No, its not. There are decks where the win condition is looping a card from your grave to the top of your Library and letting them draw out. Hell there is one in Standard right now. The point of magic is to do what your planing, but it is not always to win. There are a lot of times the point it not to lose. Hell thats normally the mantra of any control deck. If you can control the game you can win with a Factory and nothing else.Originally Posted by Fred_Bear
The point of Stax is not to win, it is to slowly remove the options the other person has while keeping yourself alive. You are not playing to win, you are playing not to lose. At all points that should be the question "How do I lose this game?" and then remove each answer you come up with one at a time until there are none left.
Do not build to win, build to live. The deck I am playing in Modern right now wins with a Crucible and a Ipnu Rivulet. Not exactly exciting gameplay but again, thats not the point.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Sorry, I thought people were here to talk about making the deck better or more competitive...
You're right though, you can play what you want...
Sure, but you are always going to hit a wall trying to prove something if all you have is an opinion and no prof.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
If that's your perspective, great. We're very different, though.
I play with the thought in mind "What are my outs in this situation" - not, "how do I lose". It's not about 'not losing', it's about finding a path to victory.
Even your deck with Crucible and Rivulet is about winning. You assemble your combo whatever path your take, however exciting it is to you - you are trying to win. A deck which lets the opponent draw out is looking to win, too.
I guess I was mistaken. I thought this was a forum on competitive magic.
Well I guess if a difference of view is all it take for you to throw a tantrum and leave... bye. Alternatively you know, you could talk about why you feel that something that we all agree works (Playing Bridge in the same deck as a card that lets you make dumb amounts of mana) is a bad idea.
Your issue is that you are walking into a prison discussion and your asking why we are not all trying to be more assertive. Maybe we are looking at things from a very different view point, maybe not.
I can't help but think these things are pulling in different directions, but sometimes they may in fact work together. Who knows though, its not like I have been trying to make that point myself.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Speaking of competitive magic, the vast majority of monobrown stax players who ever placed in a tournament, and i mean any tournament, was rocking 4x of both cards.
Metalworker wants your hand full and is a bad topdeck, but it helps vomiting your hand on the battlefield, making bridge better.
Moreover, being a bad topdeck is quite a common trait in this deck. Half of the cards are.
LOL. I guess I missed the part where I threw a tantrum... or left...
This isn't personal, so please don't make it that way. I can handle a difference of opinion, but please don't confuse opinions with data.
I was trying to convey that I don't believe Metalworker is an optimized slot in a Stax deck at this time in this meta. You say 'opinion', but there hasn't been a single Brown Stax list pop on any of the competitive lists site since the bannings. I don't know if anyone has tried, but if everyone 'agrees' that Metalworker + Bridge 'works', but nobody is winning with it, does it really 'work'? Does it make the deck more competitive? Personally, I've put up a couple of 4-1s with my list in MTGO leagues. I'm not arguing that my list is any way 'optimized' or 'competitive', but it's played better for me in the online meta than Metalworker lists (I have many mono-brown iterations since Coyle's finishes last fall) and it's primarily because Bridge >> Metalworker Combo right now. I've tried to acknowledge that there are uses for Metalworker in generating mana, but, to be honest, the best use of the mana is likely to cast creatures (MUD) or combo off (Staff). Dropping redundant lock pieces feels sub-optimal and has played that way for me. As I said, I play in leagues online and players will let you go to time when they see Metalworker beatdown is your only out. Some will concede, sure, but why make the decision theirs?
You're, of course, right - playing a large creature plus Bridge is tough which is why I look for cards which can do multiple things. Golem provides a tax that further slows my opponent and both Wurmcoil and Batterskull have lifelink (which, as you've pointed out can combat some of our weaknesses). As you well know, these games don't follow an exact cookbook, so it's important to play and discover multiple lines. I've noticed that playing these creatures with Bridge provides me multiple lines of play, which I don't feel that Metalworker did. Metalworker has always felt more 'all-in' on a narrow line. I also can't help feel that's why MUD has fallen off while Eldrazi Post has been having more success lately...
