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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Burn

  1. #201
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by AmokPL View Post
    Here it is:

    //Creature (8)
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Grim Lavamancer


    //Enchantment (2)
    2 Sulfuric Vortex

    //Instant (14)
    4 Fireblast
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    2 Skullcrack

    //Sorcery (16)
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Flame Rift
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt

    //Land (20)
    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Wooded Foothills
    8 Mountain



    SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
    SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
    SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 3 Volcanic Fallout

    I'm happy with main list as the deck is as aggressive as it can be. Still toying with sb though.
    Could you explain the split on Sulfuric and Skullcrack in more depth?
    How vital have the Volcanic Fallouts been in general, and what match-ups do you find you need them in?

  2. #202
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    As I said before I treat Skullcracks as an instant one-turn version of Vortex. When I was playing 3-4 Vortexes I got flooded with it so many times I decided to cut it. Vortex itself is not a gamebreaker. Having four copies of it increases chances of getting it soon but ideally on turn 3 I wouldn't want to drop it just to have it Dazed or Decayed and have a blank turn. It WILL get countered most of the times. I like to draw it when I realize the game will last longer. Opponent held his ground, most likely got rid of all counters, denying my finishing spells. Yes, then you drop Vortex and try again.

    Playing Burn, every turn you didn't deal damage is a big step towards losing the game. My approach is to throw all I have in opponent's face ASAP to get him killed turn 3-4. If he manages to drop f.e Batterskull and try to attack to get more life - I will Skullcrack his head denying his lifegain, hitting for 3 and killing him next turn. The longer the game goes, the lesser your chances for winning it. Having two Vortexes on turn 2-3 is not a good hand despite Vortex being a good (also slow) card

    Volcanic Fallout is the best answer for aggro decks. Instant, uncounterable, hits flyers. Some Goblin, Elf even Merfolk players in my area would agree.

  3. #203
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Deciding to get back to my Legacy roots, and rebuild Burn. Unfortunately, I'm poor, and can't afford fetches. Since Grim Lavamancer isn't very good without lots of stuff to put in the yard, I'm trying a different direction.


    4 Goblin Guide

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Flame Rift
    4 Fireblast
    4 Thunderous Wrath
    2 Pyrokinesis

    3 Sulfuric Vortex

    19 Mountain



    Wrath is five damage for one off the top, but pretty terrible in hand. To help counter that, I'm running a couple Pyrokinesis to chuck the useless copies and burn some problematic creatures. And hey, it deals four damage! Just enough to kill a Germ token with Batterskull on it. Thoughts?
    I'm Phil. I play red.

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  4. #204
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldslayerGuy View Post
    Deciding to get back to my Legacy roots, and rebuild Burn. Unfortunately, I'm poor, and can't afford fetches. Since Grim Lavamancer isn't very good without lots of stuff to put in the yard, I'm trying a different direction.


    4 Goblin Guide

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Flame Rift
    4 Fireblast
    4 Thunderous Wrath
    2 Pyrokinesis

    3 Sulfuric Vortex

    19 Mountain



    Wrath is five damage for one off the top, but pretty terrible in hand. To help counter that, I'm running a couple Pyrokinesis to chuck the useless copies and burn some problematic creatures. And hey, it deals four damage! Just enough to kill a Germ token with Batterskull on it. Thoughts?
    I like your idea of pitching it to Pyrokinesis when it is bad, but I feel it is too risky to even run the card, especially with only 2 Pyrokinesis and Pyrokinesis isn't even hitting them in the face. I really think Thunderous Wrath would only work in a brainstorm deck, and even there, it can be a dead card in your hand and you'll lose the game because of it sometime. Here is an idea I am toying with, for a fetchless burn though, if you have any interest in a budget interaction that has been discussed in the past, and could be fun:

    Creature (13)


    Instant (12)


    Enchantment (3)


    Sorcery (12)


    Land (20)



    Cheers,
    Jacob

  5. #205
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Running Hellspark and Marauders was going to be the Plan B. Not sure how well the creature-heavier build will do in this metagame.

    Fishbowling my list, I wind up with Wrath in my opener too often. Maybe I'll try cutting a copy, for a Lavamancer. Of course, I'd need to get for real-real playtesting in as well.
    I'm Phil. I play red.

