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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Burn

  1. #1561

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    As a modern player you know that Bomat isn't even good enough for the modern burn deck, so why in the name of Chandra's left tit would you use it in Legacy? It's a more powerful format with an even greater need of efficiency. Modern also doesn't have: chain lightning, fireblast, price of progress, or sulfuric vortex. If you can cram the core cards of burn into a legacy deck and then have room after adding those cards then more power to you.

    Honestly, Bomat seems like a trap card. It promises a long term gain at the cost of short term damage output. It might have application in some matchups, but overall it doesn't seem great to me.

    Legacy's needs are not modern's needs. Bomat is very efficient IMO. Worth testing.

  2. #1562
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by compacta_d View Post
    Legacy's needs are not modern's needs. Bomat is very efficient IMO. Worth testing.
    What is it replacing?
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  3. #1563
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    There are 2 lists on the last page with 4 bomat.
    -rob

  4. #1564

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    What is it replacing?
    in my list Rift Bolt, this is it:

    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    4 Bomat Courier
    4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Fireblast
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    3 Sulfuric Vortex
    8 Fetchlands
    11 Mountain

    4 Lightning Bolt and 4 Chain Lightning are allready 8 removal spells if we really need them plus 2 Grim Lavamancer so Rift Bolt is the worst card. Otherwise it would have been Lava Spike obviously. I like the list.

  5. #1565
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    I'm not a fan of Courier. Not that it's a bad card; I just don't think it really does anything to make it more useful than the other stuff in our deck.

    Even if we cut our worst direct-damage card for it, we're going to be powering down our openers for a chance (a chance) at gaining long-term resilience—and that's assuming the Courier doesn't just get blocked the first/second time it attacks and that we have untapped lands when we need them. And we shouldn't be the ones holding back; it's our job to zero people as quickly as possible.

    Reminds me a bit of when someone suggested running Volcanic Islands to add Brainstorm. (Also reminds me of why Brainstorm, powerful though it is, is overrated.) We're spending resources to do less damage in the hopes that maybe we'll find something better, and I don't think that's worth it when we're already running all the maximal sources of damage except Hidetsugu and/or his second rite.

    Feel free to prove me wrong, though. I like spicy things.
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  6. #1566
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    I gave Bomat a run this week at a local as creatures 13-16 and had mixed results. I had the opportunity to draw 3 cards and 5 cards off of it in two longer games where other cards were presenting more immediate threats to life total. It not presenting much immediate damage is sort of the other side of examining the card. There were a lot of hands where I curved something like Bomat into Eidolon they answered the Eidolon and I'm starting turn 3 with them still at 16 life and starting to hit the turns mana wise where their average draws do more than our 3 damage to the face. I'm not a practiced Burn player though and I definitely did not play optimally.

    For reference I was on

    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    4 Bomat Courier
    4 Eidolon of Great Revel

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Fireblast
    1 Sulfuric Vortex

    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Wooded Foothills
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Arid Mesa
    9 Mountain

    Sideboard:
    3 Smash to Smitereens
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Pyrostatic Pillar
    2 Abrade
    1 Sulfuric Vortex
    TPDMC

  7. #1567

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Hi, everyone.

    It’s really nice to see so much activity in the thread! I believe it’s important that we keep an open mind for new ideas -otherwise there’s not much room for discussion, which is the whole point of any forum, isn’t it? Therefore, I’d like to address a few comments/ideas from earlier this week before sharing my experience with Bomat Courier:

    Burn is essentially a slow combo deck.
    Ever since Eidolon of the Great Revel was printed, Burn stopped being just a ‘slow combo deck’. Sure, it can sometimes kill as early as turn 3, but I believe experienced, constant Burn pilots have come to understand that the deck has become quite an interactive archetype. I love Burn, and it’s pretty much the only deck I’ve been piloting for the past four years or so (with GOOD results), and I must say: the least of the games I win are actually won in this ‘combo’ fashion.

