One copy of Ashen Rider should go somewhere in the 75. It deals with problem permanents better than Angel by exiling them. That alone makes it an upgrade. Using it's ability again when it dies is just gravy.
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
You can use it as a blocker and it will kill that tarmogoyf. Still it is a good upgrade!
I think it just depends if you are running Angel of despair: if you do then Ashen Rider is an automatic update, if you don't then I don't think the improvement would suffice to warrant a spot if angel didn't make the cut.
@blindspotxxx: I doubt the rider will be played maindeck, and if you keep in side it would be against decks with S&T or some troublesome permanents like ensaring bridge, not against Goyf decks ;)
Ignorance is strength
sometimes u could AOD their goyf and reanimate instead ^_^ :DOriginally Posted by kingtk3
now u cant thru exile... ugh
Legacy decks
The Reanimator
EDH decks
The Mimeoplasm || Toolbox Reanimation Combo
Olivia Voldaren || Aggro Control
Gaddock Teeg || Support Combo Aggro
Cromat || Hypergenesis Combo
I think there's no need to reanimate a goyf since we have better bombs than a deck that has goyf.
Didn't actually make it to Star City Phily :( Should be at the Top Deck Games event Sept 28th though.
Shawn Tappen who also plays at Top Deck Games made top 2 at Star City Phily playing the following list.
Reanimator
Shawn Tappen
2nd Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 9/8/2013
Legacy
Creatures (7)
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Lands (15)
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
Spells (39)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
3 Ponder
4 Reanimate
2 Show and Tell
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
1 Sundering Titan
1 Angel of Despair
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
2 Show and Tell
Will have to talk to Shawn next time I see him and ask him about the Daze performance. I cut Daze while ago because it loses value beyond the first few turns of the game and isn't very good once your opponent knows you have it.
Reanimator
Josh Rhoades
11th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 9/8/2013
Legacy
Creatures (8)
1 Grave Titan
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Lands (15)
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
Spells (37)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Careful Study
4 Exhume
3 Ponder
4 Reanimate
3 Show and Tell
3 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
2 Defense Grid
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
1 Blazing Archon
1 Terastodon
1 Echoing Truth
2 Spell Pierce
1 Wipe Away
1 Show and Tell
1 Thoughtseize
@kingtk3
Dunno about Ashen Rider. The exile is nice but it does cost 1 more life to reanimate then Angel of Despair. It getting a second permanent when dying is nice against Emrakul.
I always prefered Terastodon to Angel of Despair. It does leave behind 3/3 elephants but it can get rid of more then 1 problem permanent and you can blow up your own land for Elephants. Also Terastodon does not die to Dismember which some Delver and other decks are running.
It's just an Example. It will probably sided against Maverick to kill the Karakas then block a huge KOTR? Anyway, it's a direct upgrade
My meta is flooded with Death and Taxes right now. Any thoughts on the best way to approach it? I'm playing the standard creature suite and the only real way to win game one is on Tidespout tyrant and a bunch of protection. Any good ideas on how to hedge against this deck? Empyrial Arcangel seems like a start.
Thanks in advance!
Playing in tournament practice against the no-land dredge (phantasmagorian deck), the best and easiest win isn't to get elesh norn, it's to revive their balustrade spy and kill them on their draw step. Hopefully you guys can use this trick
Iona on white if they don't have vial and karakas. Otherwise, go for griselbrand -> draw 7-> lotus petal-> 2nd creature. Against D n T, you generally need to resolve multiple threats unless they draw poorly.
Pithing Needles are key for dealing with Karakas, imo since we can't use our own to nuke theirs anymore.
Non-legendary big guys from the board are also important, such as Sphinx of the Steel Wind or Blazing Archon. Sadly, nothing really hoses them completely + is immune to StP or Karakas so we just have to kind of hope they don't have StP or we have a Force.
Empyrial Archangel should work here, has shroud and it races very well
Great if they're running Spy. It is a sub-optimal list though.