I guess this is part of my point...
Monobrown Stax hasn't really been anywhere for a while, a long while based on mtggoldfish and mtgtop8. Is it time to shift and look at what is working and what isn't? Obviously it's up to you, but I feel like I topdeck pretty well (not Jace good, but I don't feel bad seeing Golem even with a Bridge in play). I feel pretty confident even if I have to go down to 6 that I'm going to have a line worth playing.
Sorry if mine is a minority opinion or if I'm more willing to question choices or shift my decklist (to improve the deck or win more). I've been playing Stax since I started playing legacy with White Stax in 2007 (I'm the same guy who posted in the Armageddon Stax thread about testing everything). I do have some strong opinions on some cards (Tangle Wire), but it's mostly derived from long hours of playtesting important match-ups. 11 years later, I play exclusively on MTGO which means I don't get as good an interaction with my opponent and I can't always determine my playtest sequences, but I can sub in and out and test and tinker much faster than ordering and waiting (I hated making proxies). I'll continue to provide the information I can, but you can certainly feel free to ignore me... I won't feel bad at all.
Well, the thing is, making the deck more competitive has noting to do with making the deck able to "win".
The plan of the deck is simple, prevent your opponent from playing, you can achieve that either by extreme denial or lock pieces.
Making this deck stronger means find ways to execute this plan better.
Once your opponent is locked out of the game literally anything can win you the game, you are literally against an opponent which cant play any card and controlling no permanent, metalworker beatdown is enough to win in that spot.
Bridge is surely one of the best lock piece we have in our arsenal, at best it straight up wins the game and at worst its absolutely useless, still:
1) we have a pretty hard time against deck trying to rush us, bridge is the only thing that can reasonably save us from not so uncommon scenarios such as a turn 2 tarmo which hits for 5 the next turn, karn is a great addition because he is also able to slow down the pace of the game by spamming reasonably big tokens
2) we are extremely well positioned against any deck which doesnt care about bridge
3) really, we have no other plans against a decent board, and this is the biggest problem with stax, we must start strongly, or we are likely to be able to lock the opponent out, but still lose to their beatdown, bridge is the best card to prevent that.
an example could be having crucible + wasteland against canadian and still losing to a delver because we are not able to recover (mind that often delver is hitting for 5 because we must use tomb), both bridge and bomb are needed to save those games.
Also, talking about explosive starts, this is one of the main reason to run worker.
Firstly, I currently no longer run worker, because in my experience it just gets removed too often before I can activate it.
Still, the "you need a full hand argument" is really, not that well thought.
You should consider worker as a card that (if able to last a turn) is able to cast your entire hand once, and then becomes a decent dork able to ramp up some mana intensive plays such as inventors' fair or just casting your spells w/o having to use tombs.
The thing is, casting your entire hand turn 2/3 usually means that you just win the game.
Its not like we wait the right moment to cast our spells, we would dump our hand turn 2 all the times if possible, most of our cards work best if resolved early, and lose a ton of potential if not.
Considering the "bad side" of a post activation of worker really means little, is having 10 free mana and being able to cast your entire hand is not enough for you to win,you would have lost anyway.
The only reason not to run 4 bridges is bacause you are absolutely sure that you never play against creature decks, which is quite unlikely.
The only reason not to run 4 workers is because you are afraid they are going to get removed too often, and you prefer to not be soft to removals.
Also, worker is actually amazing with bridge, because you often lose by not being able to dump your hand fast enough.
Really, consider this card
Trashcan Ritual
Suspend 1
add
Would you run it?
If not, why not?
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
Well, the thing is, making the deck more competitive has noting to do with making the deck able to "win".
The plan of the deck is simple, prevent your opponent from playing, you can achieve that either by extreme denial or lock pieces.
Making this deck stronger means find ways to execute this plan better.
Once your opponent is locked out of the game literally anything can win you the game, you are literally against an opponent which cant play any card and controlling no permanent, metalworker beatdown is enough to win in that spot.
