[Deck]BUx Reanimator

[Fox]

4x Flip-Jace seems a bit excessive. You're playing without Petals, and this is your T2 play - how are you winning through graveyard usage? There's no doubt it does everything we want fixing hands, Entomb = tutor for any part of the combo, relatively resistant to removal (you can return with Reanimate, and you can -3 to still cast that same Reanimate), and some other cool features like alt-casting from yard (cards like Massacre) or preserving life total with +1 ability.

Decay is everywhere which by itself doesn't really matter, however it means that DRS is also right there with it. Now we need removal spells with this slower plan, of which the least harmful is Izzet Charm (well until you run into Wasteland decks)? If DRS couldn't eat spells Darkblast would be the optimal card, with Flip-Jace as you could very easily dredge over 6 cards per turn very quickly assembling reanimation target and effect in yard for the -3 ability.

In my testing this card is a fine 2x in Reanimator, but if you start going above that you're probably required to be a Wasteland/mana denial deck. Now while that's doable, you're not willing to pay the real cost which includes [but is not limited to] being unable to run Decay anywhere in the 75.

[wcm8]

In testing I am seeing that 17 lands is probably excessive, and 16 is probably better. 15 *might* still be do-able despite the increased emphasis on a 2-drop (JVP).

And perhaps cutting the 4th copy of JVP might be correct. But I still think a minimum of 3 copies is worthwhile.

With the additional room from these cuts (perhaps also cutting the 3rd Ponder) we have space to add some number of Lotus Petals and/or additional copies of Thoughtseize or perhaps even the new Collective Brutality. Some might even like to add an Animate Dead as the 9th Reanimation spell, though with JVP in the deck I think its not really needed, especially given that Entomb can tutor for Reanimate/Exhume and JVP can flash them back.

With these changes, the suggested list is close to being the current "standard" forms of UBx Reanimator that have been putting up good tournament results, just with more copies of JVP in the main 60.

My point about Jace, Vryn's Prodigy still stands though: this card is insanely good in UBx Reanimator, and really does a lot towards giving the deck some mid-game power. He helps make the deck better able to recover from the first attempt or two getting disrupted. So I truly believe that EVERY version of the deck should be running a minimum of 2 copies in the 75, and I am an advocate for 3-4 copies.

edit: here's the revised list:

15 Lands (3 u. sea, 1 trop. island, 1 bayou, 1 island, 1 swamp, 4 delta, 2 catacombs, 2 rainforest)
3 Lotus Petal (alternatively, -1 Petal +1 Land, either another tropical island or basic island)
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (alternatively, -1 JVP, +1 copy of: another land or lotus petal, ponder, daze, thoughtseize, animate dead, Collective Brutality, a Reanimate-able creature chosen for the predicted metagame, some other card I'm not even thinking of, etc. -- basically whatever component you think would benefit the deck most.)
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Bstorm
2 Ponder
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Entomb
4 Careful Study
2 Thoughtseize
4 Griselbrand (some decks cut 1 GB for another target)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Inkwell Leviathan (I've found to prefer this to Grave Titan, as I seem to face more Miracles and D&T than BUG midrange decks -- Inkwell is generally better against both and is also quite good elsewhere against decks where you want a big threat with Shroud)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

A rambling, pedantic and perhaps extremely obvious and unnecessary aside regarding 61-card decks (with a tl;dr summary of the following paragraphs at the end): I occasionally see players of UBx Reanimator playing 61-card main decks. Obviously and perhaps needless to say, doing so with the above list would allow for an additional slot. Personally, I am not a fan of this approach -- an opinion that's likely shared with most Legacy players. There's been a lot of discussion elsewhere about the mathematics behind the 61st card issue, and as I recall, mathematical analysis shows that running the 61st card has a relatively minor effect on how a game might play out...

But I think that the point of discussing decklists on this site should be to work with fellow Legacy players in the Source community, bouncing ideas around, sharing tournament and playtesting results, discussing the merits of various cards both new and old, arguing for inclusions or removal of various cards and the number of copies to play of said cards... all towards the shared goal of reaching some sort of consensus as to what constitutes the maximally optimized list of an Archetype in the current metagame. (obviously I realize that given the game's complexity and finite-time between format updates, a truly optimal list is probably impossible.. but that's the Platonic Ideal.)

To me, this means playing the smallest allowable deck-size to maximize your chance of drawing the best cards, as well as minimize the likelihood of drawing weaker or situationally-usesless cards. Even though the effect of the presence/absence of 1 card is quite minor, I believe that there MUST be a "worst" card that can be cut, justified by mathematics -- and which card is cut might depend entirely on the predicted metagame.

