[Primer/Deck] Burn

[paeng4983]

Hi every one, i need a advice with one match up in particularly, can you help me with "show and tell", i have done many thing, i used use angel or archon, bridge, reb and so on, but i cant get a good position to this match up. is there a particular hand you need?

thank

Well, we really cannot do anything much to improve our chances against our bad MUs, Sneaky Show and Reanimator. Bridges together with hope and pray that they wont get get bouncer are my side boards. ^_^

[Lormador]

Hi every one, i need a advice with one match up in particularly, can you help me with "show and tell", i have done many thing, i used use angel or archon, bridge, reb and so on, but i cant get a good position to this match up. is there a particular hand you need?

thank

Both of these decks are bad matchups, first of all, so don't expect too much. That said, there are a few things you can do.

1. Ensnaring Bridge has some virtue of being able to come in against both of these decks, as well as others, buy that flexibility isn't free. The card is not very effective. It will buy you a variable amount of time against Sneaky Show, and doesn't do much against a lot of Reanimator creatures even if you get to resolve it. The worst Reanimator target, Iona, cares nothing for the bridge.

2. Blasts can help, but here again you're on thin ice. The best thing to counter, in my opinion, is the setup spells, those Brainstorms and Ponders. The killer Show and Tell, when it comes, is going to be defended. Of course the problem with this is that you've got to have mana open, slowing the clock and obviating the entire point of the deck. It's hard to Blast one's way to a blowout.

3. Sulfuric Vortex should stay in. Dropping this off of a SnT against a Griselbrand can leave you with chances in a damage race.

Those are the flexible cards that a lot of players keep around, myself included. Strategy #1 is right here, the plan of having some SB cards that at least might do something, but come in against a lot of other decks, and hope to dodge these.



In my opinion, though, stronger and more specific hate is actually required should you wish to actually have a positive matchup.

4. Graveyard hate: if you want to beat Reanimator, you really want a Faerie Macabre just because it's uncounterable. Now, they can still Thoughtseize it. Tormod's Crypt is harder to catch with discard, but it is vulnerable to countermagic. Pick your poison. I like the faerie. Unfortunately, this won't solve all your problems, as Reanimator packs Show and Tell.

5. Dedicated Show and Tell hate: you mentioned Angel. I suppose you meant Angel of Despair, and though most people use Ashen Rider (since it's better), Vindicangel is old-school and I like her. Don't skimp. You need three. Iona, Guardian of Emeria deserves honorable mention here. The problem is that 3 slots devoted to this specific problem is 20% of the board space devoted to 1.5 decks, raising their percentage by just a little bit. Also, be careful not to cackle like Mr. Burns when the unlikely happens and you actually open with an Angel in your grip against SnT. They'll put you on the Angel and go for Sneak Attack.

These are pretty awful matchups, but in my view they aren't the worst. Omnitell is the worst. It has nearly the same clock, straight basic lands to dodge PoP, no need to pass the turn when it goes off, and Leyline of Sanctity out of the board. Oh, and it takes at most 2 damage from Eidolon when it goes off.

That's what I think anyway.

[Gaudy]

Hi, thank for the reply. i have made no choise yet about what to do. one option that i was thinking about is do nothing (aka no sb against show and tell) and use that slot in other match.

[Mondale]

Both of these decks are bad matchups, first of all, so don't expect too much. That said, there are a few things you can do.

1. Ensnaring Bridge has some virtue of being able to come in against both of these decks, as well as others, buy that flexibility isn't free. The card is not very effective. It will buy you a variable amount of time against Sneaky Show, and doesn't do much against a lot of Reanimator creatures even if you get to resolve it. The worst Reanimator target, Iona, cares nothing for the bridge.

2. Blasts can help, but here again you're on thin ice. The best thing to counter, in my opinion, is the setup spells, those Brainstorms and Ponders. The killer Show and Tell, when it comes, is going to be defended. Of course the problem with this is that you've got to have mana open, slowing the clock and obviating the entire point of the deck. It's hard to Blast one's way to a blowout.

3. Sulfuric Vortex should stay in. Dropping this off of a SnT against a Griselbrand can leave you with chances in a damage race.

Those are the flexible cards that a lot of players keep around, myself included. Strategy #1 is right here, the plan of having some SB cards that at least might do something, but come in against a lot of other decks, and hope to dodge these.