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  6. #206

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Thunderous Wrath and Pyrokinesis is clever, Worldslayer, it's a shame Pyrokinesis doesn't also hit the face.

    I know this is digging through the bottom of the barrel, but what about Cave-In for some additional player damage at the cost of (maybe) being able to kill a Batterskull token.

  7. #207
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Lava Spike Spiegel View Post
    Thunderous Wrath and Pyrokinesis is clever, Worldslayer, it's a shame Pyrokinesis doesn't also hit the face.

    I know this is digging through the bottom of the barrel, but what about Cave-In for some additional player damage at the cost of (maybe) being able to kill a Batterskull token.
    It'd be good out of the board. Not sure in the main, though. I was trying to think of other Pitch cards that could be run. Cave-In definitely is a possibilty.
    I'm Phil. I play red.

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  8. #208
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Don't abandon thunderous wrath like that! It is a very good card but in a burn deck (even in a brainstorm deck) you never run 4 copies for obvious reasons. Run only 2 copies and if you feel insecure about it just add 1-2 cave-in which helps against aggro decks and hits the players. I have lost many times due to thunderous wrath. Give the card a chance- it deserves it.

  9. #209

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Hello everyone.

    I'm planning on building a Legacy Burn Deck in preparation for GP Paris next year, as I'm set on attending and have not played much legacy in the last couple of years. A question on the deck:

    In your experience, how many fetchlands are needed to support the full playset of lavamancers? Right now I only have access to 4 fetches, since the other red fetchlands are pretty expensive on mtgo... inversely, how many Lavamancers can I run with a manabase of 16 Mountains + 4 Fetchlands?

    thx in advance for your answers!

  10. #210
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondSunrise View Post
    Hello everyone.

    I'm planning on building a Legacy Burn Deck in preparation for GP Paris next year, as I'm set on attending and have not played much legacy in the last couple of years. A question on the deck:

    In your experience, how many fetchlands are needed to support the full playset of lavamancers? Right now I only have access to 4 fetches, since the other red fetchlands are pretty expensive on mtgo... inversely, how many Lavamancers can I run with a manabase of 16 Mountains + 4 Fetchlands?

    thx in advance for your answers!
    That is the problem with burn. People who have money play expensive decks and don't care about burn and people on budget play burn because they have to thus getting bad results with
    suboptimal lists. I understand the problem here but nonetheless it is a competetive forum and budget questions do not belong in here. If you cannot affort 10-12 red fetchlands (which are pretty cheap in comparison to others) to support Lavamancer then just play 4 GGuide, 4 VDevil, 4 Marauders/Hellsparks and cut Lavamancer or play Casual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by guillemnicolau View Post
    Since the print of dark petition grim tutor hasn't seen play in legacy (not in competitive decks).
    Quote Originally Posted by THerzog41 View Post
    I believe Maverick is still the best deck in the format and definitely the most underrated deck in the format.
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  11. #211

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by CabalTherapy View Post
    That is the problem with burn. People who have money play expensive decks and don't care about burn and people on budget play burn because they have to thus getting bad results with
    suboptimal lists. I understand the problem here but nonetheless it is a competetive forum and budget questions do not belong in here. If you cannot affort 10-12 red fetchlands (which are pretty cheap in comparison to others) to support Lavamancer then just play 4 GGuide, 4 VDevil, 4 Marauders/Hellsparks and cut Lavamancer or play Casual.

    Thank you for the quick answer. Just bought 8 fetchlands on mtgo. But from your answer I assume that 10 is the minimal number to support Lavamancers (or at least the full 4) ? Has it been established in this forum that a version running fetchlands is really superior to the "fetchless" versions?

  12. #212
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by CabalTherapy View Post
    That is the problem with burn. People who have money play expensive decks and don't care about burn and people on budget play burn because they have to thus getting bad results with
    suboptimal lists. I understand the problem here but nonetheless it is a competetive forum and budget questions do not belong in here. If you cannot affort 10-12 red fetchlands (which are pretty cheap in comparison to others) to support Lavamancer then just play 4 GGuide, 4 VDevil, 4 Marauders/Hellsparks and cut Lavamancer or play Casual.
    well i think with 8 fetch you can run 4 lavamancer any way

  13. #213
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondSunrise View Post
    Thank you for the quick answer. Just bought 8 fetchlands on mtgo. But from your answer I assume that 10 is the minimal number to support Lavamancers (or at least the full 4) ? Has it been established in this forum that a version running fetchlands is really superior to the "fetchless" versions?
    If your running Lavamancer, you want plenty of stuff in the yard for it. If you want to forego fetches, probably best to find something else.
    I'm Phil. I play red.

