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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Stax

  1. #441

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Im gonna copypaste from the MUD topic, the list is in fact a pure staxx:

    I built a karn list, 0 tests so far because it's playing with dominaria, but it looks promising


    // 60 Maindeck
    // 31 Artifact
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Smokestack
    1 Trading Post
    3 Trinisphere
    3 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Meekstone
    1 Bottled Cloister

    // 25 Land
    4 Wasteland
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Inventors' Fair
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Buried Ruin
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    3 Mishra's Factory
    1 Dunes of the Dead
    4 Rishadan Port

    // 4 Planeswalker
    4 Karn, Scion of Urza


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 12 Artifact
    SB: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    SB: 2 Caltrops
    SB: 1 Cursed Totem
    SB: 2 Uba Mask
    SB: 2 Welding Jar
    SB: 1 Meekstone
    SB: 3 Silent Gravestone

    // 3 Creature
    SB: 3 Lodestone Golem



    Not sure on those 1 drops, but i think is fine to play meekstone, i like the idea to have a cheap anti delver card, but its also true that meekstone is blank against pyromancer, i am currently testing ports over quarters, but I'm ready to switch back to them anytime.
    Feel free to give any imput on the list.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  2. #442

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Ciao!
    Crucible + karn's +1 ability + 25 lands makes it look like you'll end up having a lot of excess lands stuck in your hand, which isn't bad per se but it can limit the effectiveness of Ensnaring Bridge, which is this deck's MVP. I think 4 crucible and 4 karn might be too much as having 2 in your starting hand is not really good. And 1 Bottled Cloister looks also weird, due to incredible sinergy with bridge.
    But other than that, i get the general idea that the new Karn is gonna give artifact-based decks a decent boost.

  3. #443

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Cave View Post
    Ciao!
    Crucible + karn's +1 ability + 25 lands makes it look like you'll end up having a lot of excess lands stuck in your hand, which isn't bad per se but it can limit the effectiveness of Ensnaring Bridge, which is this deck's MVP. I think 4 crucible and 4 karn might be too much as having 2 in your starting hand is not really good. And 1 Bottled Cloister looks also weird, due to incredible sinergy with bridge.
    But other than that, i get the general idea that the new Karn is gonna give artifact-based decks a decent boost.
    I love Cloister, I used to play 3 and it's fair to suggest to play more of them, im just a bit afraid to get blown out by a KCommand, also, trading post is kinda effective at reducing our hand size and we can just play extra lands instead of recurring with crucible if needed.
    In general having a decent hand size for delver is easy, making bridge work against 1/1s is in fact pretty hard with this configuration.
    Also, id like to play extra cloisters because with Karn we could consider to run up to 8 pure CA cards, which would probably be a massive boost in terms of consistency.


    Keep in ming tho that Karn is not likely to boost our hand size if we dont want to, generate tokens is good if we need board presence to stall, and if we go for a reveal 2, then for the silver token card we are likely to get only 1 extra land every 2 turns, which is not that bad.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  4. #444
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Expedition Map would be good in here to tutor for Tabernacle etc.
    I think it can work alongside Chalice, I'm playing both in Modern UR Prison as well.

    For the sideboard, I REALLY like Witchbane Orb. It stops Hurkyl's Recall from Storm and is pretty good vs Burn.

    It's possible that you want 1-2 Welding Jar maindeck in this meta, just to empty your hand and protect from stuff like K Command.

  5. #445

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexeezay View Post
    Expedition Map would be good in here to tutor for Tabernacle etc.
    I think it can work alongside Chalice, I'm playing both in Modern UR Prison as well.

    For the sideboard, I REALLY like Witchbane Orb. It stops Hurkyl's Recall from Storm and is pretty good vs Burn.

    It's possible that you want 1-2 Welding Jar maindeck in this meta, just to empty your hand and protect from stuff like K Command.
    I tried to run Maps and more tool lands in the past, had little success with it, not even considering the nonbo with cotv, map just felt like skipping a turn and was useful pretty much only to fetch tebernacle, because then the back swing was good enought to recover from the time lost.