In my opinion, though, stronger and more specific hate is actually required should you wish to actually have a positive matchup.

4. Graveyard hate: if you want to beat Reanimator, you really want a Faerie Macabre just because it's uncounterable. Now, they can still Thoughtseize it. Tormod's Crypt is harder to catch with discard, but it is vulnerable to countermagic. Pick your poison. I like the faerie. Unfortunately, this won't solve all your problems, as Reanimator packs Show and Tell.

5. Dedicated Show and Tell hate: you mentioned Angel. I suppose you meant Angel of Despair, and though most people use Ashen Rider (since it's better), Vindicangel is old-school and I like her. Don't skimp. You need three. Iona, Guardian of Emeria deserves honorable mention here. The problem is that 3 slots devoted to this specific problem is 20% of the board space devoted to 1.5 decks, raising their percentage by just a little bit. Also, be careful not to cackle like Mr. Burns when the unlikely happens and you actually open with an Angel in your grip against SnT. They'll put you on the Angel and go for Sneak Attack.

These are pretty awful matchups, but in my view they aren't the worst. Omnitell is the worst. It has nearly the same clock, straight basic lands to dodge PoP, no need to pass the turn when it goes off, and Leyline of Sanctity out of the board. Oh, and it takes at most 2 damage from Eidolon when it goes off.

That's what I think anyway.

What about grafdigger's cage? Seems good against reanimator and dredge. Incidental hate against elves.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What about grafdigger's cage? Seems good against reanimator and dredge. Incidental hate against elves.

The response you quoted was a reply to the question: What is a good sideboard card against Show and Tell?
Grafdigger's Cage is a great sideboard card, but it does nothing against Show and Tell.

[Lormador]

That SCG Atlanta list ran 3 Pithing Needle in the board. Those could help against Griselbrand, and they are flexible enough to come in quite often. I think the problem would be the temptation to board them in when they weren't actually needed, and I still wouldn't want to be staring down a 7/7 flying lifelink creature with only a Pithing Needle to save me.

[jcsy]

How is howl of the horde? Any possibilities?

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[pinkfrosting]

How is howl of the horde? Any possibilities?

Too expensive and too conditional. It might work out for you and give you a 9 damage bolt every once in a while but more often then not you're just going to win before you get a chance to cast it, have it countered, or just not be able to meet all the conditions to make it work.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I've seen several decklists running three copies of Grim Lavamancer instead of four. What's everyone's opinion regarding the ideal number of this card in Burn?

[Lormador]

Any number of Grim Lavamancer is defensible depending on the conditions.

1-2 can be run without fetchlands although this probably won't be a concern for anyone any longer.

3 is for when one has the fetchlands and don't like seeing a second Grim Lavamancer. I run 3.

4 is for when one has the fetchlands and enjoys seeing a second Grim Lavamancer.

Before Eidolon was printed it was much more common to see 4 than 3 I think, as Burn didn't run that many creatures and removal tended to be available to kill the Lavaman. Nowadays, Grim has better chances to survive, and those MD Searing spells also do some of his work.

[Zoomer3989]

Any number of Grim Lavamancer is defensible depending on the conditions.

1-2 can be run without fetchlands although this probably won't be a concern for anyone any longer.

3 is for when one has the fetchlands and don't like seeing a second Grim Lavamancer. I run 3.

4 is for when one has the fetchlands and enjoys seeing a second Grim Lavamancer.

Before Eidolon was printed it was much more common to see 4 than 3 I think, as Burn didn't run that many creatures and removal tended to be available to kill the Lavaman. Nowadays, Grim has better chances to survive, and those MD Searing spells also do some of his work.

Agree on the conclusion about its numbers changing with how the deck's configuration has changed.

I still think 4 is the best number - we aren't a deck with real filtering, and Grim is a fragile card. Drawing 2 isn't amazing but it's not as if it's that bad of a draw in general. I would probably run 3 if I only ran 8 fetchlands, but I think 10-12 is correct.

The other issue I have is that I can rarely think of a card I'd want over the 4th. Possibly cutting a Searing Blaze for 2 maindeck Vortex, but I'm not a fan of it in the mainboard, especially with mainboard Eidolons. I don't think Burn is a deck that can use 1-ofs well, and Grim is powerful enough, IMO, that even though the 4th one is weaker then 1-3, it's still better then any 1-of we'd want.

