[Primer/Deck] Burn

[adrieng]

What about a very slight green splash for crop rotation in side ?
Crop rotation gives you hate against dark depth wasteland+karakas ; hate against B/R reanimator bojuka bog
and against show and tell karakas.
I think it is good side option against our weakest matchups. Just 2 taiga and that's fine. I am a dark depth player and I believe crop is the best hate or a 3 off karakas in side.

[Speedbump]

What about a very slight green splash for crop rotation in side ?
Crop rotation gives you hate against dark depth wasteland+karakas ; hate against B/R reanimator bojuka bog
and against show and tell karakas.
I think it is good side option against our weakest matchups. Just 2 taiga and that's fine. I am a dark depth player and I believe crop is the best hate or a 3 off karakas in side.

Crop Rotation is probably one of the worst suggestions I've seen made for a Burn deck.

Doesn't actively do anything.

[Mr. Safety]

If you're having trouble with S&T or Depths, wouldn't Ensnaring Bridge or Stingscourger be a little more productive? Blood Moon would be decent against Depths as well. Pithing Needle on Griselbrand is good. A green splash for Sylvan Library, Tarmogoyf, Krosan Grip, or Destructive Revelry at least passes the straight face test. I'm all for playing janky stuff like CR in a non-lands deck, but it would be to also support Depths. Taking advantage of the toolbox is cool, but in a critical mass deck like Burn the slots are likely not going to be productive enough. It would be the equivalent of boarding off-color Leylines but having to dedicate more than 4 slots to do it.

[Ronald Deuce]

If you're having trouble with S&T or Depths, wouldn't Ensnaring Bridge or Stingscourger be a little more productive? Blood Moon would be decent against Depths as well. Pithing Needle on Griselbrand is good. A green splash for Sylvan Library, Tarmogoyf, Krosan Grip, or Destructive Revelry at least passes the straight face test. I'm all for playing janky stuff like CR in a non-lands deck, but it would be to also support Depths. Taking advantage of the toolbox is cool, but in a critical mass deck like Burn the slots are likely not going to be productive enough.

I'm inclined to agree. I think it's still going to be a really rough matchup, but I'd think some of those are better options. (As caveats for what I'm about to say, most of my Legacy experience is with Storm, which functions very differently in a large number of ways, and I'm not afraid to be bold in my opinions.) Crop Rotation feels like it would take up a ton of sideboard space, which is almost always a problem. Storm could afford to throw nine cards at Miracles because, frankly, the deck could function adequately with only a ten-card 'board if that matchup didn't exist. Four Crop Rots, a Chasm, and a Bog would force us to make a huge change to our deck's basic functionality for a matchup in which we're already distinctly not favored.

For the sake of argument (and I'm not seriously suggesting this), why wouldn't we splash blue for Chain of Vapor? Still, imo, Storm's most underrated sideboard card, and a one-sided StP against Marit Lage.

Have people still been liking swiftspear with how it seems like the format is swinging back to be more creature focused? or do i have a bad read on how prevalent creatures are right now?

Creatures are still the most efficient way to deal damage in Magic, and scrumming will often set the opponents back more than it would us. I don't see any reason to cut them, though my Burn experience is limited.

[Mr. Safety]

Definitely a rough matchup, and it seems that S&T is gaining in popularity again. I'd be boarding Bridges/Needles for sure, probably at least 2 of each.

[TheLostSon]

(I haven't played in like a year and couldn't find my account details for the source, so I just made a new one..)

So I played a smaller local event, didn't do all that great, but will write up what happened to maybe spark up some discussion.

The Decklist was as follows:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

2 Searing Blood
2 Sulfuric Vortex


Sideboard:

3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Fairie Macabre
3 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Searing Blood
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyrostatic Pillar

I hadn't played in a while, so the Sideboard configuration is basically the average of the last hand full of sucessfull decklists discussed here and on mtgtop8 (3 Smash, 4 Gravehate, 2 Pillar etc.). I thought a moment about bringing something (Karakas) to target Show and Tell, but decided against.


To the matches.
First Round was against Food Chain, which I didn't expect to see (2 peope showed up playing it).
Game 1 I mulliganed down to 5 with the first to hands both having 4 Land and the last one 3. Then I countinued to draw above average numbers of land which was only enough to get him down to 6.
(Note: They can just spend 4 Mana to put an additional counter on Walking Ballista to do two more damage.)

