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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Burn

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    [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Burn News: October 19th 2014: Congrats to Jim Davis who made Top 16 at SCG Worcester with http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=74784


    One of the longest running strategies in Legacy is to just "burn" the opponent out, literally casting burn in Lightning Bolt & variants of 1 cast 3 damage spells, or other similarly effective cards. On top of that, the mono red deck is one of the cheapest strategies you can play that has had the level of success it's achieved in the format.

    1) Playing Burn
    2) Successful decklists & trends
    3) Card Choices
    3a) Maindeck
    3b) Sideboard
    4) Price Guide
    5) Awesome Links
    6) Previous Burn thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...7811-Deck-Burn special thanks to Peter_Rotten
    7) 20 Match ups


    1) Playing Burn:
    Overall strategy Your ultimate goal, like any deck, is to win the match, more specifically with burn, it's to just go all out aggressive, burn the opponent down from 20 to 0 as fast as possible, whether the opponent is playing combo, aggro, control or whatever, you are pushing to win the game as fast as possible and take the win before they do anything relevant, the hardest match up's will be those that are just faster than you, mostly being combo decks, while most other match up's will just be a race through their own clock for lethal and/or their disruption when they have it.

    Starting hand Mostly you'll be looking for hands that are mostly burn and a couple lands, the strategy for the deck is just all out aggression, so as long as you're doing something you're doing your job, if you mulligan it will almost always be based on the land count, or lack there of.

    Turns 1-2 You'll want to start out with a creature drop if you have it, specifically Goblin Guide since over the course of turns it has the potential to do 2 damage over and over again, depending on the strategy you're going against, if it keeps connecting to the opponent each turn. Grim Lavamancer also has the potential to do 2 damage recurring, however it will cost 1 per each activation, but does not require an attack step. After that you'll want to burn your Lava Spikes & Flame Rifts since they can only hit the opponent anyway. Rift Bolt also takes a turn to hit when you suspend it, so it's another you'll want to cast earlier.

    Turn's 3 & later This is more where you'll cast your other burn spells Lightning Bolt & Chain Lightning because you may want it as removal against some creatures, while Price of Progress may do more damage because the more non basics the opponent has in play, the more damage it can hit for. Sulfuric Vortex, especially against slower decks, will also come down, with the potential to finish them off with a "soft lock" that does 2 damage every one of their upkeeps, & the ability to prevent lifegain against stuff like Baterskull as an example, so they don't catch up & you can finish them off with burn when they're stuck at low life from your earlier aggression. Your other "finisher" would be Fireblast since once they are at 4 or less life, you can just finish them off right there for "free" at the cost of 2 mountains, preventing them from getting to another turn in a chance to turn the game around by just killing them right there. Without disruption, your average damage will be lethal, 20 damage, on turn 4.

    "Goldfishing" / "Practicing" Similar to a combo deck, you can get a basic feel for the deck even just by playing solitaire, sitting & playing it out while counting to 20, trying to do that much damage as fast as you can & seeing what turn you're on when you put out that much. In doing so, you'll see that while the average turn is 4, sometimes you can even do enough damage on turn 3, usually with the help of Fireblast or a turn 1 Goblin Guide that does 2 damage per turn, over the course of each attack phase. This, however, is just a base, as playing against an actual opponent they will likely have some interactions with you, many of which may come down to whether or not to burn a creature, burn the opponent, or even save it for a turn before committing.

    Additional notes: by Justin
    When playing Burn, you don't always want to aim every spell at the opponent's dome. There are certain creatures that you will want to kill, especially if it's turn one and you are on the draw. A turn one Goblin Lackey, for example, is something that you will usually want to get off the board. You also want to kill early creatures from aggressive decks that can outrace you, including the mirror-match, UR Burn, and WR Sligh. If an opponent drops an early Goblin Guide, Delver of Secrets, Grim Lavamancer, or Steppe Lynx, you will need to kill those creature. You also need to be prepared to take out creatures that can gain life against you, such as Deathrite Shaman. Sometimes you have no choice but to throw a Fireblast at a Germ token with Batterskull. So playing this deck is not just about goldfishing to do 20 damage to the opponents dome. You need to realize when to adjust your strategy and interact with your opponent's board.

    On the question of which bolt spells to cast first, I usually favor Rift Bolt. The reason is that you have to wait a turn to cast it for R, so it's best to cast them early. When your strategy is to do 20 damage ASAP, I would value the one-drops in this order: Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Chain Lighting, and Lighting Bolt. When you are concerned about removing your opponent's creatures this might change to: Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Lava Spike, Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lightning Bolt.

    Fireblast has been a long time staple in red aggro strategies, while it costs 6, it's almost always casted with it's alternate casting cost as a "finisher" when the opponent is low enough for it to be lethal

    History: Burn, mono red, etc, these full aggression strategies have been a long time deck in Magic for years, but the breakout for burn strategies in recent Legacy would be 2011, followed by 2012 which had even more success.

