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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Stax

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    Yay! Congrants! Its a particular list I simply dont know why death a taxes is dtb and stax a sucking tier 2. :-(
    Because d&t is both cheaper and more competitive?

  2. #82
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    Yay! Congrants! Its a particular list

    I simply dont know why death a taxes is dtb and stax a sucking tier 2. :-(
    Stax is very dependent on the strength of its opening hand. It has an atrocious curve. D&T can reasonably make a miss a few land drops and be operating fine. Stax usually can't skip a land drop in the first 3 turns and still maintain control.

    D&T works to remove threats retroactively.
    Stax works to prevent threats from being cast.

    While objectively more powerful (lock, prison, 'Geddon), Stax is a weaker deck due to having less even (close to 50/50) matches. Some matches are 80/20, but others are also 20/80. D&T has more even matchups, and with some skillful play, grind out wins.
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  4. #84
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Cool list. Mind if I ask what you side in and out against different decks?

  5. #85

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by B4L4 View Post
    For those still trying to revive the deck, you will find below what i am testing atm :

    ### Field-Stax ###
    Non-creatures permanents (28)
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Suppression Field
    4 Trinisphere
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Ghostly Prison
    4 Smokestack
    Creatures (4)
    4 Magus of the Tabernacle
    Non-permanents (4)
    4 Armageddon
    Lands (24)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Wasteland
    4 Flagstones of Trokair
    6 Plains
    1 Mishra's Factory
    1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
    Sideboard (15)
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Oblivion Ring
    2 Humility
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Leonin Abunas
    1 Rest in Peace
    I highly recomend you add 1 copy of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

    GC.

  6. #86

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Why? You can't tutor for it.

    It doesn't generate mana. It uses up a land drop and creatures are not this deck's weakness, other control decks are.

  7. #87
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    So I've had a lot of success with this token-centric list recently, albeit only online:

    Mana Sources (31)
    7 Plains
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Flagstones of Trokair
    4 Wasteland
    4 Mox Diamond
    2 Scrubland*
    2 Kjeldoran Outpost

    Lock/Control (21)
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Smokestack
    3 Trinisphere
    2 Bottled Cloister
    2 Humility
    2 Armageddon

    Win (8)
    4 Lingering Souls
    2 Timely Reinforcements
    2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

    Sideboard (15)

    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Nihil Spellbomb or Tormod's Crypt
    3 Pithing Needle
    2 Tangle Wire
    2 Humility
    2 Oblivion Ring

    *Scrubland is there only to facilitate flashing back Lingering Souls, and may not be pulling its weight in this regard. I had tested Bitterblossom in the main briefly, and if you go that route you probably want to drop the MD Cloisters for the Blossoms and swap in a third copy of Timely Reinforcements for one of the Lingering Souls.

    The sideboard is where I have the most complaints. I'm thinking of removing the Needles for 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Bottled Cloister because of how good Tangle Wire has been in the Miracles matchup and how much you want to get Cloister/Bridge up and running against Tempo. The large capacity this build has for making tokens makes ramping Smokestack up to 2 or 3 pretty easy, especially with Elspeth or Kjeldoran Outpost on board. The Outpost slot started out as a 1-for-1 swap with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and fills very much the same role, except it can answer things that they'd normally being willing to pay for as long as they're ground pounders and combos way, way better with Smokestack.
    Last edited by btm10; 03-09-2014 at 06:13 PM.

  8. #88

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Why? You can't tutor for it.

    It doesn't generate mana. It uses up a land drop and creatures are not this deck's weakness, other control decks are.
    Huh?

    If you run the prison versión and you include magus of the tabernacle you have an extra uncountereable mage.

  9. #89
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    Huh?

    If you run the prison versión and you include magus of the tabernacle you have an extra uncountereable mage.
    It doesn't matter if that "uncounterable mage" isn't good in problem matchups.

    Edit: Also, B4L4 - I like Leonin Abunas, but wouldn't Hanna's Custody be better?

  10. #90

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    It doesn't matter if that "uncounterable mage" isn't good in problem matchups.

    Edit: Also, B4L4 - I like Leonin Abunas, but wouldn't Hanna's Custody be better?
    As you probably know, stax depends on redundance. Tabernacle not being tutored is still good because it fits with whole strategy of prison stax.