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  14. #214
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    I recently placed 22nd at a 184 player Legacy Tournament on the east coast and wanted to share some insight on matches and where I want to take my list next. Feel free to let me know any thoughts you may have about my sideboard plans and changes for my list going forward. It was 8 rounds and I went 6-2. You can find my list here: http://toacomics.com/blog/2013/12/09...-32-decklists/

    Round 1: TES (2-1)
    Game 1: Lose die roll, he turn 1 goes off for 10 Goblins. I have a triple goblin guide and 1 grim lavamancer hand, decide to play it out, end up going to 3 with favorable blocks. I get him low but he ends up playing Burning Wish for Grapeshot and next turn kills me with storm at 3. Props to him for thinking of that path to victory.
    Game 2: This game he fails to go off and casts Ad Nauseum with not enough life to get much, I price him for 6 and Fireblast for win.
    Game 3: I keep Mindbreak Trap hand, and he knows it from Gitaxian Probe turn 1. He gets to 3 lands, and silences me as first spell of turn, not much I can do here. He then pitches the game by playing Duress under Silence and not having enough mana open to go off, he had the win in his land otherwise. I Flame Rift and Fireblast him next turn for win.

    Sideboard:
    -4 Grim Lavamancer
    +2 Pyrostatic Pillar
    +2 Mindbreak Trap

    Round 2: RUG Delver (0-2)
    Game 1: Lose die roll, he stifles me at least 3 times over the course of the game, even trying to play around it. Out tempo's me with gofys.
    Game 2: Mulligan to 5, he has nut draws and out tempos me again, don't seem Grim Lavamancer either game, has counters when I try to kill delvers, Forces Rift Bolt. Rough Game.

    Sideboard:
    -4 Flame Rift
    -2 Sulfuric Vortex
    +2 Ensnaring Bridge
    +2 Pyroblast
    +2 Red Elemental Blast

    Round 3: American Delverblade (0-2)
    Game 1: Lose die roll, he gets True-Name Nemesis with Jitte online and I don't see a Sulfuric Vortex.
    Game 2: I don't see my hate early, and he swords a Grim Lavamancer. I pitch the game by playing a Sulfuric Vortex rather than an Ensnaring Bridge which was in my hand by accident when I am at 3, and lose the game because of it.

    Sideboard:
    -4 Flame Rift
    -4 Goblin Guide
    +2 Pyroblast
    +2 Red Elemental Blast
    +2 Smash to Smithereens
    +2 Ensnaring Bridge

    Round 4: TES (2-1)
    Game 1: I win die roll, have 2 goblin guide hand. I win the game before he does anything, he drew a lot of lands he says.
    Game 2: He turn 1 storms for 18 goblins, I look at my hand, decide the game is over at that point, go to game 3. Looking back, I should have mulligan for Mindbreak Trap, had Pyrostatic Pillar in hand.
    Game 3: I have Mindbreak Trap in seven, he takes it with duress. He then proceeds to play lands and pass turns for 3 turns, and I price him for 8 to win game. Says he got some pretty bad draws and flooded.

    Sideboard:
    -4 Grim Lavamancer
    +2 Pyrostatic Pillar
    +2 Mindbreak Trap

    Round 5: ANT (2-0)
    Game 1: I beat him before he gets anything going, he Gitaxian Probes me after winning die roll, and says Burn is bad matchup?
    Game 2: I keep hand with 1 land, Pyrostatic Pillar, Mindbreak Trap, and Goblin Guide. My first turn I draw another land, play guide, and then next turn I draw another Mindbreak and play Pyrostatic Pillar. The game was over after he laughed at Pyrostatic Pillar being really bad for him and Duresses me for fun, sees both Mindbreak Traps and takes a lava spike as a joke. Fun opponent, and somehow I beat 3 storm decks at this point, I was wondering if Storm was growing on trees that day.