    2) Successful decklists & trends: from here http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/decklists/ & http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/for...=Legacy&page=1
    2009:
    9th place - David Kilmartin - SCG Boston (187 players)
    15th place - Gene Richtsmeier - SCG St Louis (128 players)

    2010:
    29th place - Patrick Sullivan - GP Columbus (1,397 players)
    2nd place - Kyle Miller - SCG Denver (125 players)

    2011:
    6th place - David Menor Gutierrez - Open City of Bridges, Spain (171 players)
    5th place - Patrick Sullivan - SCG Los Angeles (216 players)
    7th place - Michele Salardi - Legnano-MLL#8 (116 players)
    1st place - Manuel Gomez - LCL Lliga Catalana de Legacy 4, Abril, inGenio (118 players)
    14th place - Iain Bartolomei - SCG Denver (117 players)
    15th place - Jacob Shapiro - SCG Cincinnati (228 players)
    8th place - Luisma Augusto - Eternal Weekend 2011 Legacy Main Event (293 players)
    8th place - Samuel Davis - SCG Kansas (156 players)
    8th place - Austin Yost - SCG Las Vegas (168 players)

    2012:
    1st place - Austin Yost - SCG Washington (234 players)
    1st place - James Allen - SCG Richmond (118 players)
    11th place - Cary Duncan - SCG Cincinnati (297 players)
    2nd place - Anthony Phaneuf SCG Memphis (94 players)
    13th place - Lou Stefanovic - SCG Tampa (141 players)
    16th place - Jeremy Dunn - SCG Tampa (141 players)
    11th place - Issac Sears - SCG Sacramento (116 players)
    5th place - Burt Hamernick - SCG Des Moines (148 players)
    7th place - Niklas Rauterberg - Legacy Event in Maintal (127 players)
    5th place - Robert Swiecki - Magiccardmarket 5th anniversary tournament (131 players)
    15th place - James Syed - SCG Worchester (213 players)
    32nd place - Lou Stefanovic - SCG Worchester (213 players)
    30th place - Burt Hamernick - SCG Indianapolis (313 players)
    14th place - Jay Shield - SCG Washington DC (350 players)
    19th place - Charles R Dyk - 2012 Gen Con Legacy Championship (350 players)
    30th place - Charles Fitzgerald - 2012 Gen Con Legacy Championship (350 players)
    3rd place - Patrick Sullivan - SCG Los Angeles (235 players)
    8th place - Ali Aintrazi - SCG Invitational Atlanta (311 players)
    21st place - Joel Gibson - SCG Dallas (175 players)
    9th place - Jacob Dobbs - SCG Los Angeles (269 players)

    2013:
    31st place - Michael Shelkofsky - SCG Atlanta (230 players)
    16th place - Jacob Harris - SCG Cincinnati (279 players)
    12th place - Jacob Dobbs - SCG Las Vegas (142 players)
    3rd place - Doug Honeycutt - SCG Atlanta (349 players)
    16th place - Jeremy Maciolek - SCG Atlanta (349 players)
    22nd place - Jacob Pettie - Tales of Tales of Adventure - Coopersburg, PA (186 plyers)

    2014:
    12th place - Hugo Villamor - SCG Orlando (239 players)
    5th place - Eddie Chalecki - LCL 2014, March (121 players) Deathburn
    6th place - Joey Lively - SCG Dallas (308 players)
    4th place - Gentile Simone - Evil 10, Padova, Tarmogeddon 9 (205 players)
    14th place - Jon Thiel - SCG Indianapolis (346 players)
    14th place - Lou Stefanovic - SCG Providence (302 players)
    16th place - Jamie Syed - SCG Providence (302 players)
    9th place - John Ware - SCG Las Vegas (232 players)
    1st place - Bryan Cambidge - SCG Las Vegas (232 players)
    9th place - Forrest Ashmore - SCG Portland (296 players)
    4th place - Charlie Mitchell - SCG Worcester (290 players)
    7th place - Brian Cooper - SCG Kansas City (256 players)
    23rd place - Kevin Stanley - SCG Kansas City (256 players)
    29th place - Logan Martin - SCG Kansas City (256 players)
    13th place - Matthew Long - Tales of Adventure Eternal Extravaganza (266 players)
    8th place - Alex Johnson - SCG Syracuse (230 players)
    11th place - Ben Burchett - SCG Washington DC (285 players)
    8th place - Robert Wright - SCG Atlanta (263 players)
    8th place - Jackson Smith - SCG Indianapolis (260 players)
    9th place - Jim Davis - SCG Worcester (225 players)

    One of the most common creatures to see in a burn deck because of it's ability to recur 2 damage

    3) Card choices:

    3a) Maindeck: (most common in recent trends in bold)
    Creature:
    Grim Lavamancer Repeatable 2 damage based on 1 mana & 2 cards in graveyard, overall the best "pinger" available for the deck
    Goblin Guide 2/2 with haste, overall the best 1 drop attacker for the deck
    Eidolon of the Great Revel A newer staple as of recent, Pyrostatic Pillar on legs
    Keldon Marauders 3/3 for 2 with vanishing, that does 1 damage coming into play & leaving play. Though the most recent lists have gone to more straight burn
    Hellspark Elemental 3/1 for 2 haste trample, can be replayed from the graveyard for 2. Though the most recent lists have gone to more straight burn
    Vexing Devil less common As most recent lists run more straight burn
    Figure of Destiny less common As most recent lists run more straight burn