    And on the "shroud" cards....have you had an specifical trouble with artifact removal?

  11. #91
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Stax depends on redundancy to hit functional opening hands, not so much when it's playing off of the top. Multiples of things like Trinisphere and Crucible are only useful if you're ramping Smokestack up very high or facing lots of removal. Adding a 5th Tabernacle effect doesn't do anything but help you draw more Tabernacle effects which, generally speaking, aren't needed. Using The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale as the Tabernacle effect is bad because, as Captain Hammer pointed out, it uses a land drop and doesn't make mana so you're slowing your own development in order to play it. Openers with Tabernacle have one fewer land than they appear to, and it's a wasted land drop before you're actually locking them down. I'd rather have a 1- or 2-of MD Tangle Wire or an additional MD Cloister than a 5th Tabernacle effect. This is probably made even clearer by the fact that I don't have any Tabernacles in my list.


    I started off with a more traditional Prison build (the 75 that top 16'ed SCG Columbus) and have been tweaking it through testing since then. Outside of an awful Death and Taxes matchup, I'm at ~50/50 against BUG Delver and Shardless BUG, slightly better than that against Stoneblade, UWR Delver, and Deathblade, and obviously quite strong against all sorts of non-Show and Tell combo (and even Show and Tell is pretty tractable because of Chalice @ 1 and 8-10 Show and Tell-able answers postboard). MUD isn't favorable yet, but I don't think we should be thinking about non-DTB level opponents right now. More to the point, the token-making capacity lets you go beyond 1-for-1 permanent trades and coming out ahead of your opponent because of replacement abilities like Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai and Flagstones of Trokair and lands that produce more than 1 mana to using Smokestack to generate real card advantage. If you play Lingering Souls right, it's at least 2 permanents for 1 card, and it's 4 permanents more often than not. That gives you significant time to topdeck additional permanents, to develop your board, and to refill your hand while your opponent flounders under Chalice @1 backed up by Crucible and Stack at 1 or 2. Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Kjeldoran Outpost are frequently backbreaking in the mid-to-late game, as no deck can break the asymmetry of Stack at 2 when you're just tapping some lands and wiping their board while remaining largely unaffected. I'd love to make room for MD Tangle Wire to make the lock even harder and these cards even less symmetric.

  12. #92

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    First of all. Do you own a tabernacle? Why do you think tbat it is in almost every stax list?

  13. #93
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    Stax depends on redundancy to hit functional opening hands, not so much when it's playing off of the top. Multiples of things like Trinisphere and Crucible are only useful if you're ramping Smokestack up very high or facing lots of removal. Adding a 5th Tabernacle effect doesn't do anything but help you draw more Tabernacle effects which, generally speaking, aren't needed. Using The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale as the Tabernacle effect is bad because, as Captain Hammer pointed out, it uses a land drop and doesn't make mana so you're slowing your own development in order to play it. Openers with Tabernacle have one fewer land than they appear to, and it's a wasted land drop before you're actually locking them down. I'd rather have a 1- or 2-of MD Tangle Wire or an additional MD Cloister than a 5th Tabernacle effect. This is probably made even clearer by the fact that I don't have any Tabernacles in my list.


    I started off with a more traditional Prison build (the 75 that top 16'ed SCG Columbus) and have been tweaking it through testing since then. Outside of an awful Death and Taxes matchup, I'm at ~50/50 against BUG Delver and Shardless BUG, slightly better than that against Stoneblade, UWR Delver, and Deathblade, and obviously quite strong against all sorts of non-Show and Tell combo (and even Show and Tell is pretty tractable because of Chalice @ 1 and 8-10 Show and Tell-able answers postboard). MUD isn't favorable yet, but I don't think we should be thinking about non-DTB level opponents right now. More to the point, the token-making capacity lets you go beyond 1-for-1 permanent trades and coming out ahead of your opponent because of replacement abilities like Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai and Flagstones of Trokair and lands that produce more than 1 mana to using Smokestack to generate real card advantage. If you play Lingering Souls right, it's at least 2 permanents for 1 card, and it's 4 permanents more often than not. That gives you significant time to topdeck additional permanents, to develop your board, and to refill your hand while your opponent flounders under Chalice @1 backed up by Crucible and Stack at 1 or 2. Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Kjeldoran Outpost are frequently backbreaking in the mid-to-late game, as no deck can break the asymmetry of Stack at 2 when you're just tapping some lands and wiping their board while remaining largely unaffected. I'd love to make room for MD Tangle Wire to make the lock even harder and these cards even less symmetric.
    hi btm10 can you propose one list? thanks