    Sideboard:
    -4 Grim Lavamancer
    +2 Pyrostatic Pillar
    +2 Mindbreak Trap

    Round 6: Maverick (2-1)
    Game 1: I have a pretty slow hand with Prices, and he gets a huge Knight online before I can kill him, swapping for basics, and Wastelanding his own lands.
    Game 2: I land a Bridge and he has nothing, kill him with Price for 6.
    Game 3: I land a Sulfuric Vortex and a Bridge, and easily race him with Price and Fireblast in hand.

    Sideboard:
    -4 Goblin Guide
    +2 Ensnaring Bridge
    +2 Smash to Smithereens

    Round 7: RUG Delver (2-1)
    Game 1: We end up having a pretty long game, he counters a ton of my stuff with Force for days. I go to 3 because of Tarmogofy, and Nimble, he bolts me on my turn for the win. I am just sitting on Flame Rifts in hand from some pretty unlucky draws.
    Game 2: I get a Grim online, and race him. He actually has to block a Goblin Guide with flipped Delver. I price him with Fireblast backup, but he doesn't have the counter.
    Game 3: I keep a Tormod's Crypt, double Grim Lavamancer hand with Pyroblast as well. I land Tormod's on my turn with Daze backup of land, Suspend Rift Bolt so he doesn't play any delvers on his turn. He played a Nimble on his first turn, my Tormod seems really good in this matchup at this point and wise I had it in earlier in the day against the other delver player. he doesn't do much but attack for 1 on his turn and lay a land. I play grim on my next turn, and rift bolt resolves. On his next turn, I pyroblast a brainstorm, and he later says this is what probably won me the game, because he drew two lands after not resolving the brainstorm. He plays another Nimble, by the time his Nimbles are at threshold, I crack Tormod and he has 1/1s, and I have 2 grims online to keep any Tarmogofys from being an issue. I top deck a Price, and he has to double Wasteland down to 1 land. Next turn I top deck Lava Spike and he loses.

    Sideboard:
    -4 Flame Rift
    -3 Sulfuric Vortex
    +1 Tormod's Crypt
    +2 Ensnaring Bridge
    +2 Pyroblast
    +2 Red Elemental Blast

    Round 8: Merfolk (2-1)
    Game 1: He wins die roll, and gets a ton of merfolks online because I can do much.
    Game 2: I get him to 4, he has Jitte in play, and plays a True-Name Nemesis, I mess up and don't Pyroblast it. on my next turn, knowing he will equip Jitte and begin to get the game back on his next turn, have to Fireblast my lands away without hesitation of Force, he has Force/Vial/Vial in hand and I get the game.
    Game 3: we play back and forth, I block with Goblin Guides and knowing he has Jitte, make him force a Sulfuric Vortex, with Bridge in my hand. Play Bridge on my next turn, when I'm at 2 from a Flame Rift, he has nothing to deal with Bridge mainboard or sideboard, and I have him dead a turn later with Grim activation and Fireblast in hand. He concedes before I win knowing he can't deal with Bridge.

    Sideboard:
    -2 Flame Rift
    -2 Sulfuric Vortex
    -4 Price of Progress
    +2 Pyroblast
    +2 Red Elemental Blast
    +2 Smash to Smithereens
    +2 Ensnaring Bridge

    Changes I may make to mainboard:
    -1 Ensnaring Bridge
    +1 Gitaxian Probe

    Changes I may make to sideboard:
    -2 Faerie Macabre
    +1-2 Tormod's Crypt
    +1 Ensnaring Bridge (If cut from main)

  15. #215
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Congratulations! Especially on 3-0 versus Storm.

    Seems like with the metagame moving back towards more "fair" decks, a couple Bridges in the main would come in handy. Especially since you sided them in every non-Storm round.
    I'm Phil. I play red.

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  16. #216

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondSunrise View Post
    Thank you for the quick answer. Just bought 8 fetchlands on mtgo. But from your answer I assume that 10 is the minimal number to support Lavamancers (or at least the full 4) ? Has it been established in this forum that a version running fetchlands is really superior to the "fetchless" versions?
    8 is ok, but 10/12 is better.