    Instant:
    Fireblast 4 damage for "free" at the cost of 2 mountains, a staple for Legacy burn decks as a "finisher"
    Lightning Bolt 3 damage for 1 mana, a staple for Legacy burn decks
    Price of Progress Damage based on non basic lands, as most Legacy decks run more non basics, a Legacy burn staple
    Searing Blaze Seen more commonly lately
    Searing Blood Not as common as Searing Blaze but also in some lists

    Sorcery:
    Rift Bolt 3 damage to any target, cast for 3, or suspend for 1
    Chain Lightning 3 damage to any target
    Lava Spike 3 damage targeting players
    Flame Rift 4 damage against all players

    Other:
    Sulfuric Vortex 2 damage on upkeep, stops lifegain

    Land: (Average around 20 lands, anywhere from 8-12 fetchlands)
    Mountain
    Bloodstained Mire Wooded Foothills Scalding Tarn Arid Mesa Fetchlands, Grim Lavamancer fuel
    Barbarian Ring (2 in some lists) 2 damage with threshold

    Sulfuric Vortex has been in most lists, though more recently, it's been more in the maindeck than the sideboard

    3b) Sideboard:
    ~Graveyard hate:
    Tormod's Crypt 0 cast
    Relic of Progenitus Cantrips
    Faerie Macabre "Uncounterable"
    Leyline of the Void Starts in play
    Grafdigger's Cage Also affects stuff from the library
    Surgical Extraction "Free" to cast, removes all copies
    ~Blue hate:
    Vexing Shusher Uncounterable & makes other spells so
    Pyroblast Destroy blue permanent, counter blue spell
    Red Elemental Blast Destroy blue permanent, counter blue spell
    Burnout Counter blue instant, draw a card next upkeep
    Volcanic Fallout 2 damage to creatures, uncounterable
    ~Artifact hate:
    Smash to Smithereens Destroy artifact, do 3 damage
    Shattering Spree Can hit multiple artifacts
    ~Sweepers:
    Pyroclasm 2 damage to all creatures
    Ratchet Bomb Destroys based on converted mana cost
    Flamebreak 3 damage to all creatures, 3 players
    Pyrokinesis 4 damage divided, with alternate casting cost
    ~Burn:
    Pyrostatic Pillar Good against cheap, fast decks
    Searing Blaze 3 damage to creature & player, with Landfall
    Sulfuric Vortex 2 damage on upkeep, anti life gain
    ~Other:
    Pithing Needle Affects activated, non mana abilities
    Phyrexian Revoker "Pithing needle" with legs
    Reverberate Copy an instant, sorcery spell
    Reroute Retarget an activated ability
    Phyrexian Metamorph Copy an artifact or creature
    Ensnaring Bridge Especially against Show and Tell decks
    Mindbreak Trap Usually against combo decks

    Fetchlands have been a part of burn strategies as fuel that run Grim Lavamancer

    4) Price guide of more known burn cards: As of March 2013 (For the most current prices, click on the link of each card) High-Mid-Low according to http://magiccards.info/ & http://magic.tcgplayer.com/all_magic_sets.asp
    $20.00 to $50.00:
    Bloodstained Mire $42.97 $37.29 $31.25
    Wooded Foothills $41.18 $34.69 $29.47
    Scalding Tarn $44.39 $34.80 $30.95
    Arid Mesa $39.98 $24.57 $20.89

    $10.00 to $20.00:
    Chain Lightning $16.03 $13.15 $10.87

    $5.00 to $10.00:
    Goblin Guide $10.99 $7.02 $4.92
    Vexing Devil $8.95 $7.54 $6.20

    $2.00 to $5.00:
    Price of Progress $4.99 $3.80 $2.85
    Lava Spike $4.35 $3.56 $2.84
    Sulfuric Vortex $6.17 $4.08 $3.24

    $1.00 to $2.00:
    Grim Lavamancer $2.97 $1.84 $0.95
    Hellspark Elemental $2.50 $1.67 $1.04
    Rift Bolt $2.88 $1.93 $1.20
    Flame Rift $2.05 $1.30 $0.95

    $1.00 or less average:
    Keldon Marauders $0.74 $0.36 $0.20
    Fireblast $1.65 $0.98 $0.67
    Lightning Bolt $1.63 $0.95 $0.74
    Mountain $129.98(Guru) $6.09(Unhinged) $5.00(Unglued) $3.99(Beta) $0.75(Zendikar) $0.03(Basic)


    5) Awesome Links: In relation to Burn & Legacy
    Price trends of Singles:
    http://www.mtgprice.com/sets/4th_Edition/Lightning_Bolt