So I had pretty much nothing great against him on the Board.
-2 Sulfuric Vortex
-1 Mountain (pretty sure thats a bad decision; I was a little bummed about the flood and 19 still felt reasonable)
-2 Price of Progress
+3 Exquisite Firecraft
+2 Pyrostatic Pillar
This felt a little loose, but the plan was to get a little bit faster and disrupt his setup with Pillar.

My notes for the second game are sadly incomplete, but I got beaten down by his man plan and didn't get pressure on.
0-1

Second Round was against Esper Deathblade.
Game 1 I had a great hand with a turn 1 Swiftspear and killed him fast with me ending on 14 life.

For Sideboarding I felt like I have time in this matchup so I decided to go a little bigger.

-4 Lava Spike
-1 Rift Bolt
-4 Price of Progress (He was almost always fetching for basics the whole match, so this felt right.)

+ 3 Exquisite Firecraft
+ 3 Smash to Smithereens
+ 2 Searing Blood
+ 1 Sulfuric Vortex

Game 2 he had Swords to Plowshares for my turn 1 Goblin Guide. Then he managed to stick a Jitte to a True Name Nemesis on 7 life with a Batterskull in hand.

Game 3 went pretty much the same. Removal on a turn 1 Goblin Guide and winning with equipment.
I was surprised that he managed to get all his colors without ever fetching for a 2nd dual.
0-2

So at this point I am feeling rather bad about my performance, but decide to play it out to get some more testing in.

Round 3 was againt UR Splinter Twinn.
Game 1 I just have a solid start with a turn 1 Goblin Guide, and the proceed to Searing Blood a Pestermite and kill him rather quickly.

Sideboarding:
-4 Price of Progress
-2 Sulfuric Vortex
+2 Searing Blood
+2 Pyrostatic Pillar
+2 Exquisite Firecraft
The idea is to become a little faster to race, interact with his creatures and discupt his cantrips with Pillar.

Game 2 I have a start without a creature and drop a turn 2 Pillar.
He has sided in some True Name Nemesis, which starts chipping away at my life total while I reduce his.
The game ends in me being on 6 while he is on 8. I have 2 Searing Blood and a Fireblast in hand, a Pillar for me and he has TNN and an Exarch in play.
So on his upkeep I cast the two Searing Bloods on his Exarch (1/4) which has him call a judge and explain delayed triggers to him. That puts me at 2 and he responds with a Lightning Bolt targetting me. Well thats that.

-2 Pillar (Felt bad against a deck which has some reach and a sideboarded clock where it doesn't disrupt the combo but just the cantrips).
+1 Exquisite Firecraft
+1 Sulfuric Vortex

Game 3 I keep a nice 1 land hand with a Goblin Guide, Swiftspear, 2 Bolts and 2 2 mana spells, but I never draw the second land. He struggles for a while to find the Splinter Twinn, but manages to combo off on 1 life.
So he sided out all the Pestermites and with that it was most likely wrong to keep the Searing Bloods in.

0-3

Round 4 is against Miracles, which I am rather happy about as I did want to test against the "new" version without top and with predict and Azcanta. He played a rather classic version planning to kill with Jace or Entreat.

Game 1 he has a turn 2 Counterbalance, which does a lot of work and manages to make 4 Angels while on 8 life which I can't race.

Sideboarding:
-4 PoP
-2 Searing Blood
+3 Firecraft
+1 Vortex
+2 Pyrostatic (feels a little better here as there is a lot of time, and supporting CB without Top requires more cantrips)

Game 2 he Swords a turn 1 Goblin Guide. He brought in a Surgical Extraction wich removes all my Lightning Bolts, but donesn't hit my hand, which feels wrong to me as that just cost him a card and 2 life while achieving almost nothing. He doesn't have a lot of action and I manage to get him down to 3 when a Firecraft kills him.

Game 3 he has Swords for 2 Creatures manages to get a Counterbalance out but doesn't manage to pressure me at all. He playes a Jace on 6 life and starts Fatesealing but I already have a Fireblast in hand, draw a Bolt which I manage to sneak past the CB and the Blast kills him.