To be fair: in Vintage, I'd be more open to potentially running a 61st card in the right deck, but that's only because of the presence of powerful Tutors and broken Card Draw spells which grant easier access to silver bullets that might've otherwise been cut as the 61st card. I suppose there are some Legacy decks that similarly benefit from Tutors and Silver Bullets given that they are running some form of Tutoring/card draw engine, but the Legacy format is designed to lack a Reserved List full of broken cards -- making it harder to argue for the inclusion of any more cards beyond 60.

tl;dr: don't run 61 cards in your Legacy decks

[RNGesus]

I dunno about 61 card decks. If its accepted that deck thinning due to fetches is negligible, then the additional card should not significantly detract from the deck's consistency. Certain packages of cards may be powerful enough to warrant going over the minimum deck size. I certainly wouldn't say that 61 card decks are out of the question.


Speaking of which, is there any consensus on the fatty selection for UBg? I noticed Sire of Insanity and Archetype of Endurance don't seem to have caught on. Sire of Insanity I understand, as it is only really useful if you power it out on the first turn or two. However the Archetype of Endurance I'd have expected to be more popular against as it helps out some of the bad matches like D&T, and maybe even miracles (Archetype+ Iona on white).

[theMonster]

I've been running Inkwell Leviathan maindeck instead of Tidespout Tyrant (which I've cut entirely for now) and have liked it a lot better. The latter needs gas in hand to be effective, and we often expend many or all of our resources to cheat it into play.

Inkwell is a bigger, more evasive body than Archetype and cuts the clock by a turn. Lands, DnT, and Miracles all struggle to beat it. DnT can't, for example, profitably block a trampling Inkwell with Thalia and then bounce her with Karakas. Inkwell is also blue, which isn't trivial. Admittedly I haven't played a ton with Archetype, but in the limited time I've played with it I've found Inkwell to be more impressive. One weakness of Inkwell, though, is you can't target it with Animate Dead (if you run it).

Is anyone running any maindeck "hate"? I recently sleeved up a miser's Engineered Explosives to combat Chalice and Deathrite, figuring E.E. is rarely a dead card. Anyone have experience with it? Any better tech?

Thanks!

[Hopo]

One weakness of Inkwell, though, is you can't target it with Animate Dead (if you run it).

That's not how this game works.

[theMonster]

Well if you target Inkwell with Animate Dead, the Animate Dead can't target the Inkwell put onto the battlefield 'cuz it has shroud ... right? So it would just fall off, and you'd have to sacrifice Inkwell(?). That's what I meant.

[RNGesus]

Well if you target Inkwell with Animate Dead, the Animate Dead can't target the Inkwell put onto the battlefield 'cuz it has shroud ... right? So it would just fall off, and you'd have to sacrifice Inkwell(?). That's what I meant.

"Auras only target while they're on the stack, not while on the battlefield. And shroud only works while it's on the battlefield, not in the graveyard or any other zone. So you can return a creature with shroud with Animate Dead."

Inkwell can be raced with batterskull or answered by Council's Judgement/ Terminus, though it is still a solid choice. The rationale for Archetype is that sometimes you need to reanimate more than once, and the Archetype protects the second fatty. Archetype+Iona on white is fatal for D&T and miracles by shutting down terminus/council's judgement and karakas.

[owerbart]

I've been running Inkwell Leviathan maindeck instead of Tidespout Tyrant (which I've cut entirely for now) and have liked it a lot better. The latter needs gas in hand to be effective, and we often expend many or all of our resources to cheat it into play.

Inkwell is a bigger, more evasive body than Archetype and cuts the clock by a turn. Lands, DnT, and Miracles all struggle to beat it. DnT can't, for example, profitably block a trampling Inkwell with Thalia and then bounce her with Karakas. Inkwell is also blue, which isn't trivial. Admittedly I haven't played a ton with Archetype, but in the limited time I've played with it I've found Inkwell to be more impressive. One weakness of Inkwell, though, is you can't target it with Animate Dead (if you run it).

Is anyone running any maindeck "hate"? I recently sleeved up a miser's Engineered Explosives to combat Chalice and Deathrite, figuring E.E. is rarely a dead card. Anyone have experience with it? Any better tech?

Thanks!

I feel cutting Tyrant is a huge mistake. I always want that card in my maindeck since it's your go to way for leading with troublesome permanents. Without maindeck Tyrant i can see your g1 against lands (usually heavily in our favor) being impossible to win since you can't beat a glacial chasm. Tyrant is also nuts against infect and chalice decks, which are at an all time high.