Bridge is surely one of the best lock piece we have in our arsenal, at best it straight up wins the game and at worst its absolutely useless, still:
1) we have a pretty hard time against deck trying to rush us, bridge is the only thing that can reasonably save us from not so uncommon scenarios such as a turn 2 tarmo which hits for 5 the next turn, karn is a great addition because he is also able to slow down the pace of the game by spamming reasonably big tokens
2) we are extremely well positioned against any deck which doesnt care about bridge
3) really, we have no other plans against a decent board, and this is the biggest problem with stax, we must start strongly, or we are likely to be able to lock the opponent out, but still lose to their beatdown, bridge is the best card to prevent that.
an example could be having crucible + wasteland against canadian and still losing to a delver because we are not able to recover (mind that often delver is hitting for 5 because we must use tomb), both bridge and bomb are needed to save those games.
Also, talking about explosive starts, this is one of the main reason to run worker.
Firstly, I currently no longer run worker, because in my experience it just gets removed too often before I can activate it.
Still, the "you need a full hand argument" is really, not that well thought.
You should consider worker as a card that (if able to last a turn) is able to cast your entire hand once, and then becomes a decent dork able to ramp up some mana intensive plays such as inventors' fair or just casting your spells w/o having to use tombs.
The thing is, casting your entire hand turn 2/3 usually means that you just win the game.
Its not like we wait the right moment to cast our spells, we would dump our hand turn 2 all the times if possible, most of our cards work best if resolved early, and lose a ton of potential if not.
Considering the "bad side" of a post activation of worker really means little, is having 10 free mana and being able to cast your entire hand is not enough for you to win,you would have lost anyway.
The only reason not to run 4 bridges is bacause you are absolutely sure that you never play against creature decks, which is quite unlikely.
The only reason not to run 4 workers is because you are afraid they are going to get removed too often, and you prefer to not be soft to removals.
Also, worker is actually amazing with bridge, because you often lose by not being able to dump your hand fast enough.
Really, consider this card
Trashcan Ritual
Suspend 1
add
Would you run it?
If not, why not?
Honestly, I think what you are referring to is confirmation bias. What percentage of the time does Metalworker function 'ideally'? Your proposed card is probably closer to
Trashcan Ritual
Suspend 1
Roll a 20-sided die:
-if you roll a 1, add
-if you roll a 2, add
-if you roll a 3-4, add
-if you roll a 5-7, add
-if you roll a 8-11, add
-if you roll >12, add
That's not to say there isn't an 'expected' value where it is really pay, wait a turn, add :X: and, in my experience, the EV or :X: is probably somewhere between 2 and 3 for a Metalworker depending on how you factor in the game-state, etc. [If I factor in all the different ways to pay
As you point out, he's a lightning rod, but when he works, he's great. My experience is he doesn't work enough often enough to warrant an auto-inclusion.
Again, to each their own. I have seen builds without it that have worked and with Karn now taking space you will do what you can. Personally I feel that playing with a 4 mana tutor means I want to push my production as high as I can. Even if you are only making 2 mana off it, that's 2 damage you don't have to take off a Tomb. The card is strongest in the early turns and weakens as the game goes on. But in my mind that is not really a mark against it since the same can be said for Moxen, playing 25ish lands or drawing your 3rd Bridge when you really need something else.
Stax is not really a deck one should play and expect to break even with long term in my mind. It lacks a lot of the tools for consistency that many other decks have, trading a lot of deck space for early power plays. That can be effective (Red, Eldrazi and Thopter Stompy come to mind) but it is not a winning plan in a deck without a proactive plan. Stax is such a deck. The speed of the format, the push to faster and faster decks make life hell for us. Losing the die roll can mean losing the game. Even in Vintage where Stax is at its most powerful it has had its day in the sun. That is why its almost always the secondary deck of those of us who play it. Yes, this is a site for competitive play, but sadly Stax is not really a deck that falls in that sphere any longer.