1-3
So I felt a little better after defeating Miracles, but after all was a little disappointed about the games where I either had too many land or didn't draw any. That's the risk we take not playing blue, but it still feels like you didn't make mistakes to lose the game, but just had bad luck. Exept for 1 Dredge deck there was no graveyard reliant deck in the room, but I still felt it was right to show up with hate. Might change that thogh.
Other decks I saw where multiple copies of Mircales, Punishing Jund, Elves, and a Ravager Shops deck without Shops (MUD).

2 Starting Questions:
What do you guys think about keeping 1 landers? The odds to draw another one are round 38% after that which maybe just is to low, but having like 3 to 4 1 mana spells where 1 is a creature always is tempting to me.

What would be good hate against Food Chain that also hits other decks that are relevant. I am considering Pyroblast and the like but that feels rather low impact.

edit: So Pithing Needle might also work, but I haven't played that in a Burn Sideboard ever. What are your experiences with that. And what about Phyrexian Revoker? I like that it has a body, but is that a liability against the decks we want that effect against and how bad is 2 mana compared to 1?

[scaryrawr]

Have people still been liking swiftspear with how it seems like the format is swinging back to be more creature focused? or do i have a bad read on how prevalent creatures are right now?

if creatures are more prevalent what have y'all been playing in those slots?

I'm actually trying a 3/3 split of Monastery Swiftspear and Grim Lavamancer. I feel swiftspear is still good, but I'm feel for fair matchups, we do want to be able to clear the board for Goblin Guide and other creatures to get through. The meta is in a weird spot I feel. We ahve a lot of control/midrange decks where Grim is stronger, but we also have a lot of combo decks where Swiftspear I think is stronger.

[Ronald Deuce]

I'm actually trying a 3/3 split of Monastery Swiftspear and Grim Lavamancer. I feel swiftspear is still good, but I'm feel for fair matchups, we do want to be able to clear the board for Goblin Guide and other creatures to get through. The meta is in a weird spot I feel. We ahve a lot of control/midrange decks where Grim is stronger, but we also have a lot of combo decks where Swiftspear I think is stronger.

One thing I've noticed about Lavaman is that people seem to think he's an inordinately high-value target. Most times he resolves, I don't even get the chance to activate him before he gets killed. Now that can be good or bad, depending on what we've got in our hand, what we're facing, and other things, but I tend to feel like snowballing "minor threat" cards can get us there more effectively than playing heavy-duty but vulnerable guys. Obviously this depends on the matchup and the rest of our build, but I feel like the dichotomy is real.

A related question: how often do you feel like you get the chance to activate Lavaman multiple times in a game?

Not trying to denigrate your plan; I'm genuinely interested in more info.

[IamHANDSOME]

One thing I've noticed about Lavaman is that people seem to think he's an inordinately high-value target. Most times he resolves, I don't even get the chance to activate him before he gets killed. Now that can be good or bad, depending on what we've got in our hand, what we're facing, and other things, but I tend to feel like snowballing "minor threat" cards can get us there more effectively than playing heavy-duty but vulnerable guys. Obviously this depends on the matchup and the rest of our build, but I feel like the dichotomy is real.

A related question: how often do you feel like you get the chance to activate Lavaman multiple times in a game?

Not trying to denigrate your plan; I'm genuinely interested in more info.

The thing with Lavamancer: It is not about pinging your opponent for 2 every round. Lavamancer is a free removal spell for most of the meta games creatures. This is where Lavamancer is devestating. So people will most of the time kill Lavamancer afap unless they have 2 Gurmag Angler on the field and race you. Since Burn uses it spells on the opponents face and not on the creatures (or very very rarely) Lavamancer shines not in Burn but in Ur Delver or aggressive Sligh, Zoo and Urx lists. Still you should play Lavamancer in Burn to creature more card value since he has the potential. Very often after played all of my spells, my opponent is on 5 and I dont have any more cards in hand. He plays Brainstorm and Ponder and finds the relevant counter spells for my next spells and I rely on topdecking. Getting Lavamancer or having him active could win you the game. The same also counts with Sulfuric Vortex except Vortex is actually the pinging Lavamancer and Lavamancer is a free removal spell. Still 3 Lavamancer seem way to high for me so never play more than 2 in a Burn deck imho.