    Im fine with 1x tabernable by the way, is a really good card if drawn, but not good enought to consider it a core of the strategy imho, let's say that if the meta requires it I would be happier with 2 tabernacle rather than a playset of EMaps.

    The orb is pretty legit indeed, im not considering it anymore because now we got spyglass, my main concern was a jace/lili ultimatum se could not prevent, now with a playable needle and a somewhat interesting race with karn tokens i think we can avoid a leyline effect.
    Also, we are likely to lose to burn anyway unless we setup a strong lock, if we get to that point, i found trading post to be good enough to keep us alive and win the game by just spamming +4 life each turn.
    Also, if we want to play an orb effect Id go for [card]Orbs of Warding[/card] because it doubles as a good way to deal with pyromancer and empty.


    Welding Jar is a delicate topic, I like the idea to play a strong lock piece and then being able to protect it for free, but it's kinda hard to make room for them, I even tried to play a full set in the board, but it was pretty much impossible to board correctly because I had to board them in + board actual relevant card without boarding out our core pieces
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  6. #446

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Im gonna copypaste from the MUD topic, the list is in fact a pure staxx:

    I built a karn list, 0 tests so far because it's playing with dominaria, but it looks promising


    // 60 Maindeck
    // 31 Artifact
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Smokestack
    1 Trading Post
    3 Trinisphere
    3 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Meekstone
    1 Bottled Cloister

    // 25 Land
    4 Wasteland
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Inventors' Fair
    1 Ghost Quarter
    1 Buried Ruin
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    3 Mishra's Factory
    1 Dunes of the Dead
    4 Rishadan Port

    // 4 Planeswalker
    4 Karn, Scion of Urza


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 12 Artifact
    SB: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    SB: 2 Caltrops
    SB: 1 Cursed Totem
    SB: 2 Uba Mask
    SB: 2 Welding Jar
    SB: 1 Meekstone
    SB: 3 Silent Gravestone

    // 3 Creature
    SB: 3 Lodestone Golem



    Not sure on those 1 drops, but i think is fine to play meekstone, i like the idea to have a cheap anti delver card, but its also true that meekstone is blank against pyromancer, i am currently testing ports over quarters, but I'm ready to switch back to them anytime.
    Feel free to give any imput on the list.
    A couple of quick notes:

    I'm excited to try Karn as well. Still not sure exactly how he might slot into a Stax build, but would certainly agree that he looks interesting. Card selection has long been an issue for us and he seems to help alleviate some of that.

    Specific to your build, though, before I make a lot of brash statements about unplayable cards, can you explain your fringe choices? Why Meekstone? What are you trying to accomplish with your sideboard? What is your strategy against Lands/Delver/Czech Pile/DnT or other common match-ups? What do you envision as your best/worst match-up?

    What does this improve from previous builds? Does it solve a problem match-up?

    I'm just not sold on jamming a bunch of 'stax' cards together and calling it a deck. Looking forward to a little more explanation.

  7. #447

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    A couple of quick notes:

    I'm excited to try Karn as well. Still not sure exactly how he might slot into a Stax build, but would certainly agree that he looks interesting. Card selection has long been an issue for us and he seems to help alleviate some of that.

    Specific to your build, though, before I make a lot of brash statements about unplayable cards, can you explain your fringe choices? Why Meekstone? What are you trying to accomplish with your sideboard? What is your strategy against Lands/Delver/Czech Pile/DnT or other common match-ups? What do you envision as your best/worst match-up?

    What does this improve from previous builds? Does it solve a problem match-up?