Not that I am going to stop playing it. My view on MW is that it helps speed us up and that it sometimes kills the opp. But we are looking at a deck that has faded, so we are not really debating much more then the shade of green painted on a heritage building. Thats why I found your "there hasn't been a single Brown Stax list pop on any of the competitive lists site since the bannings." comment really amusing. There has not been a honestly competitive Stax deck in about a decade and thats unlikely to change.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
What's up folks, lurked this thread for a while and with M19 was finally able to finish putting this deck together. Took it out to weekly last night and was surprised to end up 4-0. Here's my writeup:
As a prelude, the Seattle area (and much of the PNW) is extremely smokey from forest fires, so it was a fitting night to play Smokestack.
List:
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Walking Ballista
4 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Buried Ruin
1 Mutavault
2 Inventors' Fair
Sideboard:
4 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Null Brooch
2 Zuran Orb
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Spellskite
Deck is close to a version posted here a while back after Karn was spoiled. Some thoughts on card choices:
0 Trinisphere: Probably the most contentious decision as Stax is kind of THE trinisphere deck. Yes 3ball is a hard lock with Smokestack or Crucible/Wasteland but Trinisphere is a 3 drop and we already have a ton of those. Further I don't like that it does nothing vs cmc3+ stuff. So Tsphere is better in early game but Sphere of Resistance is better in the mid to late game when we have Port, Waste locks, Smokestack etc. Speaking of SoR...
4 Sphere of Resistance: I wanted another 2 drop "lock" piece to keep cmc low which is one of the main reasons I run it. Yes it also hurts us but we can power through it with our sol lands and mox diamonds etc.
0 Metalworker: I love this card, but not in this deck. I want to be creatureless and lower curve which means not relying on a 3 drop to cast 4/5 drops.
3 Walking Ballista: Okay, not exactly creatureless. I don't really view ballista as a traditional creature as 99% of the time it's spot removal. Ratchet Bomb is too slow to kill something like Jace to I wanted some more flexibility. Killing tiny creatures/planeswalkers/win the game on its own while being an artifact makes it really really good in almost every situation. Even just the option of casting it for 0 to clear my hand for bridge is great.
Matches:
I played 3 KotR decks so my memory is a bit rough. Generally unless explicitly mentioned otherwise many games ended with a Smokestack lock. Most of my commentary is about the opening turns where the hardest decisions generally take place as per usual with this deck.
M1: Grixis Control
G1: He FoWs my Chalice, then casts some Strixes and counterspells a Karn. Midgame he KCommands a Sphere of Resistance and makes me discard a land. I then cast a Crucible and beat him to death with recurring Mishra's Factories.
G2: I play t1 Crucible which meets his Spell Pierce. I play a bridge which resolves, then a 3rd mox diamond and inventor's fair. He EEs for 0 and passes, so I wasteland him off 3 mana and get a crucible with fair. He doesn't pop the EE allowing me to play Crucible around Spell Pierce. That lets me recur wastelands and factories and win from there. He didn't find one of his 3 Kcommands that game which was key.
M2: Dark Maverick
G1: He develops a board with KotR and Noble and some other stuff, but luckily I find my Tabernacle and severely hamper his mana development. I think I also have crucible since he grabs a Cradle with kotr rather than wastelanding the Tabernacle. Eventually I run him out of resources with Smokestack.
G2: He thoughtseizes my Karn, but of course I immediately topdeck a 2nd and quickly overrun him with CA while hiding behind bridge. He tries to resolve a Ramunap Excavator but only has 3 mana and I have Sphere in play. Smokestack / port end him soon after.
M3: Aggro Bant
G1: He FoWs an early chalice, then lands 2 kotrs. I have Karn so plan on making a token to stabilize, but need a chalice on 1 to not lose to STP. I buried ruin the early chalice back and cast it, but walk right into daze and then concede.
G2: I have no idea what happened in this game. I think he kept a really bad hand and I got a wasteland lock.
G3: This was a really really long game. He lead tundra pass, so I wastelanded it. He surgically extracted my Wastelands which I was glad to see as it doesn't do much. From there the game was a blur as I got Crucible online and found a Ghost Quarter. He had no basics in the deck so I alternated between recurring Mishra's Factories to chump his 11/11 kotr and GQing his stuff. A Karn eventually got the ball rolling and I made some constructs that ended the game.