[amalek0]

I tend to play 3 lavamancers, cutting the 4th for the 21st land (8th mountain) to help mitigate the increased number of stifles my manabase eats. As we all know, the %'s for 19,20, and 21 are all virtually the same, but since I rarely like drawing the second lavamancer and absolutely detest ever drawing three, I feel like the extra land is better than the 4th lavamancer. Note that I run a singleton keldon megaliths however, so you could view it as cutting a single lavamancer for a megaliths.

[jcsy]

Monastery Swiftspear

How is this card shaping up? Conditional and weak as well, or comparable to Goblin Guide :D

[Lyle Hopkins]

It's very good, but it's far better in UR where you'd be constantly and reliably cantripping via Probes and Brainstorms.

I brought it up earlier, and I think I have to agree with Jellydonut.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Went 4-0 at a 16 player local.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex

10 Mountains
1 Taiga
9 fetchlands

Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Destructive Revelry
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfuric Vortex

R1 D&T 2-0
R2 D&T 2-1
R3 ANT 2-1
R4 Reanimator 2-1

Swiftspear was good! He blanked a SoFaI trigger when I bolted my opponent's face against D&T. He did as much damage or more than GG every turn except the turn I played him. Against Storm I had 3 out and PoP, Fireblast and attacking for 9 was more than enough.

Taiga for Destructive Revelry helped against D&T.

[cheerios]

Wow!!! Props for beating ANT and Reanimator.

Cheers,

[PhyrexianPossum]

Went 4-0 at a 16 player local.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex

10 Mountains
1 Taiga
9 fetchlands

Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Destructive Revelry
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfuric Vortex

R1 D&T 2-0
R2 D&T 2-1
R3 ANT 2-1
R4 Reanimator 2-1

Swiftspear was good! He blanked a SoFaI trigger when I bolted my opponent's face against D&T. He did as much damage or more than GG every turn except the turn I played him. Against Storm I had 3 out and PoP, Fireblast and attacking for 9 was more than enough.

Taiga for Destructive Revelry helped against D&T.

I notice you don't have any Searing effects in the 75. Do you feel that this is detrimental in any way?

My list is similar to yours:


//Creature (10)
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear

//Enchantment Creature (4)
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

//Instant (15)
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze

//Sorcery (12)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

//Land (20)
4 Bloodstained Mire
12 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills

1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pyroclasm
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sudden Shock
2 Sulfuric Vortex


Also, with the inclusion of Monestary Swiftspear, is it totally wrong to include 1-2 Gitaxian Probe for a free pump and information?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Wow!!! Props for beating ANT and Reanimator.

Thank you! It helped that Storm kept a hand of discard and mana game 3 after we both mulled to 6.
Cage bought me enough time against Reanimator that I had him at low enough life game 3 that he couldn't cast Reanimate without killing himself.

I notice you don't have any Searing effects in the 75. Do you feel that this is detrimental in any way?

My list is similar to yours:

LIST

Also, with the inclusion of Monestary Swiftspear, is it totally wrong to include 1-2 Gitaxian Probe for a free pump and information?

Looks like you cut Vortex to fit Swiftspear and I cut Searing effects. I was concerned that cutting Searing Blaze could bite my ass, but I was happy not to have them maindeck against Storm and Reanimator.

Hard to say right or wrong about Probe. I haven't tested. My gut says I'd rather have a card that deals damage.

[LeoCop 90]

Running probe together with eidolon is too much suicide style ... at that point run also flame rift and you are authorized to splash black for death's shadow

Seriously speaking, probe can lead to difficult mulligan decision , and paying life can be a problem... i wouldn't run it when the only upside is the swiftspear "combo", and filling the graveyard for lavamancer if you run him.

[ntropy]

On the subject of cutting the 4th Grim Lavamancer and what one-ofs are worth running, what about 1 Flame Rift or 1 Shard Volley. Most builds have moved away from 4 Flame Rift main, and Shard Volley has it's liabilities, but as a 1 or 2-of, it could be Lightning Bolt number 17. (Or Rift could be Price Of Progress number 5.) Just a thought.