I run Manaless quite often, one of my fave decks > The best list runs Griselbrand though, so I would want to test against that.
Report time!!! I've attended to a 71 man event last sunday in Senigallia. I'll first list the deck, then the report and I'll reserve my consideration for the particular matches at the end.
MAIN DECK
4 lotus petal
3 griselbrand
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 iona, shield of emeria
1 tidespout tyrant
1 elesh norn, grand cenobite
1 grave titan
4 entomb
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 underground sea
2 island
2 swamp
4 polluted delta
3 misty rainforest
4 reanimate
4 exhume
4 careful study
3 thoughtseize
3 ponder
3 show and tell
SIDEBOARD
4 Pithing Needle
1 empyrial archangel
1 blazing archon
2 Flusterstorm
2 defense grid
2 Wipe Away
2 engineered explosives
1 Show and Tell
Round 1 VS RW aggro
I was paired against a legacy newcomer, in fact his deck was a porting from modern (as he explained to me) spotting Stp, humans, hellriders and so on. Poor thing he will understand the differenc between the two formats in the hard way.
G1: T1 thoughtseize (discarding his Stp), T2 griselbrand, T3 Iona, GG
G2: T2 Griselbrand, T3 Elesh-norn, GG
Props for my opponent which doesn't get mad but instead asks me more about the etenal format!!!
1-0
Round 2 VS Canadian threshold
G1: he has force of will, spell pierce and daze for my gas while I don't draw lands. A mongoose seals the game
Side: +2 defense grid (I don't mind his threats since mine are bigger), +2 engineered explosive (is a catch all against creatures and permanent grave hate like cage), -3 show and tell (works bad against mana denial and he's very likely to side in REBs), -1 Jin (he's not that big and REB is a thing)
G2: petal->study discarding griselbrand (which was in my starting 7) -> swamp -> reanimate; he conceides
G3: he mulls to 5 and I have a hand without all the pieces but with double defense grid, entomb and a cantrip. The first grid get countered but the second sticks while I'm under the attacks of 2 mongooses. At this point I entomb and exhume griselbrand followed next turn by iona. GG
2-0
Round 3 VS Omni-dream by Diego (my fellow in team)
G1: he mulls to 6 but I don't remember if I go first or not. In my first turn I entomb in his EOT and he let it resolve; I obviously fetch Iona and on my second turn I attemp to exhume with fow backup but he has 2 fow. Having used so many cards I was confident that he will not go off. On my third turn I reanimate Iona on blue: GG.
Side: +2 flusterstorm, +2 wipe away (hopefully to bounce omniscence in response to a cantrip), -3 S&T (not a good idea...), -1 Elesh-norn
G2: he goes land->ponder, I lay a fetch and pass. He drops another land and in his eot I entomb for Iona which I exhume on my turn. He told me that he had a turn 3 hand but without counters.
At the end of the match I explain him that he has to counter entomb because I then will have 8 ways to reanimate opposed to only 4 tutor.
3-0
Round 4 VS Canadian Threshold
G1: I reanimate elesh-norn on turn 2 and attack him to death while he struggles with shrinked mongooses and goyfs
Side: +2 defense grid, +2 engineered explosive, -3 show and tell (in fear his mana denial plan), -1 Jin (dies to REB and it's not a reasonable clock with goyf)
G2: I made 2 misplays here not trying to Fow his stifle to my second turn fetch and not countering his scavenging ooze late in the game. I don't know what happened but I was like out of my mind and deserved to lose.
G3: I open with thoughtseize but I don't remember what I pitch, only that he's left with a daze, some fetches and 2 ponders. I have 2 ponders too, but his are surely better because I don't find anything for the rest of the game and get stomped by 2 mongooses.