M4: Maverick
G1: I think this was a game where I got out an early Smokestack but had to sacrifice it to itself because I didn't have a crucible and he had like KotR/Noble/BoP + a bunch of lands. From there I believe a Tabernacle saved me and possibly a bridge. I then used Buried Ruin to get back Smokestack and locked out the game from there.
G2: Another long game that I ended up restarting with Smokestack on 2 to clear his 2x Thalia board but that left me up a land and wiped out most of his basics. From there I established a Bridge, Tabernacle, Crucible, Port, Karn, Chalice, Smokestack lock and rode out an easy victory.
Closing Thoughts: This deck is a blast to play. I don't know I'd make any changes except put in a 2nd Tabernacle if I owned it. Karn is great. Lock pieces are great. Smokestack creates board states/decision trees that are more complex than anything I've played in a long time. I never understood why people put Powder Keg in their SB rather than a 4th Ratchet Bomb until it got pithing needled. I think Walking Ballista is the truth and am looking forward to exploring it more. Playing against mono-creature decks all night was pretty nice. I don't actually know what our good/bad MUs are. I would imagine Burn is pretty bad. Last thing -- does it actually matter what order you stack Tabernacle/Smokestack? I think the right answer is Tabernacle first then Smokestack so they have to pay for creatures they might've wanted to sac otherwise. But if you think they're going to keep all of them then possibly reverse order so they lose the creature if they forget to float mana before saccing? IDK, seems corner case. Anyway, thanks for reading.
Last edited by Kaono; 08-21-2018 at 05:28 PM.
Great job!
I agree that it is a blast to play and I really like your list. No 3-ball is certainly an interesting choice, but I like your logic and may give it a spin!
I believe you want to stack the Smokestack and then Tabernacle so that Tabernacle resolves first. This forces them to pay for a creature that they may want to sacrifice to the Smokestack. It will likely depend more on the rest of the board, though. I would certainly do it this way if you have an active Bridge or enough construct tokens to keep them from attacking effectively. Hindering their development to pay for a useless creature to sacrifice would be preferred.
I'm glad you like my Trinisphere logic since I don't entirely agree with what I wrote earlier, haha.
After thinking more about it for a day this is where I stand on the Trinisphere - Sphere of Resistance argument:
Obviously both Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance are great alongside Port / Wasteland / Smokestack. That's a no-brainer and it was wrong for me to state that SoR is somehow better lategame than TSphere.
Trinisphere's primary draw is it's way better vs Daze/FoW, both of which are really bad for us because any turn an opponent can develop their board by casting something then hinder our development by countering something is extremely bad. That reason alone might be enough to play Trinisphere and will be something I keep a close eye on.
However, what I absolutely hate about Trinisphere and the reason I want to play SoR is Tsphere does nothing vs cards like K Command and Jace which I think cause more game losses than something getting FoW'd. 3 mana is kind of the magic number for the deck -- I can almost always craft the early game to a point where I am wasting/porting someone to keep them at/around 3 mana. Since the demise of BUG and Decay there just aren't many 1/2 mana spells I care about, and SoR is ONLY worse than TSphere against 1 mana spells (counter-magic notwithstanding). Some people will point out that SoR is symmetrical and affects us too, which can be a real issue, but in matches where it matters (non-sol land mirrors) we have the asymmetrical advantage of our sol lands.
So, considering all the above, and adding on the fact that TSphere is 3 mana and typically cast on t2, I'm happy to cut TSphere and play a situationally better/worse card like Sphere of Resistance that can be consistently cast on t1.
Last edited by Kaono; 08-22-2018 at 01:10 PM.
You can't stack Tabernacle, it's not your trigger.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Well, if it's not too late for me to backtrack, I would say this better articulates what I agree with for Trinisphere vs Sphere of Resistance.