    I'm just not sold on jamming a bunch of 'stax' cards together and calling it a deck. Looking forward to a little more explanation.
    Firstly, I have updated the list quite a bit after intensive testing, this is where we are




    In my experience, delver is quite hard to deal with, despite not being that good against grixis, meekstone is super good against team america and eldrazi (small), also quite impactiful against taxes/maverik
    Also, against delver you REALLY need something cheap to stop the bleeding, daze/pierce/wasteland is a nightmare if you rely too much on heavy drops


    Its also kinda hard to have 8 sb slots against chalice.decks, with this configuration those MU are reasonably covered.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  8. #448

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Firstly, I have updated the list quite a bit after intensive testing, this is where we are




    In my experience, delver is quite hard to deal with, despite not being that good against grixis, meekstone is super good against team america and eldrazi (small), also quite impactiful against taxes/maverik
    Also, against delver you REALLY need something cheap to stop the bleeding, daze/pierce/wasteland is a nightmare if you rely too much on heavy drops


    Its also kinda hard to have 8 sb slots against chalice.decks, with this configuration those MU are reasonably covered.
    Null brooch very nice card.. Top!!!

    Ivan search me on mtg (mtgcaprino my nick name) and I test vs you (I play big eldrazi)

  9. #449
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Thanks for sharing this, Noctalor.

    Thoughts on 1-of Ghirapur Orrery? Works well with Wasteland/Ghost Quarter and the draw ability could really work in the decks' favor.

  10. #450

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexeezay View Post
    Thanks for sharing this, Noctalor.

    Thoughts on 1-of Ghirapur Orrery? Works well with Wasteland/Ghost Quarter and the draw ability could really work in the decks' favor.
    I played Orrery and i like the card quite a lot, in theory, exploration is all we need to lock the game completely.

    Still, in this list im trying not to play as many heavy drops, the only 4 drops are smokestack and CA engines, trading post is an exception but it is too good to pass (mostly, being able to recover 4 is truly helpful).
    Playing orrery is quite legit, I used to and probably I will switch it in and out from time to time, right now, i think we dont need to go in turbo wasteland mode as most decks are already not able to recover from waste + crucible, and orrery is usually a win more card that's not really able to win us a game on it's own, which is quite bad for a 4 drop if you aim to beat delver.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  11. #451

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Played the deck yesterday, went 3/1, Karn is bonkers.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  12. #452

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Played the deck yesterday, went 3/1, Karn is bonkers.
    Kill with factory and construct token? 8 mandlands?

  13. #453
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Played the deck yesterday, went 3/1, Karn is bonkers.
    First off, thanks for posting this list. You've revitalized my drive to perfect this archetype in Legacy. I ran a variation of your list (-2 Meekstone +2 Forcefield in the SB) last night at my LGS and went 3-1. I was on stream round 1, which you can watch here

    R1 1-2 vs Esper Stoneblade (lost to Back to Basics both games)
    R2 2-1 vs ANT
    R3 2-1 vs Aluren
    R4 2-1 vs Miracles (lost to Back to Basics)

    As you can see from the streamed match, drawing multiple Trinispheres when I was trying to prevent my opponent from playing 3CMC cards felt pretty bad. Vindicate, TNN, and Back to Basics all showed up and didn't really care about Trinisphere. I know there's been extensive debate between Trinisphere vs Sphere of Resistance vs Lodestone Golem in this thread, but Trinispheres def felt like a liability here. My issue with Resistor is it can backfire on you vs certain decks. I think Lodestone Golem would fit very well in this list, really only making Karn more expensive to cast.

    Trading Post didn't do anything, and I'm inclined to think it's a bit cute at this point. Might warrant further testing. I also missed the 4th Smokestack, so I'll have to think of how to fit that in, later.

    Here's what I'll be trying next:

    Legacy - Stax
    Lands (25)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ghost Quarter
    2 Inventor's Fair
    4 Mishra's Factory
    3 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland

    Creatures (4)
    4 Lodestone Golem

    Artifacts (27)
    1 Bottled Cloister
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Ratchet Bomb
    3 Smokestack
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    3 Trinisphere

    Planeswalkers (4)
    4 Karn, Scion of Urza

    SB (15)
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Forcefield
    1 Null Brooch
    1 Powder Keg
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Silent Arbiter
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    2 Uba Mask
    1 Zuran Orb

    Any feedback or discussion is def welcome!