    Burn articles/reports/etc:
    2014:
    http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Counters.html Burn against Counters (Patrick Sullivan)
    2013:
    http://www.essentialmagic.com/em2/Do...318&hdocpage=1 Essentialmagic.com
    http://blog.mtgdeals.com/flongmore/i...-time-to-burn/ Burn article, MTGdeals (Feline Longmore)

    2012:
    http://starcitygames.com/events/cove...derson_ru.html Feature match, Burn in the top 8, SCG Invitational Atlanta (Ali Aintrazi)
    http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ek---Burn.html Article, after the two SCG 1st place wins (Patrick Sullivan)
    http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...f_vs_zac_.html Feature match, Burn in the finals, SCG Memphis (Anthony Phoneuf)
    http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._vs_james.html Feature match, Burn in the finals, SCG Richmond (James Allen)
    http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._josh_cho.html Feature match, Burn in the finals, SCG Washington (Austin Yost)

    2011:
    http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...eport-5th.html Article, playing burn (Patrick Sullivan)

    Burn decklist sources:
    Starcitygames.com Burn
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tip...&format=Legacy

    Legacy metagame:
    http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/decklists/
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/for...=Legacy&page=1
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...y(started-2012)

    6) The previous Burn thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...7811-Deck-Burn & special thanks to Peter_Rotten as well as everyone else that participated in the thread since it's creation in 2007.
    Last edited by feline; 10-21-2014 at 03:37 AM. Reason: Update
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
    Past Standard Tooth & Nail(2005) Boros deck wins(06) Dragonstorm(07)
    Primers http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?33551 High Tide Belcher Zoo Pox Stax Reanimator Burn
    Decks/Prices
    Legacy http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24023
    Legacy under $500 http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25253
    Follow on Twitter @FelineLongmore

  2. #2
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    7) Match ups
    01) RUG (Aggro, Moderate playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
    They are a tempo based aggro deck, using Nimble Mongoose Tarmogoyf & Delver of Secrets backed up by counterspells and a little burn in the form of Lightning bolt & sometimes Forked bolt or Chain Lightning. For the most part the match up will just be a race.

    02) Esperblade (Control, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
    They are a control type deck, using counterspells & discard as disruption, along with card advantage. Their potential kill conditions will be Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull, Snapcaster Mage. Batterskull specifically will set you back as it gives them a 4/4 Lifelinker that doesn't tap to attack, so if they net it with a Stoneforge Mystic, don't let it put a Batterskull into play unless they're low enough to burn out before that happens.

    03) UW Control variants (Control, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
    They are a control deck with counterspells & some removal, they also have the option of Counterbalance Sensei's Divining Top to potentially counter your spells. Their kill conditions will either be Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Entreat the Angels, Stoneforge Mystic, Vendilion Clique and/or Snapcaster Mage & in some lists, Helm of Obedience + Rest in Peace combo.

    04) BUG aggro (Aggro, Moderate playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
    They are an aggro deck, backed up by counterspells/discard & some removal, including Abrupt Decay, their kill conditions will be Delver of Secrets Deathrite Shaman Tarmogoyf & possibly Tombstalker. Deathrite Shaman has the potential for life gain as well as doing damage to your life total or producing mana, while the remaining creatures are more basic. More midrange strategies will be a little slower, & possibly even running Dark Confidant, Shardless Agent & Ancestral Vision. For the most part this will be a race between both sides as to who hits their lethal first.

    05) BUG control (Control, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
    They are a control deck with counterspells, discard & removal, as well as the planeswalkers Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, they also usually run Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman as well as the possibility of Vendilion Clique. Again, watch out for Deathrite Shaman as it has the potential for life gain to set back your burn strategy.

    06) Jund (Aggro, Moderate playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
    They are an aggro strategy backed up by burn & card advantage, possibly some discard in the form of Thoughtseize / Inquisition of Kozilek. Their card advantage will come from Hymn to Tourach Dark Confidant & Bloodbraid Elf, as well as Sylvan Library & Punishing Fire, though since you are a burn strategy, their Library will not net them many cards & the Punishing Fire combo will only affect your creatures for the most part. They also run Deathrite Shaman so watch out for potential life gain. For the most part it will be a race on both sides as to who can get to their lethal first, however they have the potential for card advantage the longer the game goes on so try to kill them earlier.

    07) Dredge (Combo, Light playtesting required)
    They are an aggressive combo deck that will work off of their graveyard to swarm you, Dredging cards to their graveyard by drawing them & milling themselves, while putting Ichorid & Narcomeba into pay, while triggering 2/2 zombie tokens off of Bridge from Below. Casting Cabal Therapy and Dread Return from their graveyard for their flashback costs.

    08) Maverick (Aggro, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
    They are an aggro deck with lots of disruptive creatures, the ones to watch out for that will affect you are Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, which will make your non creature spells cost 1 more, Scavenging Ooze because it can gain them life & grow, Gaddock Teeg because it can prevent you from casting Fireblast, & Stoneforge Mystic because it can net a Batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte. For the most part it will be a race between both sides as to who can get to their lethal first, though the longer the game goes the better chance they have to stabilize, throug their lifegain and large arsenal of creatures, so try to win earlier than later.