3-1
Round 5 VS Luca Cinti with UWR Delver
G1: I take some beats from a delver while I scoulpt my hand in order to play around daze and spell pierce. I entomb on T3, reanimate Griselbrand on T4 and Tyrant on T5. At the end of the game my opponent reveals a daze and a spell pierce which were unuseful.
Side: +2 defense grid, +1 empyrial archangel, +1 S&T, -1 careful study, -1 reanimate, -1 jin, -1 ponder
G2: this is one of the most tense game I've ever played. I keep an hand with lands, 2 ponders, S&T, petal, reanimate and exhume: I don't have protection but if I manage to find a creature or an entomb I have a total of 3 ways to go off. My ponders, however, find me nothing but more lands, petal and a grid which fortunately hit the field. Meanwhile my opponent casts delver (which doesn't blind flip for several turns), rest in piece, vendilion (which takes my S&T away), geist and snapcaster so that he can kill me next turn if his delver flips. At this point I'm at 14 with 5 lands, a petal and a defense grid into the battlefield; my hand is something like 3 reanimation spells, 1 entomb, 1 petal and a brainstorm.
I brainstorm in his EOT and draw griselbrand, a land and another card. Untap, play land and petal and cast griselbrand from the hand. My opponent is at 16 and has only a card in hand; I'm pretty sure he has sided out the bolts so I do the math and decide to draw 7. This needs some explanation: if he has swords to plowshares in hand I've lost because I will not be able to draw 7 and I'll be on a 2 turn clock which I couldn't race; otherwise I need to draw 7 because if he draws a StP I'm dead if I don't find more gas. So I decided to play as if he doesn't have Stp and around stifle (which would screw me) and draw 7 in my turn under grid protection: I see no fow but a seize, another griselbrand and a S&T.
We draw and go for some turns than during which his delver flips, he than thinks about attacking for a minute and than turns all of his creatures: I block the geist and take 12 damage while gaining 7, which brings me to 2. He than stifles the end of combat angel trigger, thus gaining a 4/4 flying which screws my calcuations. I attack him (now we are 9-9) and cast a seize which get forced (he uses a fetch so he's at 8); I cast another one going to 7 and see cranial and stifle, which I take. I then cast S&T into an untapped griselbrand. He doesn't attack and we draw and go for some turns until I hit an empyrial and cast a previously drawn S&T, which allows me to attack with grisel: my opponent takes going to 1 and I go to 14. He attacks with 2 snapcasters and the angel (which I block) to kill the archangel and casts another delver. I attack and he blocks with vendilion, draw 7 and hardcast a grave titan: the following turn he finally scoops.
I have to say that my opponent played very well and I'm not aware of any misplay on his part. His first delver took long to flip but he also drew well while I drew very poorly inthe early game. I'll remember this game.
4-1
Round 6 VS Marco with shardless BUG
G1: I exhume Griselbrand on T2 and my opponent scoops.
Side: +4 pithing needle, +1 show and tell, -2 carefull study, -1 reanimate, -1 ponder, -1 Jin
G2: I keep an average hand with cantrip, griselbrand and a reanimation spell. Unfortunately he seize me pitching it: his next spells are Fow (don't remember what he countered), spellbomb, double hymn (he only plays 2...), jace and deathrite. I lose.
G3: I keep an hand with 2 needles, 2 study, 2 lands and a griselbrand: it's kind of risky but I got protection, bin effect and a fatty, if only a study was a ponder it would have been infinetly better. I open with needle on shaman and in the next turns I discard gris but fail to find a reanimation spell before he shardless into his only spellbomb (though it was set up by brainstorm). I play the other needle to force him to fire the bomb, so that I can rebuild the grave, and name Jace. Meanwhile the agent is killing me and my opponent forces my S&T and casts a goyf. On my last turn I attemp to exhume an entombed griselbrand but he shows me double Fow with double pitch...
In retrospective I think I've sided wrong in this match, more of it later.
4-2
Round 7 VS Miracle
at this point I'm out of top8 let alone a miracle... see the joke here?