  14. #454

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Hey, glad to see some movement

    Tradind Post is pretty good imho, I felt the need to have a gainlife effect in a lot of games, mostly against delver.

    4rth Smokestack is of course welcome, my problem is that stack is actually pretty bad against pyromancer, and too slow against combo, so in my opinion we have reasons to play only 3 copies.

    I am super duper against sphere of resistance in this deck, we have quite a bad time playing under our own sphere, trini is pretty good but 4 copies may be too many, I am running the full set just to improve my odds to get one online asap, running 3, or event 2 is still a legit choice, i would still run some copies because trini plus denial is a good plan against most of the current meta.
    Of course you coard out most (if not all) of the trini against any deck running a 2/3 curve.



    For the 8 manland topic, its quite good to run the fullset of mutavault, but we can't really afford to play them currently, at best, we can cut 3x port for 3 manlands, but all of the other lands are much better than mutavault, and port felt quite good to me aswell.


    Ill'gladly see the streaming later, thanks!


    EDIT (as i watch your games)

    Game 1 you had "true" lock, the turn you play crucible the correct play is to sac tomb sac bridge, tick smoke to 3 (oppo can't play spells), cast crubicle, oppo sacs full board against a trini, a crubible and a stack, in our turn we sac stack and 2x land, keeping trini, crucible and a land, quarter + waste recursion in this scenario is 99% game, and we also have a factory up.
    Sacrifice trini is a mistake imho because even if you get your opponent to 0, or close to 0 permanents he is still able to fire fows and cantrips, and the stack lock becomes much less important
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  15. #455
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Hey, glad to see some movement
    Game 1 you had "true" lock, the turn you play crucible the correct play is to sac tomb sac bridge, tick smoke to 3 (oppo can't play spells), cast crubicle, oppo sacs full board against a trini, a crubible and a stack, in our turn we sac stack and 2x land, keeping trini, crucible and a land, quarter + waste recursion in this scenario is 99% game, and we also have a factory up.
    Sacrifice trini is a mistake imho because even if you get your opponent to 0, or close to 0 permanents he is still able to fire fows and cantrips, and the stack lock becomes much less important
    Good points for sure. I'll keep testing Trading Post and not give up on it too quickly. I think 3 Trinisphere should be a good place to start. After some thinking, I like Lodestone best in the board after they've already taken out removal against you. Also good for when you're taking out Trinispheres vs decks with a curve of 2-3 mana. There are a lot of 3 and 4 CMC spells that spell trouble for us and I like lining Lodestone up with those by making them harder to cast.

    This is what I'll try tonight. I'll report back, after.

    Legacy - Stax
    Lands (26)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ghost Quarter
    2 Inventor's Fair
    4 Mishra's Factory
    3 Rishadan Port
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    4 Wasteland

    Artifacts (30)
    1 Bottled Cloister
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Ratchet Bomb
    4 Smokestack
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Trading Post
    3 Trinisphere

    Planeswalkers (4)
    4 Karn, Scion of Urza

    SB (15)
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Forcefield
    4 Lodestone Golem
    1 Powder Keg
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Silent Arbiter
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Zuran Orb

  16. #456
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    I am surprised to see Buried Ruin totally cut. That card is another form of card selection that is very very handy. Granted I am still playing Metalworker builds so that may lean into my affection for it.
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  17. #457

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I am surprised to see Buried Ruin totally cut. That card is another form of card selection that is very very handy. Granted I am still playing Metalworker builds so that may lean into my affection for it.
    buried ruin is generally good, totally playable, but blank in the early game.
    Given that I want to run 8x strip the only lands that can be switched are ports, which offer some kind of early play, still, there is no doubt buried ruins could be played in those slots.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScheisseSoze View Post
    Good points for sure. I'll keep testing Trading Post and not give up on it too quickly. I think 3 Trinisphere should be a good place to start. After some thinking, I like Lodestone best in the board after they've already taken out removal against you. Also good for when you're taking out Trinispheres vs decks with a curve of 2-3 mana. There are a lot of 3 and 4 CMC spells that spell trouble for us and I like lining Lodestone up with those by making them harder to cast.