    09) Ad Nauseam Storm decks (Combo, Light playtesting required)
    They are a fast combo deck that will try to finish you off with either lethal storm Trendrils of Agony or an early Empty the Warrens for enough 1/1's to kill you faster than you can kill them. For the most part this is just a race as to who gets to their lethal first, though they are usually faster.

    10) High Tide (Combo, Light playtesting required)
    They are a slower combo deck that will likely wait until their last turn before your lethal to go off, then cast a complicated set of spells that include card draw, untap effects & High Tides. For the most part this is just a race as to who gets to their lethal first, though they will never go off before their turn 3. One thing to note is if you're getting low on burn spells, having untapped mountains in play when they Time Spiral can still get you to lethal if they don't draw into any counterspells after a resolved Spiral.

    11) UR Delver (Aggro, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
    They are an aggro deck with counterspells & burn, running a similar strategy as your own, but also running blue for card draw & counters. For the most part this match will mostly be a race between the 2 decks, though winning faster is optimal since they have the ability to draw more cards, as well as net card advantage with things like Snapcaster Mage.

    12) Show and Tell variants (Combo, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
    They are a combo deck that will try to cheat a bomb into play by resolving Show and Tell or Sneak Attack to put Griselbrand / Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into play and finish you off, Griselbrand has lifelink & the potential to draw 7 cards, though at the cost of 7 life, while Emrakul will make you sacrifice 6 permanents if it gets to swing at you during an attack phase. They will likely be faster than you, however preventing them from having too much life can stop them from drawing any cards off of the Griselbrand.

    13) Reanimator (Combo, Light playtesting required)
    They are a combo deck that will cheat a bomb into play from the graveyard. Usually Griselbrand Iona, Shield of Emeria as their main targets. If you burn them down fast enough then they might not even be able to cast Reanimate since they lose life off of reanimating, while drawing cards off of Griselbrand are also prevented if their life is low enough. Aside from that, it is just a race as to who gets to their lethal first.

    14) Elves (Combo, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
    They are a tribal combo/aggro type deck, though more combo related as their key cards will be Glimpse of Nature Natural Order & possibly Green Sun's Zenith into Craterhoof Behemoth or Regal Force. Try to keep them off of too many elves, but at the same time focus on burning them down before they can have a huge turn. They also may run Deathrite Shaman so watch out for the potential life gain from it at +2 per turn. In the end it will be a race while you may be able to slow them down since alot of what they push usually involves getting out a number of elves.

    15) Merfolk (Aggro, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
    They are a tribal aggro deck that is backed up by disruption in the form of counterspells, as well as some card draw. They have the potential to put out alot in one turn when the previous they may have only had 1 or 2 merfolk in play, because they can Vial one into play at the end of your turn, then vial another one in on their turn, as well as playing another one, then activating a Mutavault & swinging for huge amounts where as before it was significantly less. Other than that it's mostly just creatures coming down with counterspell/card draw back up that will be a race to burn them out before they can get you for lethal.

    16) Goblins (Aggro, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
    They are a tribal aggro deck with a focus on card advantage & the ability to swarm you with tons of goblins the longer the game goes on, though their earlier plays will be less significant if you prevent turn 1 Goblin Lackeys from connecting with you, preventing them from dropping goblins into play early for free. Aside from that it's just a race, burn them out before they get to the point of swinging with enough goblins to kill you.

    17) Zombies (Aggro, Light playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
    They are an aggro deck that takes advantage of Cabal Therapy Goblin Bombardment & Carrion Feeder with stuff like Gravecrawler Bloodghast & Lingering Souls. They also run disruption in the form of Tidehollow Sculler & Thoughtseize. They also may run Deathrite Shaman which can set back your burn with it's lifegain. In the end it will be a race through their recurring creatures & disruption to kill them before they overwhelm you.

    18) Belcher (Combo, Light playtesting recommended)
    They are an all in combo deck that will likely go off 1st turn, setting out an army of 1/1's or a Goblin Charbelcher that will hit you for lethal. It is an all out race on both sides, but they will likely be faster than you, & you won't likely even know that they're playing belcher until they go off.

    19) 12 post (Ramp/Combo, Light playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
    They are a ramp deck with combo elements. Putting out Cloudpost as many times as they can, in order to cast huge Eldrazi creatures like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Kozilek, Butcher of Truth & Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. They will also have access to Primeval Titam & Show and Tell. Since you're playing burn, it is also worth noting they have access to Glimmerpost which can gain them life, buying them another turn to cast a creature & start trying to stabilize. In the end it will be a race to kill them before they get out a huge creature & start swinging at you.