G1: my cantrips don't find anything and my opponent casts a counterbalance: I try to play around it and even accomplish to exhume Iona. I name blue because I want to play S&T->griselbrand next turn and I was thinking he had jace to bounce iona, but he has StP and counterbalance counters my brainstorm which I played in search of a force.
Side: +2 defense grid, +2 wipe away, +1 archangel, -1 elesh-norn, -1 study, -1 reanimate, -1 jin, -1 ponder
G2: I keep a fast hand with T1 study discarding griselbrand and empyrial, T2 exhume on griselbrand. My opponent, however, plays Karaks on T2 (he has 1 or 2, I don't remenber) and bounces gris, in response of which I draw 7. On my turn I exhume the empyrial, while the next turn he plays counterbalance, jace, RIP (with my S&T) REB on tyrant (dropped with S&T) and makes 3 angels to which I don't find an answer (note that if I had a Leviathan instead of the archangel I should have won thanks to islandwalk).
Unfortunately this was the first time I played against miracle and I think I made some errors...
4-3
CONSIDERATIONS
I think I need to improve my sideboard plan, especially knowing better what to side out. For example in round 6 I think I sided in the correct cards but in retrospective I should have sided out the forces because with all his discard it's difficult to have a card to pitch and he has only 4 fow as stack control; instead I lowered my threat count which in retrospective I think is an error.
In round 7 I should have sided in the explosives instead of wipe away, but I'm not sure what I should have sided out. However I think that Miracles is a nightmare: Stp, counterbalance, counters, terminus, karakas, RIP... can someone instruct me how to approach this matchup?
More in general I'm having troubles with my sideboard plans: what do you think are the correct cards to side out in the various matchups?
Sorry for the wall of text.
Ignorance is strength
@5doorfury
Grave Titan is actually pretty decent main deck vs Death and Taxes. They can't Karakas it and as long as they don't have the Swords or you have protection it makes 2/2 Zombies to outrace them and has death touch.
After board Empyrical Archangel is good as are needles for Vial and Karakas. Engineered Explosives can be pretty good.
@kingtk3
I don't like Jin. Griselbrand's ability to draw 7 on demand to dig for a Force of Will or to try again in response to a Swords to Plowshares is pretty key. 7/7 life link is pretty awesome too. I would run 4 Griselbrand before I run the first Jin. Jin also dies to Dismember which actually comes up as some Delver and Merfolk builds run Dismember.
I typically keep my Forces in most of the time. You need counters for removal and to deal with their counters.
I typically take out some number of Careful Study (2-4) , Reanimate (0-2), Exhume (0-2), Entomb (0-1), (0-1) Ponder for the last Show and Tell (if I think they will bring in graveyard hate which is most of the time) and what ever other cards I think I will need in that match up.
Vs Canadian
+2 Engineered Explosives +2 Defense Grid
-2 Careful Study, -1 Reanimate, -1 Exhume
This match up is pretty miserable. Play around Daze so that leaves Spell Pierce and Force. Not always possible to play around Spell Pierce with so little mana. I run 16 lands which still isn't enough. EE can kill Delver and goose and buy you time. Defense Grids help fight through their counters.
Vs mono blue Omni tell/dream
+2 Fluster Storm, +2 Wipe Away
-2 Careful Study, -1 Elesh Norn, -1 Tidespout.
This is a pretty good match up cause they can't Show and tell without the risk of you droping Iona or Griselbrand and using Griselbrand to draw into counters. Iona on blue is GG.