    This is what I'll try tonight. I'll report back, after.

    Legacy - Stax
    The list looks pretty solid, good luck
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  18. #458
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quick tournament report last night with the most recent list above:

    R1 2-1 vs Death & Taxes
    R2 2-1 vs UR Delver
    R3 0-2 vs Death & Taxes
    R4 0-2 vs Grixis Delver

    Observations from Round 3 - He had Revoker for my Ratchet Bomb both games, which would have otherwise been backbreaking for him. There was a moment game 2 that I could have reset the board with Smokestack, but opted to try and hang in there. It didn't pan out and I died. Also of note, Thalia, Heretic Cathar is extremely annoying for us. Revoker is definitely a problem though.

    Round 4, opponent mulls to 5 and is on the play. He Spell Pierces my turn 1 Trinisphere, plays a Deathrite Shaman, and cantrips for a few turns while Dazing my spells until he lands a Gurmag Angler, and I die. Game 2 I play a turn 1 Trinisphere off a Mox and Ancient Tomb, which sticks! Then he Wastelands me, and I don't draw another mana producing land for 12 turns and I die.

    Before the tournament, I went 5-0 in games across two different Dredge players (they can't beat Bridge), and went 3-4 in games vs Eldrazi Aggro after the tournament. The Eldrazi games were almost all non-games where we just ignored each other as much as possible.

    This deck mulls a LOT. Looking back to Michael Coyle's lists with Serum Powder, I wonder if those are just necessary for this deck. Also I'd like to potentially work in some way to kill creatures like DRS and Revoker. Ballista seems fine, but I'd like something else. Further testing leads me to believe Forcefield doesn't deserve 2 slots, but is still good vs the right decks (it was great vs Eldrazi). Consistency seems to be the biggest issue with the deck, though, overall.

  19. #459

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Thinking of testing this vs 4C Pile this coming Friday:

    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    3 Inventors' Fair
    3 Buried Ruin
    1 Dunes of the Dead
    1 Mishra's Factory
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Serum Powder

    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Smokestacks
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    2 Tangle Wire

    3 Karn, Scion of Urza
    3 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Sundial of the Infinite

    SB:
    2 Maze of Ith
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    3 Ratchet Bomb
    3 Thought-Knot Seer
    2 Batterskull
    2 Etched Champion
    1 Phyrexian Metamorph

    The Champions and Metamorph in the board are experimental, hope is that the champions will give the needed edge vs Pile while also being a brick wall against other decks (not entirely sure how metamorph will do but I want to find out). The mainboard Sundial has done a surprisingly large amount of work, was on two before karn. Reanimator has been nonexistent at my LGS for a while, if it shows up hopefully chalice/bridge/maze will do the trick.

    Any thoughts or suggestions?
    Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.

  20. #460
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    I am going to play this pile of shit tonight:

    2 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
    2 Courser of Kruphix
    1 Eternal Witness
    2 Hornet Nest
    4 Ramunap Excavator
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    4 Tireless Tracker
    1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

    4 Green Sun's Zenith
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Smokestack
    3 Trinisphere

    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    1 Dryad Arbor
    8 Forest
    3 Ghost Quarter
    3 Hickory Woodlot
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard:
    2 Beast within
    1 Krosan Grip
    2 Sylvan Library
    1 Scooze
    2 Rec Sage
    1 Centaur Vinecrasher (I want Swagtusk here, but I need something big with Trample to deal with TNN)
    3 Choke
    3 Null Rod
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