    Burn will always be ‘that boring old list’.
    I don’t think this kind of reasoning helps at all. There is no reason why we should choose to keep our builds stagant. Burn (actually Magic: The Gathering) is not a binary game, not even when it comes to all-in decks such as Belcher. Every single game is different, and any given card will prove its worth differently in each of those games.
    Also, I’d like to point out that there are at least three valid established builds for the Burn archetype:
    - The pre Monastery Swiftspear build.
    - The Patrick Sullivan’s ‘all mountains’ build (which runs 4 copies of Flame Rift and no Grim Lavamancer), and finally:
    - The Fetch Lands + Monastery Swiftspear build. This is apparently the most common list.

    Now, as to my experience and thoughts regarding Bomat Courier: Burn does not need card advantage in order to obtain consistent results. Burn is a powerful yet fragile deck: it requires us to have a more-than-adequate understanding of the opponent’s decklist and strategy in order to sequence properly, kill the right creatures, hold the damage until a window opens, and so on (I insist: this is not a ‘slow combo deck’ anymore). That said, once you master this deck, you will usually have a few cards in your hand by the time you win a game. However, this does not mean we should decline card advantage options just because they don’t ensure damage. I mean, most of us run at least 2 copies of Grim Lavamancer, right? The benefit of running such a powerful card is way greater than the risk it presents, which is JUST not dealing damage ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Could the same logic be applied to Bomat Courier?

    I tried Bomat Courier last night at my LGS, and it performed better than I anticipated. To be honest, there were times when I drew cards and it felt like running after training with ankle weights. Also, the Bomat proved to be a very good topdeck during the mid-game -I was always happy to draw a Courier instead of any of the Rift Bolt copies I cut in order to make some space. Some of the valuable plays I was able to do with the Courier were:
    - Fetching in order to figure out what cards were under the Courier, which translated into cracking it at the best possible moment.
    - Being able to comfortably spend my burn spells as removal against Elves, knowing I still had fuel under the Bomat (6 cards!) to reach victory.
    - Using it as bate (by the way, it got killed and countered quite often) in order to resolve Pyrostatic Pillar on turn 2.

    I switched my only copy of Sulfuric Vortex with one of the copies of Searing Blaze from the Sideboard. Sulfuric Vortex is too heavy (CMC=3) to get rid of before cracking Bomat Courier, and Searing Blaze seems coherent with this ‘Red Deck Wins’ approach.

    So here’s the maindeck list I’m currently testing:

    //18 CREATURES
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    4 Bomat Courier
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

    //23 SPELLS
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    3 Searing Blaze
    4 Fireblast

    //19 LANDS
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Arid Mesa
    10 Mountain

  8. #1568

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Thoughts on the new punisher card?

    Three is a lot of mana, it never does what you want, but it doesn't do what you want twice, and at instant speed. Does that make up for it?

  9. #1569

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    It's pretty good. I think Browbeat was acceptable once, and this seems to take it's shortcomings into account. It's playable as a 2-of for sure.l

  10. #1570

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Problem with Browbeat and the new card will always be: 1. Your opponent chooses whats best for him. That means against combo it will be either to slow to race or 4/5 damage for 3 not enough and 2. fair decks take the card for THEIR advantage. It had to be a super fair deck like D&T to make the card compensate, but once Miracles or something like Grixis Control have the upper hand these cards will be always dead somehow. So I see against D&T and like Delver decks the card actually working with a little luck and fun, but certain decks can take advantage of it and you want the save burn spell instead, especially something like Exquisite Firecraft which also costs 3 mana but comes for sure!

