[Deck]BUx Reanimator

[Joe Eigo]

Toss in 4x Shallow Grave, Children and Emrakul, and you've got the same deck people came up with in the Tin Fins thread. Check it out:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post992293

Yeah thanks man. Just saw that list after my post. It looks very similar but is actually more of a hybrid which tries to do different things at once and is also much more dependent on Grisel. The intent was to stay more traditional. The Tin Fins decks looses some consistency with potential "dead" draws in Emrakul and Children and includes some weaker synergy in Shallow Grave and creatures that don't do too well with it (Chancellor and Elesh). Interesting approach though.

[PirateKing]

Here is my assessment of the various Griselbrand based Reanimator decks. These decks weight the different functions of the Demon uniquely, which should help guide the rest of your deck building to be focused and always with a clear plan forward.

• Tinfins sees "Pay 7 life: Draw 7 cards" and goes nuts from there. The creature part is just a requirement for the supporting cards. If it was an Enchantment, they'd just be using Academy Rector. It makes no difference to them. They've specialized at using the draw engine to win them the game, the combat step can be at times just a convenient way to lower the storm count needed. They're combo with a big ol' capitol C.
• BR Reanimator sees a 7/7 Flying Lifelink the can cheat into play, the sooner the better. The draw 7 isn't really a crucial component, helpful in restocking for a second go around in the face of a Swords to Plowshares, but on the same terms as being a creature is to Tinfins. In a world where fast wins, they'll be the best, but their answers are all Sorceries, so their "draw 7 in response" options are lacking.
• BU Reanimator (hate this name, we're REANIMATOR god damn it) sees all parts of the card. Our win condition is through the combat step, but we have Force of Will to draw into, so there is a persistent potential use for the draw 7. We can draw up to reload in the same case as BR Reanimator, but we also have responses come our opponent's turn.

This logic makes me apprehensive of the casual dismissal of Force of Will in a blue Reanimator build. Sure BR has demonstrated it isn't required to win, but they're minmaxing with stuff like Simian Spirit Guide into Faithless Looting to ensure they're the best at what they're doing. If we're looking at Brainstorm and especially Ponder, we're saying that we're not trying our hardest at that T1 kill, and if so, then what are we doing? If the argument is for an extra strong T2 kill, then our best cards for this are stuff like Force of Will.

[Joe Eigo]

Here is my assessment of the various Griselbrand based Reanimator decks. These decks weight the different functions of the Demon uniquely, which should help guide the rest of your deck building to be focused and always with a clear plan forward.

• Tinfins sees "Pay 7 life: Draw 7 cards" and goes nuts from there. The creature part is just a requirement for the supporting cards. If it was an Enchantment, they'd just be using Academy Rector. It makes no difference to them. They've specialized at using the draw engine to win them the game, the combat step can be at times just a convenient way to lower the storm count needed. They're combo with a big ol' capitol C.
• BR Reanimator sees a 7/7 Flying Lifelink the can cheat into play, the sooner the better. The draw 7 isn't really a crucial component, helpful in restocking for a second go around in the face of a Swords to Plowshares, but on the same terms as being a creature is to Tinfins. In a world where fast wins, they'll be the best, but their answers are all Sorceries, so their "draw 7 in response" options are lacking.
• BU Reanimator (hate this name, we're REANIMATOR god damn it) sees all parts of the card. Our win condition is through the combat step, but we have Force of Will to draw into, so there is a persistent potential use for the draw 7. We can draw up to reload in the same case as BR Reanimator, but we also have responses come our opponent's turn.

This logic makes me apprehensive of the casual dismissal of Force of Will in a blue Reanimator build. Sure BR has demonstrated it isn't required to win, but they're minmaxing with stuff like Simian Spirit Guide into Faithless Looting to ensure they're the best at what they're doing. If we're looking at Brainstorm and especially Ponder, we're saying that we're not trying our hardest at that T1 kill, and if so, then what are we doing? If the argument is for an extra strong T2 kill, then our best cards for this are stuff like Force of Will.