UWR Delver
+2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Show and Tell, +1 Archangel
-1 Careful Study, -1 Tidespout Tyrant (gets redblasted)
You have to bring in EE and Show and Tell in case they have rest in peace. Archangel dodges STP/Path
Vs Shardless Bug
+1 Show and Tell, +2 Engineered Explosives, +3 Pithing Needle
-3 Careful Study, -1 Reanimate, -2 Exhume,
This actually isn't too terrible as maindeck they only have 3 forces if that and sometimes discard which may actually help you if its Random like Hymm. You actually want Engineered Explosives to be able to kill Baleful Strix and large Tarmogoyfs. Baleful Strix is so annoying as it just walls your big creature as a flying 1/1 with deathtouch. Here is one match you might want Inkwell Leviathan but Inkwell is only good if you can get it out early. Needles are good here for Liliana and Jace. I wouldn't board out forces because you need protection vs their forces and Jace.
Vs Miracles
+2 Enginered Explosives, +1 Archangel, +1 Show and Tell, +3 Pithing Needle
-3 Careful Study, -1 Reanimate, -1 Exhume, -1 Entomb, -1 Elesh Norn
This match up is pretty miserable. Especially the Rest in Peace version. You don't want Defense Grids here because you want to be able to defend your creature against Swords to Plowshares and Terminus. Engineered Explosives gets rid of Counterbalance along with Rest in Peace and Angel tokens in a pinch. Needle is pretty important so they don't just win with Jace and to stop the Sensei's Top from floating that Terminus.
Tried Reanimator at SCG CLE (Legacy Challenge and main event) and a local weekly. Haven't played the deck since before entomb was legal, so there's definitely some rust here. Went 3-1, 1-3 drop, and 2-2 playing the Shawn Tappen list from Philly with a modified sideboard. I felt that most losses were still pretty tight games.
My two issues were UWx Swords to Plowshares + counterspells decks (0-3 vs. these) and a Burn deck that was packing both Faerie Macabre and Ashen Riders in the board. I feel like the Burn guy was just over-boarding for the matchup, so I should just accept it and move on, but correct me if I'm wrong there.
Vs. UWx, all day I was wishing I had an Inkwell Leviathan in the board, so I'll be experimenting with that change. I did try out Empyrial Archangel and did not like it at all. I'm almost tempted to try a Sigarda to get around Liliana as well, but I feel like playing against Deathblade twice was a fluke and that tighter play could probably close the door on that as an out.
Other thoughts: I want 8 real lands to hard cast Griselbrand. This happened three times in a game vs. Miracles when he had a turn 2 RiP! Right now I need Lotus Petal to do that. I'd also like to try Swan Song in place of Flusterstorm in the board, since I think we're more interested in flexible hard counters (for STP, RiP, etc.) than in having another counter-war-winner.
A Reanimator deck splashing red for Izzet Charm placed 3rd in a SCG open yesterday: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=59862
Izzet Charm is really interesting as it's a maindeck answer to deathrite that isn't dead in other matchups (by far). I used to play maindeck SnT but charm seems stronger. The mana should work out as I usually splash green for sb decays anyway.
I'm not really happy with the list, though. Zero Ponder can't be right, and it's not clear if 3 charm/3 careful study is optimal. And I don't get sideboarding dark rituals.
(I also like to sb Leyline of Sanctity, but nobody else ever does that.)
The fast mana helps out a lot vs. the tempo decks, which are Reanimator's bad match-ups. Reanimator is really well positioned now, the only top deck it struggles a lot against is RUG (UWR is pretty close to even, maybe slightly in their favor). However, it makes up for losing to RUG by stomping on almost all of the fair decks and other combo decks.
And yeah, Izzet Charm was basically made for this deck. Surprised nobody discovered it early, the most useless mode is countering a non-creature spell, and that's saying something.
I'd much prefer Duress to Dark Ritual vs RUG. Loading up on discard is also effective vs taxing counters, and it allows you to pick a path which they don't have much answer for (situational answers like Spell Snare, Surgical Extraction and Red Elemental Blast).
I think Duress and Rit both have their benefits.
I think Rit provides just a slightly more impressive result because it can allow you to go off turn 1 with Discard into entomb/study/reanimate and Duress could never hope to pull off that shenanigan.
Reanimator has been doing well recently.