    Here is my list without Bomat Courier which I think is the strongest build you can make out of Burn currently:

    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Fireblast
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    3 Sulfuric Vortex
    8 red Fetchlands
    11 Mountain
    //
    3 GY Hate (Tormod's Crypt, Grafdigger's Cage, ...)
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Smash to Smithereens
    3 Searing Blaze
    2 Pyrostatic Pillar

    You have no dead card in your main 60, Vortex is preboard an anti lifegain card and also a clock if you dont have hand cards left (it even stacks when having 2 Vortex on the board so the 2. is not dead), Lavamancer can dominate certain matchups and the rest is the basic Burn stuff. You definitely want the Ensnaring Bridge against all the big creature matchups like Eldrazi, Sneak and Show, Reanimator since they are not really likely to handle it once resolved. Pyroblast can make sure to get handle certain cards like TNN, Energie Field, Jace, countering Show and Tell or make sure your Price or Fireblast resolves. Smash and Searing Blaze as artifact and creature removal and 2 Pyrostatic Pillar to make sure it lies T2 against Elves or Storm. If you have a lot of Stifle running around in your meta you could also think about taking out the fetchlands, 2 Grim Lavamancer and 1 Vortex for 3 Flame Rift. Definitely worse as a list but maybe better in certain metas, probably also against combo decks which need to be raced.

  11. #1571

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Best for them does not translate to being good for them. It's definitely something to test since it's an instant, not a sorcery like Browbeat. It will translate differently, I'm pretty sure.

  12. #1572
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Best for them does not translate to being good for them. It's definitely something to test since it's an instant, not a sorcery like Browbeat. It will translate differently, I'm pretty sure.
    Wouldn't the logic be if our default curve is 3 damage for R, if we can tap 3 for this and they let us draw 3 cards, they're taking 9 next turn. So then ignore that part; is 4 damage for 2R good enough?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  13. #1573
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Wouldn't the logic be if our default curve is 3 damage for R, if we can tap 3 for this and they let us draw 3 cards, they're taking 9 next turn. So then ignore that part; is 4 damage for 2R good enough?
    The upside to the card, and what *might* make it playable is it's ability to convert land #4 into a spell. And at that point, it doesn't really matter what mode your opponent chooses...

  14. #1574

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Wouldn't the logic be if our default curve is 3 damage for R, if we can tap 3 for this and they let us draw 3 cards, they're taking 9 next turn. So then ignore that part; is 4 damage for 2R good enough?
    On it's own, no. Is 4 damage for 2R, and then 4 damage for 2R again enough? In that sense... I don't know. Some shells pay 2 mana for 4 damage to each player, one time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    The upside to the card, and what *might* make it playable is it's ability to convert land #4 into a spell. And at that point, it doesn't really matter what mode your opponent chooses...
    That is the primary point that makes me interested in it. barring it being lethal, I'm 90% sure that the "correct" play for my opponent is almost always "take 4 damage".

    Being able to cast it on their endstep, before your turn, AND being able to recast it with a land card seems pretty enticing.

  15. #1575
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Just checking we're not entertaining getting our preferred outcome on the choice.
    I agree that flashback is the spicy part, as long as that's what is being discussed.
    As an opponent, unless I'm at 4 life or have Chalice on 1, there is no way you'd draw 3 cards.
    But 8 damage over 2 turns for 2 cards is worth considering.

    EDIT: I guess as a Fireblast-esque finisher it could be good. Casting it for damage EOT then tapping out to cast it again and forcing them to let you have cards, only to get a Fireblast to end it would be pretty day-making.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  16. #1576

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Yea, I like the idea of 8 damage from a single card a lot. Given the deck frame "draw 3" will almost always be *at least* 3 damage, usually at least 6, so "take 4" will always be better for my opponent.

  17. #1577
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    Yea, I like the idea of 8 damage from a single card a lot. Given the deck frame "draw 3" will almost always be *at least* 3 damage, usually at least 6, so "take 4" will always be better for my opponent.
    Depends on if they're racing or stabilizing. Tempo-wise letting you draw 3 can let a combo deck win or whatever, while a control deck will almost always be inclined to take 4. Of course, it's not actual card advantage but it can smooth out your draws by turning an excess land into a business spell so it's not entirely without merit. Still, we're not playing Browbeat so you'll have to weigh how much the ability to turn a land into a spell is worth vs. the disadvantage of letting the enemy take the more advantageous option.

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