That is a very limited view if you ask me. Sorry, no offense. From my perspective the UB list i posted is more of a BR variant with nearly the same speed, hence i would say it has a very minor impact on your T1's compared to classic RB. Brainstorm is an excellent card for combo. Ask Tin Fins Players how nuts it is to Petal/Brainstorm into Ritual. It finds missing pieces where normal BR has as only option its regular draw phase. It can make your mediocre draws much better and can setup a much better T2 with it. Or hide cards from discard. After boarding you can find your antihate and shuffling away unwanted cards. Nothing new to tell here. We all know Brainstorms power. If RB always could go T1 Reanimate i would never consider this as an option. But thats just not the case. Brainstorms helps especially in those situations where you're hands are just not explosive enough. Or help recover from opponents disruption.
Regular RB plays 11-12 Animate spells which is only done because there is just no better option. Brainstorm can turn into any card you just need right now. So dropping at least some Animates seems fine to me without having any overall effect on the decks explosiveness.

Regarding SSG: That card is really not played in many RB builds. Chrome Mox is a much more flexible option and of course works as well for the UB approach.

Thinking about this maybe this deck would fit better into the RB thread...

[PirateKing]

Perhaps what your describing is more of a RBu build rather than a UBr build. Our plan since his inclusion has been to get Griselbrand and then draw into ways to protect him until we win. Drawing into Unmask or Thoughtseize just won't cover the same bases.

[Claymore]

So all of this theory crafting and you're basically:

BR Reanimator but:

-4 Faithless Looting
-3 Animate Dead
-1 Thoughtseize

+4 Careful Study
+4 Brainstorm

Reference - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14764&d=288882&f=LE

Really depends on the sideboard and what you're trying to do (Show and Tell transformation). I think this is more BR Reanimator thread then.

[DoorDie]

...Regular RB plays 11-12 Animate spells which is only done because there is just no better option. ...

I'd like to dispel this notion immediately. In its history, winning builds of UB Reanimator have ran 11-12 copies of their pieces. I'm too lazy to dig it up right now, but I recall reading on this forum around the Mental Misstep period that someone doing a lot of statistics and testing decided that 11/11/11 bin/fattie/reanimation split was ideal (and 3 Brainstorm). Entomb would count for both bin and fattie in that split.

The point is that extra redundancy is a gift in combo. What other deck has access to more than two playsets of all its pieces? None that come immediately to my mind. Typically 8x is enough to build around, but if you're trying to T1 combo and open with the nuts then at 8 you only have a 65% chance of opening any one piece. 12 ratchets it up to 80%, but obviously at the cost of getting flooded on that particular piece more often.

The build strategies are getting a bit incestuous, (EDIT) but I guess we can wait for something to post results before worrying about which thread it belongs in.

[Kobra_D]

What @PirateKing was getting at I think is just how the rest of the deck shapes up around our fatties as opposed to say the color of our mana base. Classically, UB is trying to win on a later turn with the guarantee that if anything goes wrong there will be counter spells and draw spells to smooth out the mid to late game.

@JoeEigo, you're playing underground seas with more of a RB mentality, their cannot be a mid-late game. T1 griselbrand means the game better be over by T4. You're list does help dig a little with brainstorm but it doesn't provide the force back up or the other draw spells like the "typical" UB list.

I'm trying to expand my legacy collection more and so I have been bouncing between the different reanimator threads to see what's going on, and whenever I read the RB or UB variants, I'm not simply thinking about islands vs. mountains. I thinking about the slower win on T6 with force or the faster win on T4 and hope thoughtseize catches their 1 of swords.

As for TinFins, I wholeheartedly (and playfully) disagree. The primary win IS the combat step... on turn 1... Attacking for 22 with the Griz and big momma Emmy.... I'm a degenerate, I know.

[Joe Eigo]

I'd like to dispel this notion immediately. In its history, winning builds of UB Reanimator have ran 11-12 copies of their pieces. I'm too lazy to dig it up right now, but I recall reading on this forum around the Mental Misstep period that someone doing a lot of statistics and testing decided that 11/11/11 bin/fattie/reanimation split was ideal (and 3 Brainstorm). Entomb would count for both bin and fattie in that split.

