Yes I remember that. Garobadou mathematically determined the list that is most likely to combo off by turn two or three at the latest. That list was an absolute monster in terms of consistently comboing off with either Thoughtseize, Daze or FoW backing it up as well. Wonder why his list never took off.
Its a shame he is no longer active. Would love to see an updated list from him that maximizes consistency in the post griselbrand era.
Based on your excellent feedback, I revised my decklist as follows...
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Animate Dead
2 Hapless Researcher
3 Thoughtseize
4 Griselbrand
1 Jin-Gixaxis, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shiled of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidesproud Tyrant
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
This puts the count to...
10-13 Discard Outlets (Counting the 4 Entomb, it's 13 if you count Thoughtseize, 10 otherwise)
12 Fatties (Counting the 4 Entomb)
12 Reanimators
Yes I realize that I actually increased the Animate Dead count rather than reduce it. This is because I wanted to get to the same 12/12/12 split Garobadou's calculations advocated in favor of and even with its vulnerability to Decay, Animate Dead is still the third best reanimate spell the deck has access to bar none. It doesn't cause loss of life like reanimate and it doesn't suck in the mirror matchup like Exhume. The fact that the first copy can be blown up is all the reason to play more, not less imo. Given the existence of Decay, one just has to be more vigilant about trying to Thoughtseize prior to casting it when you're facing down a Bayou.
I'm not a fan of Jin-Gitaxias these days but I do like that you didn't cut any Griselbrands for him.
I think the direction you're taking the maindeck with going all in on the ultra aggressive graveyard plan is interesting (like the Izzet Charm lists) and I'll be interested to hear about your results.
If your going all in on the reanimatepath, would you not be better of with Goryo's Vengeance instead of the animate dead? Okay, it's just one shot, but you are no longer vulnerable to abrupt decay. Just my 5 cents.
That's an interesting thought but I wish to play reanimator, not TinFins. The only way Groyo's could work in this deck is if you opt to play 4 Griselbrand + 4 Jin-Gixaxis as the creatures. If you opt to do that, I supposed you could end up with an interesting Reanimator and TinFins hybrid, but that's not what I'm interested in either.
Hapless Researcher ended up a bit too inconsistent for my tastes, so this is where I ended up instead...
//Produce (17)
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
2 Island
//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
//Disrupt (11)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
//Combo (16)
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Animate Dead
//Kill (8)
4 Griselbrand
1 Jin-Gixaxis, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidesprout Tyrant
Thoughts?
The creatures are the same as mine, except for the fourth griselbrand which I shifted with a Grave titan in order to have a good option against liliana and karakas.
The problem I see is that you literally have no outs against deathrite shaman OTD: since you don't play show and tell main deck you have to use the grave but you don't have any mean (apart fow) to deal with DRS nor the speed bump that lotus petals gives to ingnore it.
I imagine that in G2 you'll have cards to deal with him but I think that in G1 DRS would be a pain for you, and it's a card that it's widely played.
Maybe going down 2 lands and 2 animate dead for 4 lotus petal would be an idea? I found the shaman very less frightening when I can afford 2 mana on turn 1.
Ignorance is strength
Thank you for the feedback. Lotus Petal is a solid idea.
Ok, will go...
+4 Lotus Petal
-1 Swamp
-1 Island
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Animate Dead
With 4 Lotus Petal now in place, I'm almost certainly also going to try...
-1 Underground Sea
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Animate Dead
+1 Badlands
+4 Faithless Looting
... to increase the turn one combo potential even further.
I'm surprised this isn't a common route to take. More consistently being able to go off one turn earlier seems like one of the best ways to dodge the majority of the hate.
As an aside, it's a damn shame that all the best discard outlets (aside from Entomb) are blue/red.
Would be absolutely amazing if I could get away with playing Dark Ritual instead of Lotus Petal to dramatically improve the odds of going off turn one. But the only way that would be viable was if Careful Study or Faithless Looting, or hell even Hapless Researcher were black.
Makes sense about the utility of Grave Titan.
Will also consider going...
-1 Griselbrand
+1 Grave Titan
If you're splashing red you could try, as some of us already do, izzet charm as an "intelligent" discard outlet: it is slower than faithless, but is an instant (thus enabling the exhume trick), can counter a bunch of stuff (I'm looking at you RIP) and can kill DRS.
It doesn't have flashback but I don't think you'll be too eager to fire it multiple time: remeber that it's card disadvantage.
However this will bring your list very close to professor_awesome's (and mine too), which are more controlling.
For a faster list I think faithless is correct but I would also up the creature count because you don't want to fire it blindly: you want a creature in hand before casting looting/study. Maybe you can cut a daze and a brainstorm to add 2 creatures, but this is theorycrafting.
Ignorance is strength
I'm aware of the Izzet lists but like you said, that's a better choice for slower more controllish builds.
I also have thought about upping the creature count by 2 and as you indicate, the only remaining place to make cuts are Brainstorm/Daze/FoW.
Good suggestions. Taking them into account, the proposed list would look as such...
