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Thread: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

  1. #1

    [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    I've been wondering about this one lately. I know Standstill is "teh bombs" or whatever, but after thinking about it a bit I think something like 90% of that cards value derives from your opponent playing badly against it. Sort of like Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven getting a huge boost in playability because most people can't make good piles.

    So I've come up with a list of pros and cons between Standstill and Ancestral Visions.

    Standstill
    Pros
    - Causes opponents to play badly
    - Lets decks that run it exploit it
    - Draws 3 cards for two mana

    Cons
    - Dependent on opponent to work
    - Sorcery speed
    - Can't be played unless board position is neutral/in your favor
    - Sometimes has to be sideboarded out
    - Sometimes your opponent gets to draw

    Ancestral Visions
    Pros
    - Draws 3 cards for one mana
    - Not dependent on opponent
    - You're freshly untapped when you draw
    - Takes you from zero to four cards in hand (with draw step)
    - Can be played whenever you draw it, regardless of board position
    - Never needs to be boarded out
    - Can be played on turn 1
    - Insane turn 1 play vs. discard/disruption/sui-type decks.

    Cons
    - Takes four turns to resolve
    - Not an immediate board changer
    - Sorcery speed

    So looking at the two cards, the only thing I can see where Standstill really comes out ahead is your opponent playing badly and being scared of you drawing three cards. Which is just stupid considering some of the other two mana card advantage engines around like Dark Confidant and Life from the Loam which both provide a lot more CA than Standstill.

    The big argument against Visions is that if you draw it late or on an empty hand, it takes forever to have an impact, or if you're not winning, it does nothing to immediately change that. This is true, but it also ignores the point that Standstill is even LESS useful in those situations. You're facing down a random creature and topdeck Standstill, it does less than nothing since casting it would be a disadvantage to you. Visions at least promises you cards if you can survive long enough.

    Also, from what I've seen, it seems like Standstill is either broken immediately by the opponent or they wait until you get seven cards in hand EOT and then pop it so it's just a "draw three, discard three" filtering spell. Even when Standstill works perfectly, you still wait about 3 turns to draw from it, which is pretty much the same as Visions except Visions costs half as much.

    I know the "well, I had standstill and some factories/decree and won" argument, but really, couldn't you just suspend a Visions then still beat face with factory/decree while also doing OTHER things relevant to winning the game? It's not like Standstill is what won you the game in the previous situation, it was the Factories and Decree.

    Also, given Landstill's lack of good t1 plays (barring versions with Thoughtseize), how is getting off a draw 3 on t1 40% of the time not a good idea? Just wondering if anyone else has thoughts about this.
    Last edited by morgan_coke; 01-29-2009 at 01:41 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Another "Con" of Visions is that it is one of the best targets for Stifle/Trickbind.
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  3. #3

    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Quote Originally Posted by FredMaster View Post
    Another "Con" of Visions is that it is one of the best targets for Stifle/Trickbind.
    Yes, you're right. Another "Con" of both is that they can be countered by Counterspell and Force of Will. And Counterbalance if the correct cc is on top of the opponents' library.

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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Yes, you're right. Another "Con" of both is that they can be countered by Counterspell and Force of Will. And Counterbalance if the correct cc is on top of the opponents' library.
    Maybe this was sarcasm,
    but indeed Ancestral Vision gets countered by CB with a Land on top, which occurs even blind with a probability of ~35%.

    Also, you have 4 Turns to react and save a Counterspell for AV.

    Both are major disadvantages.
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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Standstill is often boarded out? Why? Your landstill. You should be able to be broken under standstill better than any deck in the format. Also, no reason to neuter your draw engine by boarding it out.
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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterC View Post
    Also, you have 4 Turns to react and save a Counterspell for AV.
    I don't think actively saving Countermagic for AV is the correct play if it means not countering spells during turns 1-3. If the AV player isn't playing anything during that time period, then by all means, but if the AV player is dropping retarded stuff on turn 1-3, then you've effectively taken yourself out the game.

  7. #7

    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    yes, that was sarcasm. "but it gets removed or countered by x" isn't a reason to not run any card, because there is an answer for every card ever created. Even Obliterate loses to Time Stop.

    Standstill gets boarded out in the mirror and vs. white control to name two decks off the top of my head. Isn't it also often pulled vs. vial based decks since you can't play it with vs. vial or a negative board position? I should probably change that to "sometimes".

  8. #8

    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    yes, that was sarcasm. "but it gets removed or countered by x" isn't a reason to not run any card, because there is an answer for every card ever created. Even Obliterate loses to Time Stop.
    No, it was valid. When comparing two cards, you have to assess how hard they are to deal with. Ancestral Visions is easier to deal with than Standstill because it's stopped by a commonly played card, Stifle. Standstill has no fear of Stifle.

    Con - Ancestral Visions is stopped by Stifle.

  9. #9
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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Standstill is easier to deal with than Ancestral Visions because it's unplayable if your opponent has a commonly played card type, creature.

    seriously wtf.
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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
    Standstill is easier to deal with than Ancestral Visions because it's unplayable if your opponent has a commonly played card type, creature.

    seriously wtf.
    When you have manlands, Decree of Justice or Elspeth (and maybe Humility) it doesn't matter if your opponent has a creature.

  11. #11

    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Standstill is countered by a commonly played card - Spell Snare. Ancestral Visions has no fear of Spell Snare.

    Con - Standstill is stopped by Spell Snare.

