If you take black, you have your counters, needles and discard to handle the hate. They usually cannot counter back so you should be fine with Iona, unless they get the Karakas. But that card is a pain for us anyway.Originally Posted by Anselm
I guess i agree on not siding Grisel out generally spoken.
Why not draw 7-14 cards in that situation and play Needle and Grisel again the following turn... ?
Current Legacy decks:
Turbo Nemesis
Sneak and Show
Reanimator
Tin Fins
GW Enchantress
Not all the Griselbrands, just enough so that you aren't blown out by Karakas, Phyrexian Revoker, and Pithing Needle together game 2 and onward. I probably have a bias from playing against the same 12 to 16 people over and over again though.
Doesn't matter. You can still draw a million cards in response to Karakas. If you can't win after that, you're probably not very good.
This comment is both untrue and unhelpful.
With fetch lands, life loss through Reanimate and early pokes from your opponent, "drawing a million cards" isn't always a possibility, especially if he doesn't survive long enough to get an attack in. Specifically, interaction with Karakas depends if it's in play prior to you reanimation turn or if they rip it some time afterwards. If you play Griselbrand into an existing Karakas without some kind of follow up, then I'd categorize that as a misplay, since he's bounced at the end of your turn, with no value gained on your side.
The plan could be to use remaining life to draw into a nonlegendary/shroud dude and stick that for your clock, or dig for a Pithing Needle, knowing that Griselbrand would be bounced in response, and then stick him a second time for a win. If you don't have the life to draw on the reanimation turn or some other trick to pull, then he's pretty dead.
If they top deck it, or otherwise Crop Rotation it into play on their next turn, pretty much same situation as above, with more surprise on your end. As before, if you have the life to muster a follow up, proceed with that line, if not, well then you went and got gotten. It happens.
Either way, without Needle on Karakas or a nonlegendary/shroud creature or a bunch of life to tap into, Karakas is a legitimate threat for Reanimator decks. And since we're usually not flush with life until we've locked the game up already, be prepared to utilize options 1 & 2 more often.
Considering the deck that was being discussed was Death and Taxes, which has NO clock, I stand by my original statement. You will indeed be able to draw many cards by getting Griselbrand regardless of Karakas, because DnT is very slow to deal damage. If you want to argue that you weren't able to get Griselbrand out in the first few turns, then you should have mulliganed. I've beaten Turn 1 Karakas many times, it's not that bad.
I don't know man. D&T as a deck and Karakas as a card are real headaches to me. I mean, digging for 7-14 cards is all nice and well, but the gameplan remains winning with a fatty. And as long as they run Karakas maindeck and we do not have a maindeck answer, our entire strategy is invalidated (swing with a fatty). So having a gazillion cards might not help that much.
Only if you manage to overload the single Karakas somehow (and don't run into a second one, or a Swords or other removal) you might win.
And their clock isn't slow anymore once you go down to 4-5-6 life (depening on fetchlands, thoughtseize, Reanimate and 1-2 Griselbrand activations). If they have 2 weenies, attacking with your 1 fatty becomes very dangerous (removal = you die. No lifelink = you die).
Hi guys!
I have a question concerning sideboarding with the S&T and City of Traitors lists.
If you side in 2 x City of Traitors, do you side out 2 lands? 1 land and 1 petal? or something else?
Do you side out lands at all?
Thanks for your answers!
I usually side out two fetches but it depends on the matchup if I need to take out more unusable stuff for post-sideboard games, which could leave me room to squeeze in the Cities of Traitors.
I always run Angel of Despair or Ashen Rider maindeck to deal with problems like this or Ensnaring Bridge, Energy Field, etc. But for people that don't do this it's true that Karakas is more of a beating. Although you can get Elesh Norn and wipe their field despite Karakas to buy more time. I do run Pithing Needle in the board as well of course.
Yes, but time to do what? Elesh is a legend so it will be bounced (if there's a Karakas). And then what? Wait for a new clock on their side?
My point is that, unless you can solve the Karakas, defeat is inevitable due to a bad strategic matchup, no matter the cardadavantage Griselbrand might generate. Useless cards are useless (so stating that one is a bad player if you lose after drawing7-14 cards seems like a loose statement).
An relying on 1-2 Needles between main and board seems not that much. Asher Rider is much better (and easier to find in this deck).
Can some one please tell why Ashen Rider is preferred over Tidespout Tyrant? I know Tidspout needs an extra spell to just bounce, but Ashen Rider is a one-shot creature when it comes to removal.
/Jacob
Time to get rid of Karakas, obviously.
Matchup dependant. Against Karakas the Rider is much better. Against Mud I prefer Tyrant. One can be main imo, the other Sideboard.
I saw that Cucunato did rather well at the latest SCG Open Series and my eye catches his two Jaces in the SB. Weird, I thought.
Can anyone explain me, in which matchup one would sideboard two Jaces in along with the City of Traitors (I assume!)?
Wouldn't he just be removed in one turn? He can't seriously be a win-con.
/Jacob
Some decks slow themselves down steeply to counter our graveyards to such extent that we could drop Jace for good effect. Also works well enough in the mirror. I experimented with 2 in my list for a few tournaments, and found his uses being blue pitch, expensive brainstorm, dead card and win condition, in that order. But I had a handful of other rogue elements at the same time, so my experience shouldn't be taken as canon.
Also there's been a trend to be less reliant on S&T as our alternate wincon, since it's grown to such saturation that it's hated just as hard in game 2 as the graveyard. Look at decks running Dark Ritual to hardcast creatures for example.
What about playing a shallow grave and emrakul package? It is something like Sneak attack in Sneak&Show.
That style of play would be TinFins. Balls to the graveyard with lacking protection but silly speed. It was darling a few months back, but now I've seen less and less of it. I'm sure the local residence of the TinFins thread would know more.
Yeah i know that but TinFins can be hated so easily and in a meta with many counters it is a really hard time for this deck. I thought about a reanimator shell with some back up counters and some hand disruption.
Isn't that just what reanimator is? Entomb/Reanimate & Force of Will/Thoughtseize?
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