Also to the debate Swiftspear vs. Lavamancer: Swiftspear is a pretty good creature which can easily grow to 3 in a Burn deck. I would not like to miss Swiftspear in my list. Goblin Guide on the other hand often feels much weaker. The Goblin is stronger at the beginning but can accelerate your opponent tremendously by letting them draw 1-2 lands. This can let your opponent find his counterspells or the Show and Tell he needs for comboing you etc. I actually hate the fact playing an aggressive deck and help my opponent find more solutions against our spells and creatures. I remember a time back in 2010 when you played 4-6 creatures in your Burn deck to weaken creature removal spells such as Swords to Plowshares or Lightning Bolt and getting even less hated since youre running a Mono Red Burn deck. So Goblin Guide is the first creature I would probably cut if something better comes up.

People forgot that Burn is not a Turn 2 combo deck which kills super consistently and can "afford" to play a bunch of disadvantage cards. Often the situation is that you rely on topdecking your spells, playing PoP at the right time and not running into a Daze. All of this slows Burn down a lot. Since you dont have cantrips to fill up your hands every single Burn spell counts and you can not afford to loose against 2 Daze in a row because you were to greedy to play around Daze. This is where Burn is actually a little bit more difficult to play. You really have to play Burn like a "combo deck", every single damage is important, you have to worry about Daze, Spell Pierce and never keep the same cards in hand to run into a Cabal Therapy. I also play Ur Delver and all of this matters also, still sometimes casting a Brainstorm makes little mistakes go away because you can go swing back for 6 with a flipped Delver and grown Swiftspear while Brainstorm found everything you need. In Burn you dont have this options so in a very specific way it is sometimes harder to play ^^

This is the list Im rocking currently in Burn:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
11 Mountain

No dead card in my list such as Searing Blaze main. Just straight in the face and a couple of midgame options with Lavamancer and Vortex. Before I cut Vortex I would cut Lavamancer. Vortex is one of the best cards ever printed for Burn. Its a running clock and kills cards such as Shaman, Ooze and Griselbrand you would loose against since they produce life. Vortex is one of the most important cards for Burn imho. Also running 2-3 Vortex Main gives you more slots in your board.

[scaryrawr]

One thing I've noticed about Lavaman is that people seem to think he's an inordinately high-value target. Most times he resolves, I don't even get the chance to activate him before he gets killed. Now that can be good or bad, depending on what we've got in our hand, what we're facing, and other things, but I tend to feel like snowballing "minor threat" cards can get us there more effectively than playing heavy-duty but vulnerable guys. Obviously this depends on the matchup and the rest of our build, but I feel like the dichotomy is real.

A related question: how often do you feel like you get the chance to activate Lavaman multiple times in a game?

Not trying to denigrate your plan; I'm genuinely interested in more info.

It depends on the matchup. Against Czech pile... maybe once. D&T a ton, Eldrazi a ton, Elves... until they hoof me. Miracles... maybe once to a ton. Delver variants 0-3 times. My favorite is against D&T when they have Rishadan Port and they look at lavamancer, look at your land, look at your yard, look at your lavamancer, and feel confused on whether or not to port you...

I've actually gone back down to 2 Grim Lavamancers main (was a really quick test). I found I definitely saw Lavamancer more (which I really wanted), but I didn't realize how much more (I think the 3rd would be better in the side, but I think I'm fine with just 2 now). My local meta seems to be getting very combo lately as of late, so I might be cutting Lavamancer soon to try going faster.



@IamHANDSOME, I've seen a lot of people say this about Goblin Guide being a bad card. It can help clear the top of your opponents deck, but most of the time it's just telling you what they're drawing, which intel is huge. It also can help you identify what deck your opponent is on, and help with deciding on how to sequence depending on what's card your opponent is drawing next.

There are some matchups where I value Swiftspear more, but I feel Goblin Guide is still the better of the two. Swiftspear has more explosive turns, but if you look at the damage lost from the non explosive ones, it's just playing catch up to Goblin Guide. If you're going Guide into Eidolon, it feels a lot better than Swiftspear into Eidolon. It can definitely be stronger late game (I think I once had it up as a 5/6, but that might have been in UR Delver which makes more sense... for 4 spells in a single turn...).

That said... I do tend to side out Guide before Swiftspear, but I think that's just out of habit. I've been siding them both out lately just to see how it goes lol.

[yankeedave]

Hey Y'all!

After 3 years away, I'm back and re-learning this deck.

Quick question: what do people think of By Force? It looks good against things like Eldrazi Stompy and Leovold decks which seem to be everywhere around me. I like the idea of taking out a Chalice and a Trinisphere out with one card. I'm thinking 2 Abrade and 2 By Force in the side to shore up those matches, as well as splash damage on Affinity, which can be a chore.