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    First of all. Do you own a tabernacle? Why do you think tbat it is in almost every stax list?
    Whether or not I own a Tabernacle is irrelevant. I don't but I have the means to acquire one, so I'm really not sure what your point is here. We're discussing what makes the 'optimal' list. I don't know why it's in almost every current Stax list because it's never pulled it's weight in mine.

    Edit: To answer your earlier question, I think that you should have an answer to artifact removal if you're going to be running Bottled Cloister. Getting your hand RFG'd by Krosan Grip or Wear/Tear or Smash to Smithereens or Uktabi Orangutan elf is a serious problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by diego1985 View Post
    hi btm10 can you propose one list? thanks

    Inviato dal mio GT-S7500 con Tapatalk 2
    I posted my current list further up on this page. I have swapped the Scrublands for Plains, though.

  15. #95
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    I really like the use of Timely Reinforcements here. Makes men to block an early rush, gains life lost from Tomb, and doubles as a win con? Sweet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  16. #96
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Thanks. If it weren't so situational I'd be running at least a third copy, but sometimes you actually have a hard time getting the dudes out of it. Then again, you're usually winning by that point. What I really want is a transformational sideboard where you just get to board out the lock, play Crusade, and smash face with tokens and, I dunno World Queller or Exalted Angel. Unfortunately, with Death and Taxes being Stax's worst matchup, I don't see that happening. I know that Glorious Anthem exists, but 1WW is very different from WW in just about all other matchups.

  17. #97
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Honor of the Pure bro

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  18. #98
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    I might have to try this, then.

    4 Honor of the Pure
    4 Oblivion Ring
    4 Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Humility
    2 Exalted Angel
    1 White Knight

    Sorry, I don't know new cards at all. Aside from the stuff in Enchantress and the various Tier 1 lists.

  19. #99

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Tnacle is relevant because it goes with the whole strategy of the deck. I does not add mana, so what? You have 20+ adding mana lands + 4 mox.

    Check this (1 of multiple examples):

    Opening: Prison + mox + Tnacle + City + Crucible + Oring + whatever.

    You are untouchable by creatures. Prison now tax for 3 thx to tabernacle.

    T1: mox (discard Tnacle), city, cast prison.
    T2: Cast crucible, play tabernacle.

    Now a deck with shaman which went with fetch in t1 will not touch you for a long time. Got the idea?

    Anyway....i played stax for month and always run tnacle, moat and karakas. ;)

    Side note: if you are going to pay WW for an spell, it MUST be a bomb. Dont waste your time with white knight or crusade and crap like that.

  20. #100
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    Tnacle is relevant because it goes with the whole strategy of the deck. I does not add mana, so what? You have 20+ adding mana lands + 4 mox.

    Check this (1 of multiple examples):

    Opening: Prison + mox + Tnacle + City + Crucible + Oring + whatever.

    You are untouchable by creatures. Prison now tax for 3 thx to tabernacle.

    T1: mox (discard Tnacle), city, cast prison.
    T2: Cast crucible, play tabernacle.

    Now a deck with shaman which went with fetch in t1 will not touch you for a long time. Got the idea?

    Anyway....i played stax for month and always run tnacle, moat and karakas. ;)

    Side note: if you are going to pay WW for an spell, it MUST be a bomb. Dont waste your time with white knight or crusade and crap like that.
    I understood your point before, I just disagree that it's worth pursuing. In your example, you're dedicating what, eight slots to an archetype that essentially doesn't exist? Or are you just not playing around Daze, Spell Pierce, or Wasteland in the "swing with dudes" decks that do exist? Also, while I think the transformational sideboard plan has merit, rattling off 15 essentially random cards was a joke.

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