    20) Burn The mirror match! (Moderate playtesting recommended)
    If a mirror match happens, being on the play -vs- being on the draw can make the difference, whether it's just killing them faster before they can take you out, or just card advantage if you keep going back and forth into a top deck mode, since Flame Rift hits both sides, try to cast it last or as a finisher since you'll be burning yourself, essentially paying 2 to take yourself down for 4 which will help them in their strategy as well as help you, but you're paying the mana and they are not. Also try to get creatures out as much as you can if you're running them, posing as many threats as you can to put them on the defensive
    Last edited by feline; 03-31-2014 at 11:07 AM. Reason: Update
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
    Past Standard Tooth & Nail(2005) Boros deck wins(06) Dragonstorm(07)
    Primers http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?33551 High Tide Belcher Zoo Pox Stax Reanimator Burn
    Decks/Prices
    Legacy http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24023
    Legacy under $500 http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25253
    Follow on Twitter @FelineLongmore

  3. #3

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    I'll add a few things about playing Burn.

    1) When playing Burn, you don't always want to aim every spell at the opponent's dome. There are certain creatures that you will want to kill, especially if it's turn one and you are on the draw. A turn one Goblin Lackey, for example, is something that you will usually want to get off the board. You also want to kill early creatures from aggressive decks that can outrace you, including the mirror-match, UR Burn, and WR Sligh. If an opponent drops an early Goblin Guide, Delver of Secrets, Grim Lavamancer, or Steppe Lynx, you will need to kill those creature. You also need to be prepared to take out creatures that can gain life against you, such as Deathrite Shaman. Sometimes you have no choice but to throw a Fireblast at a Germ token with Batterskull. So playing this deck is not just about goldfishing to do 20 damage to the opponents dome. You need to realize when to adjust your strategy and interact with your opponent's board.

    2) On the question of which bolt spells to cast first, I usually favor Rift Bolt. The reason is that you have to wait a turn to cast it for R, so it's best to cast them early. When your strategy is to do 20 damage ASAP, I would value the one-drops in this order: Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Rift Bolt, Lava Spike, Chain Lighting, and Lighting Bolt. When you are concerned about removing your opponent's creatures this might change to: Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Lava Spike, Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lightning Bolt.

    3) I would argue that Grim Lavamancer and Fetchlands are optional and not a staple of four in Burn. Lavamancer is great at killing small creatures, but he slows Burn down, especially if your opponent plays spell that can exile cards in your graveyard and take away Lavamaner's "food."

    4) Keldon Marauders is more common that you give it credit for. It's potentially five damage for two mana and is a strong option for decks that don't run Lavamancer.

    5) Hellspark Elemental was becoming quite common in Burn, before the printing of Deathrite Shaman. It's potentially six damage in one card.

    6) I agree that Flame Rift and Sulfuric Vortex are staples, but I don't think that it is mandatory to run four of each. I would say that 2-4 is more appropriate. The "core" cards that require a mandatory four are: Goblin Guide, the four "bolt" spells, Fireblast, and Price of Progress.
    I see more than others do because I know where to look.

  4. #4

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Thank for creating this primer feline. The new primer is great.

    I am really interested in the match ups. Needless to say it's much easier to goldfish than playing an actual match with Burn. Knowing what options Burn have in different match ups is really important. Perhaps you could add a SB Tech/Meta Call section in the match ups. This would give every Burn enthusiast a better idea of the options and potential tricks the deck has.

  5. #5

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Here is some super secret tech:


    Pyromancer's Swath
    Ensnaring Bridge
    Flame Jab


    Swath gives you more damage for all burn spells. Bridge keeps nasty creatures at bay. Jab makes your mountains into burn spells.

    Swath + jab = every spell is at least a lightning bolt.

    Swath + Bridge = Always have empty hand.

    Swaths stack.


    I know how janky it is, but it might be an option if we want to go creatureless.

  6. #6
    Storm Trooper
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Awesome primer! So much information!

  7. #7

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    In Testing, we found Sulfuric Vortex as a 4of Maindeck quite convenient if SneakShow goes for the Show and Tell. On the other hand, Sneak Attack appears to be the preferred path for the deck against Burn.

    Is Runeflare Trap a (SB) consideration against Griselbrand?

  8. #8

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Hi you all. Thanks for the Primer @feline. (My apologies too, my english it is not the best).

    I would like to add some things that i have learned about Burn:

    a. Concept. Three elements define what burn is: (1) Low Cost (near to 1 average casting cost), (2) Efficiency (Core Spells are 3 damage for 1 mana), and (3) Consistency, in (i) mana base and (ii) Aggro concepts like "Guaranteed Damage", "No Lag Damage" and "Virtual Card Advantage".
    For those "Aggro concepts" read http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1317-squ...et-legacy.html

    b. Core Spells. Like @Justin said, nowadays there is a core for Burn: 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning, 4 Lava Spike, 4 Rift Bolt, 4 Fireblast and 4 Price of Progress.
    That is because they have: low cost (1 average casting cost, considering Fireblast as 0), (2) guaranteed damage, no lag and have VCA (except for Price of Progress on VCA), and (3) efficiency (are 3 damage for 1 mana; Fireblast is better than that, and Goblin Guide can do more than 2 and provide us information).

    c. Average casting cost near to 1. Succesfull Burn lists are between 1,26 and 1,46.