[Mr. Safety]

Hey Y'all!

After 3 years away, I'm back and re-learning this deck.

Quick question: what do people think of By Force? It looks good against things like Eldrazi Stompy and Leovold decks which seem to be everywhere around me. I like the idea of taking out a Chalice and a Trinisphere out with one card. I'm thinking 2 Abrade and 2 By Force in the side to shore up those matches, as well as splash damage on Affinity, which can be a chore.

You're going to have to really sell me on why either is better than Smash to Smithereens. By Force could be like Shattering Spree, but less efficient. Abrade is nice in how flexible it is, I would still use those in the side, maybe 2.

[scaryrawr]

Hey Y'all!

After 3 years away, I'm back and re-learning this deck.

Quick question: what do people think of By Force? It looks good against things like Eldrazi Stompy and Leovold decks which seem to be everywhere around me. I like the idea of taking out a Chalice and a Trinisphere out with one card. I'm thinking 2 Abrade and 2 By Force in the side to shore up those matches, as well as splash damage on Affinity, which can be a chore.

By Force isn't a good replacement for Shattering Spree in my opinion (if you even run Shattering Spree), the fact Spree has replicate, where By Force is just X targets, means one is easier to disrupt than the other. Also, against a deck like 4c Loam who sometimes has Gaddock Teeg, you won't be able to cast By Force without using removal on Teeg.

Also, Abrade is definitely a good card, but I don't think for us. I'm not sure how often we'd want it over Smash to Smithereens. Smash also does damage to face which is huge. Abrade being able to be creature removal as well makes it a very balanced and versatile card, but we already have cards that do better jobs at being creature removal Searing Blaze and Searing Blood, Smash is our Searing Artifact removal.

The reason we also want these cards is that we're not just doing a 1 for 1 trade, Searing and Smashes are all 2 for 1's. We're trying to maximize 3 damage to the face with every card we play. Abrade doesn't do that, By Force doesn't, neither does Spree, but Smash and Searing effects do. They take care of a card we care about and get our opponents life total down by 3. Every spell that doesn't do 3 damage to the face means we have to draw another card to make up for it, but we don't have card draw, so it's giving our opponent more time to stabilize. I'm not saying everything should always be pointed at the face, just when you make card selections remember the only way we win is by knocking our opponent down to 0.

[veriest1]

Thoughts on the singleton Exquisite Firecraft I've been seeing some decks running main board? I tried it and it seems fine online. Almost good even with all the different blue decks that run around.

[scaryrawr]

Thoughts on the singleton Exquisite Firecraft I've been seeing some decks running main board? I tried it and it seems fine online. Almost good even with all the different blue decks that run around.

I play 3 in the sideboard.

I think in the main 1 or 2 is fine as well (in the past they've taken the slot of Sulfuric Vortex).

My caution is that in some matchups the card is a little too slow (which why I think 1 or 2 main and not 3 or 4).

[veriest1]

I play 3 in the sideboard.

I think in the main 1 or 2 is fine as well (in the past they've taken the slot of Sulfuric Vortex).

My caution is that in some matchups the card is a little too slow (which why I think 1 or 2 main and not 3 or 4).

That's exactly where I've had it. I've had little use for the main deck Vortex but the single Firecraft has been pretty good and no slower than Vortex. It's been a much better top deck the couple of times it came up.

[Lyle Hopkins]

What does everyone think of this list? Deflecting Palm out of the board with a single Plateau in the main. Spicy.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/991179#paper

[Lord Darkview]

I find D.Palm hilarious in Modern. Probably a bit less reliable in Legacy, and highly dependent on the amount of Emrakul, Griselbrand, and Marit Lage expected. I'd prefer two Plateau though, just in case they use Wasteland to counter the plan.

[scaryrawr]

What does everyone think of this list? Deflecting Palm out of the board with a single Plateau in the main. Spicy.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/991179#paper

I think it's interesting. I've thought about running something closer to modern Burn in legacy, but just haven't gotten to it (I'm lazy... and Plateaus don't come in foil...).

I feel the meta recently has been calling for more spice, and it definitely helps for unfavorable matchups.

[jimytuning]

I present my current list, what do you think?


4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
8 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike


// 15 Sideboard
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Searing Blaze
1 Sudden Shock
4 Exquisite Firecraft