[owerbart]

Also I feel Grave Titan deserves a MD spot since it's great in creature combat and against the eddict decks.

My cheeky sideboard tech is a copy of Keranos, which i bring against Miracles and other White based control decks.

-Dodges Karakas
-Dodges all creature removal
-Out of Decay range, indestructable so no maelstrom pulse
-Wipes any creature DnT puts against you
-You can reanimate it through containment priest, since it will enter the battlefield as an enchantment.

Seriously, if you deploy it your only worry is Council's judgement

[PirateKing]

Seriously, if you deploy it your only worry is Council's judgement

Not entirely true, I'm actually dropping my Keranos from the side, it's underperformed in all the places it should have shined. Yes it gets in under Containment Priest, but I've seen less and less deck run it. What you also have to worry about is just getting raced. D&T Vialing out a Mom gives them a permanent answer to Keranos, then any threat becomes a losing race. Against Miracles it dodges pretty much everything they have beyond the handful of Council's Judgement, but puts up such a slow clock it's hardly a surprise when they force through an Entreat for lethal before they die. So then the solution to these problems becomes getting a second creature out, but I've always maintained this should never be the ideal game plan. In so many instances we're fighting for our lives to just get one, and any time we've landed a second, the game is already swung so much in our favor it becomes borderline win-more. Every reanimation target should aim to close the game out single handedly. Some more than others in given board states, but no creature should be part of a dedicated "one-two punch".

[cris_rj]

I´m going to play a big legacy tournament in my town in 2 weeks. I'll play with the new b/r version reanimator that is becomming popular in magic online.

My list is something like this:

14 LANDS
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
11 CREATURES
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Sire of Insanity

27 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Animate Dead
4 Lotus Petal

SIDEBOARD
3 City of Traitors
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Show and Tell
1 Sire of Insanity
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tidespout Tyrant



I'm having problems in what to side out to put 3 city of traitors and 4 show and tell. Normally I sideout 4 reanimante, but sometimes it feels like I'm loosing a lot of speed. DO you guys have suggestions in what to sideout to put those cards ? Ty !!

[RNGesus]

In so many instances we're fighting for our lives to just get one, and any time we've landed a second, the game is already swung so much in our favor it becomes borderline win-more. Every reanimation target should aim to close the game out single handedly. Some more than others in given board states, but no creature should be part of a dedicated "one-two punch".

Sadly I think reanimator is declining as an archetype. Nowadays the threats many decks play attack from too many angles and a single "silver bullet" fatty doesn't seem to cut it anymore. Council's judgement, karakas and increasingly maindeck-able grave hate mean that getting off a single reanimate is no longer the blow it used to be. Reanimator will gradually just be a weaker Sneak&Show eventually. But no deck will be as badass as reanimator in my heart and I will never dismantle it!

[Rocco111]

I´m going to play a big legacy tournament in my town in 2 weeks. I'll play with the new b/r version reanimator that is becomming popular in magic online.

My list is something like this:

14 LANDS
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
11 CREATURES
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Sire of Insanity

27 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Animate Dead
4 Lotus Petal

SIDEBOARD
3 City of Traitors
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Show and Tell
1 Sire of Insanity
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tidespout Tyrant



I'm having problems in what to side out to put 3 city of traitors and 4 show and tell. Normally I sideout 4 reanimante, but sometimes it feels like I'm loosing a lot of speed. DO you guys have suggestions in what to sideout to put those cards ? Ty !!

I believe this should better be answer in the appropriate topic: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...and-Reanimator

Still, I have a hard-time figuring out vs which MU would you cast Show and Tell while often the BR version uses Sneak Attack or Stronghold Gambit? Depending on your answer, the choice of the cards to side out would become clearer. :)

[TGCRequiem]

I dunno about 61 card decks. If its accepted that deck thinning due to fetches is negligible, then the additional card should not significantly detract from the deck's consistency. Certain packages of cards may be powerful enough to warrant going over the minimum deck size. I certainly wouldn't say that 61 card decks are out of the question.


Speaking of which, is there any consensus on the fatty selection for UBg? I noticed Sire of Insanity and Archetype of Endurance don't seem to have caught on. Sire of Insanity I understand, as it is only really useful if you power it out on the first turn or two. However the Archetype of Endurance I'd have expected to be more popular against as it helps out some of the bad matches like D&T, and maybe even miracles (Archetype+ Iona on white).