    d. Recurring damage. Lists usually need at least 2 cards with recurring damage, for when they turn into top deck mode. Options are: (1) in "guaranteed damage": Sulfuric Vortex and Hellspark Elemental, and (2) non guaranteed damage: Grim Lavamancer, Figure of Destiny and Pyrostatic Pillar.

    d. Reduced personal options. With 28 core spells, 4 meta choices and 17 minimun of lands, that left 11 slots for the player to choose their own strategy. 2 of them shold be recurring damage and 3 could be more lands, which left in fact often 8 slots.

    e. Strategy lines. (1) Damage Race Burn. You can get this reducing as much as you can your average casting cost, and focusing in the "guaranteed damage" and "no lag damage"; (2) Control-proof Burn [My favorite]. One can get this focusing in "Virtual Card Advantage", recurring damage, preventing your opponents gain life, and not damaging yourself (because you are a bit more slow than other agresive decks, so you can't burn yourself). (3) Colored Burn: with all the proper consistencies of burn (because Bump in the Night and Boros Charm), except the mana base, and getting better options for the sideboard.


    e 1. Example of a Damage Race Burn:
    Average casting cost 1,17

    9 Mountain

    3 Wooded Foothills
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Arid Mesa

    4 Vexing Devil
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    3 Keldon Marauders

    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Fireblast
    4 Price of Progress

    4 Flame Rift


    e.2. Example of a Control-proof Burn
    Average casting cost 1,54

    19 Mountain

    2 Barbarian Ring

    3 Hellspark Elemental

    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Fireblast
    4 Price of Progress

    4 Skullcrack
    4 Sulfuric Vortex


    e.3. Finally, an example of a Colored Burn:
    Average casting cost 1,15

    2 Mountain
    3 Plateau
    3 Badlands
    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wooded Foothills

    2 Grim Lavamancer

    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Fireblast

    4 Bump in the Night

    4 Price of Progress/ Hellspark Elemental

    4 Boros Charm
    3 Skullcrack

    Bye
    Last edited by EdsonDettoni; 04-02-2013 at 02:02 AM.

  9. #9

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by wortwelt View Post
    In Testing, we found Sulfuric Vortex as a 4of Maindeck quite convenient if SneakShow goes for the Show and Tell. On the other hand, Sneak Attack appears to be the preferred path for the deck against Burn.

    Is Runeflare Trap a (SB) consideration against Griselbrand?
    Sulfuric Vortex is great, but i've found that maybe 3cc it is too much for burn, considering it is only gun is to burn fast. Like in this list:
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=65739

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post

    3) Card choices:

    3a) Maindeck: (most common in recent trends in bold)

    Instant:
    Thunderous Wrath uncommon
    Here is an interesting list with Thunderous Wrath:

    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=74107

  10. #10
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Hey all,

    So I was looking through my collection and I had a decent number of the cards so I decided to make a Burn deck. Going through it I came across Runeflare Trap. I'm thinking this is a good SB card against blue or storm combo type decks. Both are inclined to draw a lot of cards, and to activate the person only needs to draw two more cards if on their turn, or if they brainstorm on ours.

    I haven't put everything together yet, but I think it's a decent inclusion as a sb card, in the list I was mulling over, I have this over a REB/Pyroblast 3 spot.

  11. #11

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Hey all,

    So I was looking through my collection and I had a decent number of the cards so I decided to make a Burn deck. Going through it I came across Runeflare Trap. I'm thinking this is a good SB card against blue or storm combo type decks. Both are inclined to draw a lot of cards, and to activate the person only needs to draw two more cards if on their turn, or if they brainstorm on ours.

    I haven't put everything together yet, but I think it's a decent inclusion as a sb card, in the list I was mulling over, I have this over a REB/Pyroblast 3 spot.
    I haven't tested it, but I have my doubts about Runeflare trap. I wouldn't board it in against a deck just because it pays Brainstorm. Yes, it sounds awesome if you can resolve it after they've cast a brainstorm, but more often than not it seems like it will be a dead card in your hand. You have to leave a red mana open for it, meaning that you are missing opportunities to cast other (non-instant) spells just to zing them on a Brainstorm that they may or may not have or want to cast. Plus, once the opponent has knowledge that you run Runeflare trap, he will play around it. The trap can hit more spells against storm deck, but I wonder if it's application is too narrow to be a sideboard card. Ad Nauseam actually doesn't draw cards. It just reveals them and puts them into the hand, so the trap isn't good against it. Another problem with trap is that you will almost never hardcast it. If it cost four to hardcast, rather than six, I would give it stronger consideration.
    I see more than others do because I know where to look.

  12. #12
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    I would not recommend Runeflare Trap as it's just not as optimal a burn spell compared to what is out there when looking at the most recent lists especially.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
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  13. #13

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Hi, you all,

    A. I also agree Runeflare Trap it is not a good choice.

    ***
    [Cards]

    B. Returning to Burn, it seems to be a fundamental choice in the archetype: To run Grim Lavamancer, or not.

    (i) The pros for Lavamancer are: (1) recurring damage, and (2) can kill small creatures easily.
    (ii) The cons are: (1) you need to feed him with fetchlands, which decrease consistency, (2) hurting you, and (3) it is not guaranteed damage nor no-lag-damage.

