worker/Staff combo behind a trinisphere can steal a good number of games thanks to the 4x Inventors' Fair finding it.

    Fair blue decks are generally good; Kommand is annoying, though there are usually too many must-kill artifacts for it to be enough.
    Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.

  16. #436

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    I had a 3-1 finish at my local with another iteration of the list:

    4 - Metalworker
    4 - Mox Diamond
    4 - Crucible of Worlds
    4 - Ensnaring Bridge
    4 - Chalice of the Void
    4 - Trinisphere
    3 - Smokestack
    3 - Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 - Tangle Wire
    2 - Staff of Domination
    1 - Walking Ballista

    4 - Wasteland
    4 - Rishadan Port
    4 - Inventor's Fair
    4 - Buried Ruin
    4 - Ancient Tomb
    4 - City of Traitors
    1 - Darksteel Citadel

    SB:
    3 - Ratchet Bomb
    3 - Tormod's Crypt
    2 - Lodestone Golem
    2 - Thorn of Amythest
    1 - Smokestack
    1 - Staff of Domination
    1 - Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 - Walking Ballista
    1 - Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


    Matchups were Miracles (2-1), Burn (2-0), Grixis Delver (2-0) (Fred_Bear's sb strategy worked for me), and UB Tezzerator (1-2). The list felt very good. I've added the single copy of Ballista to the main mostly as an out to hatebears after testing against DnT (g1 Prelate on 3 was unbeatable for me without it) but I also appreciate the ability to end the game on the spot without having to lose match time to explain and play out interactions to unfamiliar opponents. Taking out a thalia, young pyro, or snapcaster can be relevant too.

    Tezzerator feels like a very bad matchup that I'm going to let go of, I think it might be the worst I've faced so far. The lists at my locals have maindeck Dack Faydens, and Leylines of the Void with Helm combo from the sb as well as blood moon. I think it's just too much hate in a deck that is hard to wasteland due to basics and Dimir Signets and they have FoW as an answer to quick MW combo lines, and many of our lock pieces just don't effect them.

  17. #437

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Hello people. I build this deck. Any ideas ?

    Creatures (7)

    3x Knight of the Reliquary
    4x Magus of the Tabernacle

    Sorceries (4)

    4x Armageddon

    Artifacts (18)

    4x Chalice of the Void
    3x Crucible of Worlds
    4x Mox Diamond
    3x Smokestack
    4x Trinisphere

    Enchantments (6)

    4x Ghostly Prison
    2x Sylvan Library

    Land (25)

    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x City of Traitors
    3x Flagstones of Trokair
    1x Horizon Canopy
    3x Mishra's Factory
    4x Plains
    2x Savannah
    1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    3x Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)

    2x Disenchant
    1x Maze of Ith
    1x Karakas
    2x Defense Grid
    2x Sorcerous Spyglass
    2x Grafdigger's Cage
    3x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Choke

  18. #438

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by NickDoom View Post
    Hello people. I build this deck. Any ideas ?

    Creatures (7)

    3x Knight of the Reliquary
    4x Magus of the Tabernacle

    Sorceries (4)

    4x Armageddon

    Artifacts (18)

    4x Chalice of the Void
    3x Crucible of Worlds
    4x Mox Diamond
    3x Smokestack
    4x Trinisphere

    Enchantments (6)

    4x Ghostly Prison
    2x Sylvan Library

    Land (25)

    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x City of Traitors
    3x Flagstones of Trokair
    1x Horizon Canopy
    3x Mishra's Factory
    4x Plains
    2x Savannah
    1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    3x Wasteland

    Sideboard (15)

    2x Disenchant
    1x Maze of Ith
    1x Karakas
    2x Defense Grid
    2x Sorcerous Spyglass
    2x Grafdigger's Cage
    3x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Choke
    First thought: Knight is going to rot in hand a lot. However, some GSZ with a ramunap and maybe scooze to boot (plus friends post-board) alleviates this issue quite a bit.
    Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.

  19. #439

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Barachai View Post
    First thought: Knight is going to rot in hand a lot. However, some GSZ with a ramunap and maybe scooze to boot (plus friends post-board) alleviates this issue quite a bit.
    Or maybe play White Stax with Inventor's Fair and Baneslayer Angel

  20. #440

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by NickDoom View Post
    Or maybe play White Stax with Inventor's Fair and Baneslayer Angel
    Well then you're just exploring old ground; was tinkering a bit, ended up with this, seems like fun.

    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Ramunap Excavator
    1 Qasali Pridemage
    4 Knight of the Reliquary

    4 Green sun’s Zenith
    3 Armageddon
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Ghostly Prison

    3 Smokestacks
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Mox Diamond

    1 Dryad Arbor
    3 Windswept Heath
    4 Savannah
    1 Forest
    3 Plains
    1 Karakas
    2 Flagstones of trokair
    1 Horizon Canopy
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    4 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb

    SB
    1 Tireless Tracker
    1 Reclamation Sage
    1 Gaddock Teeg
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
    1 Maze of ith
    1 Bojuka Bog
    2 Crop Rotation
    2 Disenchant
    2 Swords to Plowshares
    2 containment Priest
    1 Garruk Relentless
    Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.

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