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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    I play AV (although not in Landstill).


    A slight drawback of AV is that opponents can see it coming and save countermagia. You're playing on turn 1 what your opponent has until turn 4 to answer. Also, you can't drop it opportunistically the way that Standstill is often played. No matter when you suspend AV, you can't guarantee that in four turns your opponent will be tapped out.

    It's at least worth mentioning that AV gets countered by Stifle, Meddling Mage, Standstill, and Counterbalance, which are mostly weak or complete junk cards in the Landstill matchup, and now they go basically 2:1 or better, especially when you have under its Pros "Insane turn 1 play vs. discard/disruption/sui-type decks"

    Although it's not worth dwelling on "Well, X isn't good because it can be countered," when analyzing a card on the whole, since all cards are affected equally by that, it's very important to this debate that when you cast Standstill, you know all the variables and can guarantee drawing 3 cards. The three extra turns digging for answers (and untapping) and the ability to answer AV effectively with things other than direct countermagic makes it less reliable.




    And why do you have Con - Sorcery Speed under both? Kinda silly.

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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Standstill punishes your opponent even if they don't break it.
    It gives you turns, cards and land drops and gets you to the late game, where your deck is better than your opponent's one since you're playing control.
    Vision "merely" draws you three.
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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Vision also sucks on about turn eight when you're both in topdeck mode and card draw will seal you the game. Standstill here, however, wins.

    It's also worth noting that in a Landstill-versus-Landstill scenario, Standstill is possibly actually stronger than Ancestral Visions if one deck packs each. Because it's almost always safe to drop a Standstill when your opponent has a Visions suspended.

    All this said, I'd totally run both if not for the fact that they don't operate well in tandem and I kept topdecking Standstills while I had a visions suspended.

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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    I think Visions has a place in Legacy. I do not think that place is as a replacement for Standstill.

    The Stifle/Counter argument carries weight here because of it's suspend. Knowing what your opponent is going to do is huge. You don't know when Standstill is going to come down, so it's always a threat and you always have to keep it in mind and take it into account. It's like Daze, it affects how your opponent plays.

    AV is much easier to be prepared for, since you know when you have to leave counter/stifle mana open.
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  16. #16

    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Tacosnape,

    I'm not sure Standstill is better in that situation. AV gives your opponent notice that in four turns you're going to draw three cards no matter what they do (I mean "do" in this sense in the actions they take like playing or holding cards way, not the counterspell way). Standstill says that you're not going to be casting anything for the forseeable future and they get to decide when and how you draw your three cards so it's of the least benefit to you and the most benefit to them.

    Standstill is at it's absolute best when you've got a positive board state. i.e., when you're already winning. It's not a card you can play if you're behind. That's the literal definition of a "win-more" card.

    I get the arguments about how your opponent has time to prepare for AV to resolve, but that strikes me as silly given how you can ALWAYS suspend AV, but there are so many times when you CAN'T play Standstill.

    Standstill is an opponent skill card. That means its best against bad players and worst against good ones. Against good players you want every edge you can get. Playing cards that become less good in that situation seems like a disadvantage.

    EDIT: Times you can't play Standstill
    vs. a losing board position.
    If deed or e.e. is on the board.
    If the opponent has a crucible out
    vs. Ichorid
    vs. decks with DoJ
    If a Wickerbough Elder or Viridian Zealot or some such is out
    If a Vial is in play.

    Actually, a lot of those are too situational. Reduce to Deed, E.E. and Vial.

  17. #17

    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Ok, so why don't you just run Ancestral Visions, and the rest of us will keep running Standstills. You're obviously extremely biased to run Ancestral Visions for some reason even though it seems like everybody is in agreement that waiting 4 turns to draw your cards is a death sentence in Legacy. This entire thread is pretty pointless because you don't seem to be changing your mind on the subject after tons of posts, and I don't think anybody is going to be swayed to play Ancestral Visions instead because it is almost definitely awful in a deck where you either need more turns to set up while they think about breaking Standstill, or you'll gladly take the cards immediately and use them to survive to the late game.

  18. #18
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    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    In MUC, AV works quite well. In Landstill, Standstill works quite well. I don't understand why things can't remain as they are.

  19. #19

    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Standstill is countered by a commonly played card - Spell Snare. Ancestral Visions has no fear of Spell Snare.

    Con - Standstill is stopped by Spell Snare.
    I know you're being sarcastic here, but you're not disproving my point. That Standstill is stopped by Spell Snare is a legitimate knock against it.

  20. #20

    Re: [Discussion] Standstill vs. Ancestral Visions

    Both are steller cards. Those of you knocking on Visions as a bad card don't know what you're talking about. Visions is a bomb in any deck that plays control but doesn't play manlands.

    I'm not sure they're comparable though for the four reasons below.

    Cons:
    Ancestral Visions makes for a horrible topdeck, and can't really be chained together one after another.

    Standstill can't help you if you're already losing.

    Standstill requires the deck to be built around it and still can suck in the mirror matchup. If your deck can't support manlands and wastelands, you shouldn't be playing standstill.

    Pros:

    Standstills can and often are chained together one after another to gain a massive card advantage on your opponent. Example, your opponent finally cracks the standstill and you Force whatever he tries to resolve. The next turn, you play out a bunch of cards and then replay another Standstill.

    P.S: I think the better question is Ancestral Visions vs. Fact or Fiction. As both are cards that work well in the same exact decks. And I think the best solution is to play both like MUC does.

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