Trinisphere is an amazing turn 1 play, but you then have to commit to keeping them off 3 mana. With Sphere of Resistance, your commitment to mana denial is lessened as the Sphere 'tax' remains in effect. Now against 'horrible' cards like Jace or K Command (which feels like the current worst), you have more options. Personally, I've not been a fan of Port more recently as I don't feel like we can take full advantage of it (like DnT with using Vial) and it relies on other cards (like Trinisphere or SoR) to be 'good'. 2 mana a turn to tax them 1 mana has been too situationally bad lately. The format is just so fast... Recently, I've been debating testing again with Winter Orb.
Dice is correct, on your opponent's turn, the Tabernacle triggers will all resolve after your Smokestack trigger (APNAP), on your turn, you choose. I was confusing this with Smokestack and Tangle Wire triggers. You always want them to sac before tapping down.
@ Thread: about trini vs SoR.
I think the real deal is all about CA and CDA. You can stack up the SoR, the reverse is not true for Trini. Basically, you'll never want to draw another trini after the first one (safe the first one was destroyed or sacc'ed to Smokestack).
The stax's philosophy is about locking your opponent. Trini is more for stomping your opponent in the early game and kill him before he can recover.
That doesn't mean that you should not play Trini, as it can be a way to achieve your lock. But I would advise no more than 1 or 2 in your 75 (for a stax deck).
APNAP - bitching is real
The way triggers are working is really funny. To master (and I don't as I would make many mistakes especially in the long run) how it works takes ages (and a lot of practise).
Anyway, this reminds me few tricks. One of the best is involving Tabernacle + Stack + Tangle wire. If your oppo forgot floating mana while tapping for Tangle it can lead to huge blowout when they resolve the Tabernacle trigger...
Another way to win (Bitching is life) = GRV. This is really bad and hard to judge.
Just remind that some players (even the good ones) could lose their temper. Just be aware of that while playing this deck.
Have fun.
Legacy & Homebrew **ONLY**
Brown Stax
Rainbow SWAT
Dimir Mill
Morph my Ride
Wally Wallah
Corona Syndrome
Port sucks in certain situations, but what other land would replace it? It's so good in lockdown/smokestack situations I can't think of another land I'd want that'd be better in "normal" situations.
Thanks for the reminder about Tabernacle. I rarely play with it so when my opponent asked me how I was stacking my Tabernacle/Smokestack triggers I just went with it.
I plan on continuing to play with the deck so am curious to hear from the Stax vets what the matchup favorabilities and sideboards should look like in the current meta. Looking back it seems like people had a hard time with Maverick and Thalia decks.
Hey, Kaono. Nice 4-0! I was your Bant opponent on Monday, and those were some pretty interesting games. I didn't see much of your deck the first game, so I assumed you were on Bomberman, which you played recently, even though there were a couple of pieces, like Ghost Quarter, that wouldn't usually be in that deck. Thus, I sideboarded incorrectly. Game 2 I succumbed to Tabernacle after Crucible + Wasteland wrecked my lands. Game 3 was a game where you got out Smokestack but chose to let it go, probably because your life was so low. I was thinking your hand had to be full of 3-drops and 4-drops. I had a Knight, you had a Crucible, you had a Ratchet Bomb, I had a Pithing Needle naming Ratchet Bomb, and you had a Spellskite and Smokestack on 1. From the way you described your Game 1 of Round 4, you may be conflating that game with our Game 3 (although it's quite possible a similar situation came up in your Maverick round). Karn, Scion of Urza, which you went to 2 life to cast off an Ancient Tomb, definitely was the closer in Game 3. When I had the Birds of Paradise, I was hoping to use it to fly over with Exalted for the last points of damage, but I believe you cut it down with a Walking Ballista. I drew the Pridemage way too late, and Karn's constructs did work.
Did you play the deck again this week, Kaono? I'm tempted to put together something resembling your list as I think I have everything except the bridges.
Huh. I found a very similar 5-0 list on mtggoldfish but it doesn't get grouped at all because it doesn't have a single coloured card! Link for anyone interested: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/visual/1291243
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