Fetches have zero effect on the 61 card discussion. The discussion is that at any moment in time within a game you could rank the remaining cards in your deck in terms of the card you most likely want to draw. If there are multiples of the best card they would be the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and potentially 4th best draws when the library is ranked out. As an simple example say there are 50 cards remaining in your deck you need a reanimation spell this next draw or you lose the game. You do not have the life to cast Reanimate, are not running Animate Dead and have already lost one Exhume through play. At the time you draw, you then have a 1/50 chance (2%) of drawing any single card. As there are 3 copies of the card you need the odds are (6%) as you essentially would be happy to draw your 1st, 2nd, 3rd best cards in this scenario as they all are Exhume. Now in the same example where you're running a 61st card instead now you are on 1/51 odds or (1.96%) and the odds of drawing 3/51 is down to (5.88%). The point is that the 61st card means that at every draw step from the very first draw step of the game you are ALWAYS minimizing the odds of you drawing the best card you COULD BE drawing. If you run 61 cards, a fetch thinning you from from 50 to 49 cards in the library just means you have 1/49 odds of drawing the single best card where if you had run 60 cards you would have had a better 1/48 odds of drawing the card.

That said I do think toolbox type decks that are very consistent with a lot of interchangeable "like pieces" and have ample ways to Tutor for a single hate card for a very bad matchup they expect to see a lot of might add that 61st card in certain metagames. I think of a deck like Elves when I say that and even there I'm not saying it's right...just that I could see cutting a small percentage against the field to get a consistently higher percentage in that matchup by having an easily tutorable target. I don't think a deck like Reanimator is going to be as consistent as Elves is at getting that specific card they need though and can't image a scenario where 61 is right for Reanimator. Again I'm not confident it's ever right for Elves even.

[owerbart]

I've been trying to test Collective Brutality, but I don't think my 14 lands + 4 petals with G and W in the sideboard can support it that well.

Does anyone has a stable manabase, maybe including petals, to support CB? the card looks pretty good.

[owerbart]

Sadly I think reanimator is declining as an archetype. Nowadays the threats many decks play attack from too many angles and a single "silver bullet" fatty doesn't seem to cut it anymore. Council's judgement, karakas and increasingly maindeck-able grave hate mean that getting off a single reanimate is no longer the blow it used to be. Reanimator will gradually just be a weaker Sneak&Show eventually. But no deck will be as badass as reanimator in my heart and I will never dismantle it!

I believe Reanimator is fine deck, that it's gonna stay as a solid choice with no decline at all. The "maindeck grave hate" is an exageration, only DRS really hurts. I do believe that CB is going to be a huge boost for the deck.

The deck posted a top8 in GPs in three years in a row (2014 Paris, 2015 Seattle, 2016 Columbus)

Reanimator isn't going nowhere.

[Cpt-Qc]

I find that I have to jam my reanimation without having counterspell backup too often..

Would it be a good idea to mainboard some misdirections and if so how many?

Edit: I currently run 4 Forces and 3 Daze main. Thinking of going back to 4 daze or 3 daze + 1 misdirection.

[CabalTherapy]

I played Reanimator in a local yesterday and won it. Nothing special here but I wanted to ask you guys (since I usually play ANT and not R) why there aren't any lists with
Decays main? I had two flex slots (generally the slots where Thoughtseize/Show and Tell comes in I assume) and decided to play 2 Decays because they do exactly what this
deck wants to answer preboard without FoW at hand. Decay > Shaman is so much better than forcing it. Decay also helps against Chalice@1 on the draw against Eldrazi/Loam/whatever.
It's also great against Infect and Delver taking away their clocks. Well, I am sure you guys know about its flexibility. I feel like it's superior to discard and random cards like Izzet Charm and supports the
reanimation plan better than using another angle of attack with SnT. I am certainly no expert but I'd say it's definitely better than "cute" cards like mini Jace.

[Ragdoll]

Has anyone tested Collective Brutality yet? Any thoughts?

[Fox]

I played Reanimator in a local yesterday and won it. Nothing special here but I wanted to ask you guys (since I usually play ANT and not R) why there aren't any lists with Decays main?

When piloting combo: if you're not winning, you're losing. Having this card in hand/drawing it does not help you win from a goldfish perspective. It is also just a plain dead card against combo (3 most represented archetypes from mtgtop8 in this category are Storm, SnT, and Reanimator). "Bad" cards can always be situationally amazing...but when they're bad, they're awful. You have to really know your local meta to mainboard cards like this and disproportionately get rewarded, because you're losing game 1 win %age when you do it in a general sense.