Recent Star City events have seen at least 1 Reanimator in top 8/16.
I made top 8 in the last legacy tourney I played at Top Deck Games with Reanimator.
2-1 vs Goblins, 2-1 vs R/U Delver, 0-2 vs Lands, 2-0 vs Jund, 2-1 vs RUG Delver, ID.
Lost 0-2 to 4 color cascade in the top 8. game 1 he went first and had turn 1 deathrite and I couldn't find a show and tell or bin two fatties in time. game 2 I got out Iona on blue since he had suspended an ancestral visions. he got a crypt in play and I went for the entomb on griselbrand to make him use his crypt with a second in hand to careful study but he had surgical extraction for the blow out. Was not expecting Surgical out of a cascade deck since its terrible to cascade into if there are no good targets in the yard. Should have gotten Grave Titan anyway to clog up the ground. He then played Blood Braid into Goyf.
@XVII
U/W Counterbalance/RIP Miracles deck is one of the bad match ups for reanimator. You literally put your entire sideboard in and are on the Show and Tell plan since they have Rest in Peace and Countertop turns off most of your 1s and 2s so you hope to Pithing Needle Top and Jace.
Burn usually isn't too bad but you have to be careful of life loss from reanimate but if its fast Iona on Red just wins and Griselbrand usually gets there as long as you can swing with it. You can play Pithing Needle naming Faerie Macabre if that is a concern. Sideboard Ashen Riders isn't any different then playing against other show and tell/reanimator decks. You have to thought seize them before casting show and tell or just be in the reanimation plan.
My brother likes Inkwell. I prefer Empyrial Archangel because its also good vs other STP decks. Inkewell is only good if they have islands.
@akatsuki
Out of the popular decks, I find the RUG/RUW Delver, UW Rip Miracles and Maverick match ups difficult for Reanimator. Lands is also really hard but its not very popular. RUG/RUW Delver its tough to resolve anything through all their tax and counters + mana denial of stifle and wasteland. U/W RIP miracles is pretty hard to win with counter top, counters, karakas, main deck rest in peace with swords and terminus for removal. Maverick is pretty annoying with Thalia, STP, Knight fetching Karakas+ Maze. Empyrial Archangel and Grave titan help here.
I'm not sure Izzet charm is worth the red splash. It bins a creature slower then Careful Study and you have to open yourself up to Wasteland in a deck running few lands. I guess if there is large amount of Deathrite Shaman in your meta it might be worth considering but most Deathrite Shaman decks also run Wasteland.
@Aselm
I'm not sure I like the Izzet Charm red splash. Having 2 Swamps and 2 Islands certainly is good against mana denial decks and Blood Moon. I usually fetch for basics if possible. Izzet Charm costing 2 also makes it difficult to protect your combo with it. It does kill Deathrite and it does bin creatures but is it worth openning yourself up to wasteland when you have so few lands?
Main deck show and tell gives you an out against Rest In Peace which you see from some U/W Miracles players game 1 since it wins in combo with Helm of Obedience.
If your worried about taxing spells from Rug. City of Traitors is better then Dark Ritual for sideboard since they can't counter your land drop. The Dark Ritual Reanimator is called Tin Fins and its a bit different deck in that its based on going off on turn 1.
I am not a fan of sideboarding Leyline of Santity because you can't cast it unless its in your opening hand and you can't really afford to mulligan for Leyline of Sanctity when your forced to mulligan too often already because of low land count or no action.
@Nadahero
I would run 4 thoughseize before I run the first Duress. Yes it does cost life but Thoughtseize can target yourself to bin a creature or take the opponents creatures if your on the Show and Tell plan.
If you want to go off turn 1 with regularity your playing the wrong dck. Take a look at the Tin fins thread. UB reanimator has blue for protection. Yes it can go off turn 1 with land, lotus petal, entomb/careful study, reanimate but that is not the focus of the deck.
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