The point is that extra redundancy is a gift in combo. What other deck has access to more than two playsets of all its pieces? None that come immediately to my mind. Typically 8x is enough to build around, but if you're trying to T1 combo and open with the nuts then at 8 you only have a 65% chance of opening any one piece. 12 ratchets it up to 80%, but obviously at the cost of getting flooded on that particular piece more often.

Didn't know that statistics but it sounds very right. Well i will not deny that your T1 rate will be weakened at all. But in exchange you just get the best blue legacy card (and other strong blue options). Magic is also much about play style and as a classic reanimator, tin fins and general blue mage i really appreciate some control over my draws. That's why i do not play belcher any more. You could say then just move on to classic reanimator but my impressions is that RB outpowers UB atm so why not try to modify BR to fit the personal style.

So all of this theory crafting and you're basically:

BR Reanimator but:

-4 Faithless Looting
-3 Animate Dead
-1 Thoughtseize

+4 Careful Study
+4 Brainstorm

Reference - http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14764&d=288882&f=LE

Really depends on the sideboard and what you're trying to do (Show and Tell transformation). I think this is more BR Reanimator thread then.

You forgot the Useas. :-P Yeah basically its like that. But i wanted to keep it simple at the start and this is not like a final deck list or something. Maybe someone likes the idea so i wanted to share it. If not i am fine with that. :-)

A little off topic: The naming thing reminds me of the Dark Bant list from Duke, which ended in a new thread here but is basically Bant minus Stoneforge package and swords. Event "classic" Bant decks itself differ quite a lot especially if GSZ toolbox is used.

[PirateKing]

What is telling from your list Joe is the need for 3-4 Chancellor of the Annex taking up space. If you're not aiming for a super fast T1 kill, then what are they doing here? Telegraphing an important early turn only to better sculpt your hand with Brainstorm doesn't seems efficient. If you wanted a high-speed-low-drag Reanimator list with blue in it, I'd take your list and replace the Unmask with Force of Will and play with some of the nonblue cards like Dark Ritual and Collective Brutality to make sure I have enough to support the Froced T1 in case Chancellor doesn't show up.

[Joe Eigo]

What is telling from your list Joe is the need for 3-4 Chancellor of the Annex taking up space. If you're not aiming for a super fast T1 kill, then what are they doing here? Telegraphing an important early turn only to better sculpt your hand with Brainstorm doesn't seems efficient. If you wanted a high-speed-low-drag Reanimator list with blue in it, I'd take your list and replace the Unmask with Force of Will and play with some of the nonblue cards like Dark Ritual and Collective Brutality to make sure I have enough to support the Froced T1 in case Chancellor doesn't show up.

You got it wrong. I am still aiming at a super fast T1. I mean its currently just 4 cards different then RB. Most of the times there is no difference in starting hands compared to RB. I can not give you statistics on that. Brainstorms (and evtl. some ponders) should in theory strenghten your not so broken starting hands. And especially after boarding your T1 kills will not be that efficient anymore when fighting through hate. Which is a general problem Reanimator has isn't it ? Cantrips and easy access on SnT can help a lot on that too.

Regarding Chancellor i like it especially in a combo heavy meta (last time i played 2 of 5 games vs storm in local tourny). A 5/6 non-legend Thalia seems good enough to play at least one copy of. So everything between 1 and 4 seems possible. Well at least its good to know there is potential for making some more space in the deck.

[PirateKing]

Regarding Chancellor, if you're playing it for the Leyline effect, you're going to want 4 for opening hand probabilities. As soon as you start talking about it as a 1 of, now we're open to direct comparisons to all our other creatures, where I find her very lacking. She doesn't solve any problems we have and offers a turn slower clock than I expect out of my straight beater creatures. 1 of is an Entomb target, and Entombing for a Chancellor? I got to imagine you've have a few Surgicals thrown your way before you're Entombing for Chancellor.

So look, it seems our differences really line up at Unmask versus Force of Will. In a deck without blue, Unmask will do well. I like it in BR. But you're seriously hobbling yourself by not including Force of Will in this deck.

[PirateKing]

Someone PM'd me asking for my decklist, but I ain't no coward, I'll post it public!