    If you wanna rum Grim Lavamancer, I think the best List it is Something like the Ali Aintrazi list:
    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=49536

    I dont like to play the Lavamancer, because against an aggro list, fetchland damage make easy to kill you; and against a control or combo deck, it is too slow, because the lag.


    C. This is the my list, and I like it a lot:

    19 Mountain

    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Vexing Devil
    3 Hellspark Elemental
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Fireblast
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Skullcrack
    2 Pyrostatic Pillar

    SB
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    3 Shattering Spree
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Pyroclasm


    Card Choices:

    In maindeck,
    1. The obvious Burn Core: 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning, 4 Lava Spike, 4 Rift Bolt, 4 Fireblast and 4 Price of Progress
    2. Personal Options:
    (a) 4 Vexing Devil: The problem of letting choose to your opponent has been discused widely. Also if opponent choose creature, it is no guaranteed damage, nor no-lag damage. But has a real good pro, and is that whichever be the opponent choice, it is a 1cc. If Vexing Devil is in your opening hand, opponent will choose damage, wich is very efective and there is no replace for that; and if is a top deck, opponent will choose creature, wich it is not bad; no more than a blocker or other 1cc card.
    (b) 3 Hellspark Elemental: Recurring damage and surprising haste speed, and 3 (or 6) Guaranteed Damage make him a very good choice. Better than Keldon Marauders, wich deals only 2 damage of that kind. Also, the deck needs exactly 19 mana slots, so that the reason for 3 of them.
    (c) 4 Skullcrack: It is very important ensure your damage, so you need to ad slots for this card or Skullcrack. But 3cc card it is too slow sometimes for burn, and you will need 20-21 mana slots, wich make you worse at topdeck. Also, the instant speed is very important to put presure on your opponent.
    (d) 2 Pyrostatic Pillar: It has recurring damage, and prepare you deck for those awful comobo decks, if you have another 4 combo hate on SB.
    (e) No self-burn: Flame Rift, no Fetclands, no Barbarian Ring. This gives you more consistency, and an extra turn against aggro decks.

    Side Board
    (a) Against combo: you will always loose against them so thats why you have 5 graveyard hate, 6 combo from hand hate (4 Mindbreak Trap and 2 Pyrostatic Pillar, and 3 Pyroclasm to beat those anoying Elves.
    (b) 3 Pyroclasm, are very sweet against Stoneblade, Gobblins, Elves, etc.
    ***

    D. An interesting card that deserves discussion, is Sudden Shock.

  14. #14

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    This is starting to be one sided, moreover the Boros Burn thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...568-Boros-Burn

    But, I have a questión, and I'll thank if you can answer it: Why people dont use Spark Elemental (not Hellspark), instead Vexing devil? Since Spark Elemental is like a another bolt?

  15. #15
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Great primer Feline :)

    I would love for Burn to make a comeback but the meta right now is combo centric. Maybe when fair decks rise again

  16. #16
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Has anyone considered running Genju of the Spires?

    I am considering running it as a trick or just consistent repeating damage, also could be a pretty good blocker.

    Also considering bringing back the Fork for interesting interactions and ways to stop blue decks maindeck.

    My deck for reference:


    4 Fireblast
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Price of Progress

    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Flame Rift
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt

    4 Goblin Guide
    3 Grim Lavamancer

    2 Genju of the Spires
    3 Sulfuric Vortex

    4 Arid Mesa
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    8 Mountain
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Wooded Foothills

    Sideboard:

    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Ingot Chewer
    3 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast

  17. #17

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by JPettie View Post
    Has anyone considered running Genju of the Spires?

    I am considering running it as a trick or just consistent repeating damage, also could be a pretty good blocker.

    Also considering bringing back the Fork for interesting interactions and ways to stop blue decks maindeck.
    I have tried Genju of the Spires. And I have won games with it. But it is too slow, you need 4 mountains to activate it in the same turn you cast it; and likely the only thing you need is another bolt. Maybe as SB, but I dont know man. I prefered Hellspark Elemental.

    Fork is bad. Test it.

  18. #18
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Vexing Devil keeps getting skipped because while it does do 4 damage when it does go off, when it comes into play instead, it's usuallly going to do 0 damage, so it has a drawback, and when that drawback happens, it is a huge one!
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  19. #19

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    Vexing Devil keeps getting skipped because while it does do 4 damage when it does go off, when it comes into play instead, it's usuallly going to do 0 damage, so it has a drawback, and when that drawback happens, it is a huge one!
    Also one very valid drawback with Vexing Devil is that Deathrite shaman can easily get 2 life back from it. I have heard from few of my burn playing mates, that's the reason they have started cutting Keldon Marauders too.

  20. #20
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    It's also one reason Sulfuric Vortex has become only more popular. Literally all the recent successful burn lists are 8 non land permanents, & the rest burn spells (aside from lands themselves), those 2 being the Vortex, & Goblin Guide.
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