//Produce (19)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
//Draw (11)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Brainstorm
//Disrupt (6)
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
//Combo (14)
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Animate Dead
//Kill (10)
4 Griselbrand
1 Jin-Gixaxis, Core Augur
1 Tidesprout Tyrant
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
With only 16 blue cards to support FoW, I would probably be well served to cut one or two of the seven non-blue creatures in the above list for a blue Sphinx of Steel Wind and possibly a second Jin-Gixaxis, but I can't decide which one(s) to cut.
I think I would cut the fourth griselbrand because the other creatures just cover each a different role, but I will first try to play the deck as it is to see how it goes: now's playtesting time!!! ^_^
Ignorance is strength
Hmmm,
First things I see on the list that makes me doubt.
to many dorks in there. 10 is a LOT. I don't think I've ever ran more than 7 at most during a single game.
you are quite all-in right now, with hardly any consistency when it gets cut off ( due to discard or a well-placed counter)
I'd suggest running ponder or preordain instead of adding red.
Green is a better option to play because it allows all the good sideboard options you might want/need, 2 colors is enough nowadays though.
so if you take down 2 creatures and 4 lootings, you can add 3-4 cantrips and add those 4 thoughtseizes back for sure ( dunno where to grab the 7th spot, but thoughtseize are pretty good)
you'll be surprised how many players will reveal their hand before you even announced a target for it.
It looks like it slows your deck down, but you'll get a bigger chance to get a creature YOU desire instead of one of these 10.
I went with 10 to maximize the deck's speed and maximize the utility of Careful Study and Faithless Looting. That list was designed to maximize the incidence of either having an Entomb or a creature along with a cantripping discard outlet. Faithless Looting is a cantrip in this deck (you can try to argue that it's not card neutral but it actually is, it just happens to put that card directly in your yard which is precisely where you wanted it). More importantly, it digs into your deck to find you a reanimate spell.
It sounds like you would like something like this?
//Produce (18)
3 Lotus Petal
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Island
//Broken (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
//Discard (12)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
//Revive (12)
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
//Kill (8)
4 Griselbrand
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
I'm a fan of this build as well since it hits the golden 12/12/12 ratio for each piece of the combo. Yes, you ideally do not want to use Thoughtseize on yourself, but when you have no other way to get a creature into your yard, it's nice having that option. Just don't use it for that purpose when facing off against an untapped Bayou and your only reanimate outlet is an Animate Dead. As long as you avoid using it in that scenario, Thoughtseizing yourself when it's your only means of comboing off is definitely not a bad play.
Looks solid to me, I won't discuss about creatures, which is preferences and meta depending though.
Just got back into legacy and pick this deck as the starting spot. I was wondering if there is a side boarding primer somewhere on this site? I went 4-1 tonight with the deck but feel like my one loss was due to not knowing how to board correctly.
In the builds that are splashing red for izzet charm, is anyone also adding burning wish? I feel like it might be useful. I typically run a traditional ub list but I've been messing around with Grixis
Here's my list as of now:
Creatures
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 meta choices Inwell Leviathan/ Empyrial Archangel/ Platinum Angel/ Angel of Despair/ Grave Titan
Lands
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Badlands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Gemstone Mine
Spells
1 Animate Dead
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
3 Izzet Charm
3 Careful Study
3 Burning Wish
3 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection
2 Ponder
1 Show and Tell
SB
2 show and tell
1 Daze
1 intuition
1 Cunning wish
1 personal tutor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Exhume
1 Careful Study
1 Izzet charm
3 pithing needle
2 Surgical extraction
Burnign wish doesn't get entomb nor a creature to discard, so it doesn't get you any part of the combo.
Burning wish gives you a reanimation spell, a discard outlet to use when you already have a fatty in hand or a discard spell. So you can say that adds a little of consistency, but in the end you still need to draw a creature or entomb.
On the other hand, BW slows the deck down of a couple of turn (aproximatevely) and put a serious constraint on the side board.
I don't know if the tradeoff is in favor of BW but I have the feeling that's not the case.
Ignorance is strength
Burning wish is insanely slow, if you're playing red you should be playing either Izzet Charm or Faithless Looting and maybe REB's in the board and that's about the extent of it. Wishing on turn 2 basically sets you up for like a turn 4 reanimation--I think most reanimator players were hoping to have won by then.
Captain Hammer: If you just want black discard, in order to be able to run Dark Rituals, you might want to try Putrid Imp or (as I just thought of it) Cabal Therapy. Your all-in approach is certainly interesting, although personally I'm far too much in love with Ponder to play it. (I'm running ANT at the moment, but Reanimator is my backup deck for combo-heavy and Karakas-poor metas, if such would appear.)
I'm not a fan of BW in Reanimator either. A large part of Reanimator's power is the speed in which you can go off. The tradeoff for what you gain by playing BW at the cost of that speed is just not worth it, imo.
I've been liking a few Ponders as well. It adds a little more consistency to the deck for when you're looking for that single combo piece to finish your hand as well as add more blue cards for FoW, which we can have problems with if you're running too many reanimation spells + hand disruption.
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