3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Grave Titan
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Hapless Researcher
2 Izzet Charm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Blazing Archon
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Echoing Truth
2 Duress
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Darkblast

[DoorDie]

So look, it seems our differences really line up at Unmask versus Force of Will. In a deck without blue, Unmask will do well. I like it in BR. But you're seriously hobbling yourself by not including Force of Will in this deck.

I agree with this. Also, if I don't have Ponder then I want a full 11-12 reanimation spells and possibly 1-2 more targets. Careful Study is no substitute for a real cantrip, and that's another major difference that makes UB more consistent than BR.

[Cpt-Qc]

I need some help...I've been pondering over this for a few days. I want to try 3xCB main so I have to shake up my list a bit and I'm not sure where I should go from there.
I run the usual package of 10 reanimation, 7 targets, nothing fancy.

What would you suggest between these blue flex slots:
1) 3 Daze, 1 Misdirection, 2 Ponder (current list)
2) 3 Daze, 3 Hapless Reseacher
3) 3 Ponder, 3 Hapless Reseacher
4) 2 Ponder, 1 Misdirection, 3 Hapless Researcher

I see a lot of people move away from ponder and/or daze and I'm tempted to try option 4.

[kingtk3]

I'd like to dispel this notion immediately. In its history, winning builds of UB Reanimator have ran 11-12 copies of their pieces. I'm too lazy to dig it up right now, but I recall reading on this forum around the Mental Misstep period that someone doing a lot of statistics and testing decided that 11/11/11 bin/fattie/reanimation split was ideal (and 3 Brainstorm). Entomb would count for both bin and fattie in that split.

...

I think you're referring to these posts (and the others related):
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post560048
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post561631
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post562373

Unfortunately the images with the percentiles breakdown are not avaible anymore. I kept those links in my bookmarks because they were very well done.

[PirateKing]

What would you suggest between these blue flex slots:

Are you asking in the context of a standard list, or in a list with Counterbalance?

[Kobra_D]

@PirateKing The deck looks like a list I saw LSV play about a year ago. The grixis frame always seemed sweet, plus you get to cast [CARDS] Izze Charm[\CARDS] which is always baller.

@Cpt-QC I'm not sure hapless researcher lies along our interests anymore. If you want a faster reanimate like BR, then jamming in discard and cards like careful study do let you go a littler further as efficiently. Where as if you don't mind knuckling down for a "longer" game, then [CARDS] Jace, Vryn's Prodigy [\CARDS] seems more efficient in the long run. Also, what is the misdirection specifically for in your build/meta? Is it serving as a counter spell or are you looking to hit something like ancestral's with it?

[PirateKing]

My 4 color list came from Stryfo, so all credit to him. He and I we're testing it before that spike from the pros that one event.

[Cpt-Qc]

Are you asking in the context of a standard list, or in a list with Counterbalance?

Just a standard list. I meant Collective Brutality, not the abomination that is counterbalance :P

@Cpt-QC I'm not sure hapless researcher lies along our interests anymore. If you want a faster reanimate like BR, then jamming in discard and cards like careful study do let you go a littler further as efficiently. Where as if you don't mind knuckling down for a "longer" game, then [CARDS] Jace, Vryn's Prodigy [\CARDS] seems more efficient in the long run. Also, what is the misdirection specifically for in your build/meta? Is it serving as a counter spell or are you looking to hit something like ancestral's with it?

With more instant and less permanent hate being in the meta in the form of surgical/faerie, I feel hapless is not a bad choice. I wouldn't hate having something to bring back when people surgical in response to exhume and It can potentially bin another creature in response if you are lucky. It also makes a fine protection against sac effects and blocks one attack. Also daze is noticeably worse than hapless will ever be if the game goes long.

The problem with Jace is it's so damn slow sometimes and it sucks even more in the face of drs.

Misdirection is just the fifth force for counter wars. Sometimes you get lucky and can use it on ancestral, StP or AD but most of the time it's just a counter. It gets sided out in any fair matchup.

[CptHaddock]

My 4 color list came from Stryfo, so all credit to him. He and I we're testing it before that spike from the pros that one event.

Hey PirateKing, your list is pretty interesting. What do you think are the advantages of the red splash over traditional BUg and BU lists? It seems like in general you are giving up some speed for redundancy/consistency.