  17. #217
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by JPettie View Post
    Game 1: I beat him before he gets anything going, he Gitaxian Probes me after winning die roll, and says Burn is bad matchup?
    First off Congrats! Secondly, I don't think Burn is a terrible matchup for ANT, but we do aggressively clock them, and their game plan is to sculpt for a few turns, then win with a Ad Nauseum, which wants a high life total. Clearly they are capable of early wins, and clearly they have ways to win from low life totals, but we definitely put the pressure on them more than some combo decks that either go off earlier (Like TES or Belcher) or don't need their life total (Like Omnitell or Spiral Tide). Just my 2 cents!

  18. #218

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by ntropy View Post
    Secondly, I don't think Burn is a terrible matchup for ANT, but we do aggressively clock them, and their game plan is to sculpt for a few turns, then win with a Ad Nauseum, which wants a high life total.
    Not really to be honest: the main road to victory for ANT is not Ad nauseam anymore, but Past in flames loop, which is far more reliable and doesn't need any life point to get going.
    This is why graveyard hate comes in handy vs ANT, while it's not that useful vs TES (but it's not bad either).

    On the other hand, TES loves to win through an early Ad nauseam, otherwise it goes for a bunch of turn-1 or turn-2 Goblins.


    Both matchups should be pretty awful, because TES is simply a couple of turns faster than Burn, while ANT can reliably win on turn 3 with Past in flames.
    Also, both decks have plenty of ways to deal with your Mindbreak traps (discard or Silence) or Pyrostatic pillar / Tormod (discard or Chain of vapor or Decay).

    Of course you can win the game anyways: they could have horrible hands/draws, they could beat themselves with their own hands (it happens pretty often with inexperienced TES players), you could take them by surprise with Volcanic fallout on goblins, sometimes they could have no answers to your hate...
    ...but if you meet a good storm player who is NOT extremely unlucky, you should lose.

  19. #219
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Congratulations.

    Few questions : how is that one MD Bridge working? how is split of Pillars and Traps working? isn't 4 REB/Pyros not to much? was there any game you wished you had mass creature damage like Fallout or Cave In?

    I start to think Faeries are not so good, especially against Dredge. I think I will come back to Cages/Crypts.

  20. #220
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by AmokPL View Post
    Congratulations.

    Few questions : how is that one MD Bridge working? how is split of Pillars and Traps working? isn't 4 REB/Pyros not to much? was there any game you wished you had mass creature damage like Fallout or Cave In?

    I start to think Faeries are not so good, especially against Dredge. I think I will come back to Cages/Crypts.
    I am really liking the MD Bridge, it seems like my friend above said, that it comes in almost all match ups, and I went over an idea of all the decks in Legacy and the majority of them are decks I want Ensnaring Bridge in for, they can either be a silver bullet, or at least slow a creature heavy opponent down for a turn while I burn them. The 1 mainboard is something I'm growing very fond of and I find the amount of times I would see a 1 of against the very few amount of decks that it is bad against, really doesn't hurt the quality of the card when it can literally win an entire game when it comes down game 1 versus a lot of decks who don't expect it.

    I am still testing the split of Pillars and Traps, and I'm liking the results, the real reason for the split, is so I can bring one of them in for other match ups, I want my sideboard to have a lot of versatile options against many different decks, for example the Tormod's Crypt coming in against RUG, can be very good, but its mostly there for the Dredge match up.

    My Faeries are there because I believe they are the best answer to a reanimator opponent with Iona. I have the Tormod's as a 1 of so I can bring it in against other decks and I find it a lot better against Dredge than I do the Faeries, but the Faeries are still good against Dredge. I want eloquent and versatile answers to many decks, and I want to surprise myself by seeing the potential for good from cards that originally are there to only beat a certain match up. So my plan is to build interesting sideboards, and test through experience, and surprise myself with cards that seem to be all stars because they can come in against 3 decks, when maybe they were only assumed to be good against 1.

    Edit:
    To touch on the sweepers momentarily, I really didn't see a match up where I would have wanted them on that particular day, but I always keep in mind where something may have been good and am up for change. I find that paying that much for a spell, I want it to win the game in burn, and that is where my Ensnaring Bridge slot is.

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