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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Burn

  1. #21

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Hi, you all,

    I'd like to discuss certain maindeck cards that i've found very good in testing:

    (i) 1 Barbarian Ring, whatever be your list, with Grim Lavamancer or not, it is always useful, versatile, and non-counterable.

    (ii) 3 Grim Lavamancer, not 4. It's is a bad hand when are 2 Grim Lavamancer in your initial hand or firsts draws, and you have no cemetery to feed them. One of them become useless.

    (iii) 3 Fireblast, not 4. This maybe sound weird or just silly. Besides the same reason I said about Grim Lavamancer above, sometimes it is hard to draw the 4 mountains. 3 have been worked to me.

    (iv) Searing Blaze. What a card. I was skeptic about this card until I've tested it. Removal and Guaranteed Damage at the same time, 6 damage for two. To use it properly, I run 12 fetchlands. There is no reason to place this card in Side Board. This applies too for the 4 Flamebreak in Side Board.

    (v) 1 or 2 Dangerous Wager. I'm not convinced, but sometimes this give you the extra gas to win; and most important, it is not just card advantage in exchange of tempo. It allows you to draw again another good card like 4 Price of Progress instead a Incinerate, for example.

    ***

    For reference, now I'm playing something like this:

    7 Mountain
    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Barbarian Ring

    4 Goblin Guide
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    1 Hellspark Elemental

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    3 Fireblast

    4 Searing Blaze
    3 Sulfuric Vortex
    2 Dangerous Wager

    SB
    4 Flamebreak
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    3 Shattering Spree
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Flamebreak
    Last edited by EdsonDettoni; 04-26-2013 at 01:13 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by EdsonDettoni View Post
    Hi, you all,

    I'd like to discuss certain maindeck cards that i've found very good in testing:

    (i) 1 Barbarian Ring, whatever be your list, with Grim Lavamancer or not, it is always useful, versatile, and non-counterable.

    (ii) 3 Grim Lavamancer, not 4. It's is a bad hand when are 2 Grim Lavamancer in your initial hand or firsts draws, and you have no cemetery to feed them. One of them become useless.

    (iii) 3 Fireblast, not 4. This maybe sound weird or just silly. Besides the same reason I said about Grim Lavamancer above, sometimes it is hard to draw the 4 mountains. 3 have been worked to me.

    (iv) Searing Blaze. What a card. I was skeptic about this card until I've tested it. Removal and Guaranteed Damage at the same time, 6 damage for two. To use it properly, I run 12 fetchlands. There is no reason to place this card in Side Board. This applies too for the 4 Flamebreak in Side Board.

    (v) 1 or 2 Dangerous Wager. I'm not convinced, but sometimes this give you the extra gas to win; and most important, it is not just card advantage in exchange of tempo. It allows you to draw again another good card like 4 Price of Progress instead a Incinerate, for example.

    ***

    For reference, now I'm playing something like this:

    7 Mountain
    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Barbarian Ring

    4 Goblin Guide
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    1 Hellspark Elemental

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    3 Fireblast

    4 Searing Blaze
    3 Sulfuric Vortex
    2 Dangerous Wager

    SB
    4 Flamebreak
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    3 Shattering Spree
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Flamebreak
    I am sceptical of (i), but it is always worth testing anything that might be good. I appreciate (ii) and I've found that 3 has never been an issue for me, as for 4 being a situation I am feeling like I have too many with. in terms of (iii), I run 4 because I run 8 mountains and find that if I have to, I will eventually cast all 4 in a game. If I were to run the Barbarian Ring, I would most likely go to 3 Fireblast but I feel like running Barbarian Ring with Grim Lavamancer just can't be consistent, although most people do try to get rid of your Grim Lavamancer as fast as possible. I would rather run other damage spells or something that has reach over Dangerous Wager just because of its awkward situations, for example having 2 in your hand forcing your first 7 to be a mulligan, and then casting it for 2 only to get a spell you can't cast like Price of Progress if you are on 3 mountains.

  3. #23
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Could people give me some understanding about why Needle Drop is never used in burn lists? I understand the 1 damage for 1 mana might seem underwhelming even with the cantrip. However, I'd like to compare needle drop to Flame Rift, which is usually considered pretty good and even borderline staple for many lists. Flame rift is 4 damage for 2 mana, and needle drop really is turning any of your 1cc 3 damage spells into a (one-sided) flame rift. From this point of view the card seems very acceptable to me.
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  4. #24

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    I follow your logic, but Flame Rift is one card and is not a dead card unless you are losing the damage race. The problem with Needle Drop is that it will be a dead card much more often because it requires a combo with another burn spell. Unlike Flame Rift, Needle Drop cannot win the game for you when you are in topdeck mode with an empty hand. Many Burn games involve emptying your hand and getting into topdeck mode with the opponent at 4 life or less. That's why I'm not thrilled with playing spells that cannot win you the game immediately with a top deck. That's why I don't like Vexing Devil, either.
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    I follow your logic, but Flame Rift is one card and is not a dead card unless you are losing the damage race. The problem with Needle Drop is that it will be a dead card much more often because it requires a combo with another burn spell. Unlike Flame Rift, Needle Drop cannot win the game for you when you are in topdeck mode with an empty hand.
    While a valid reason, it's not wholly the reason to not play Needle Drop.

    Not dealing immediate damage is not a desirable quality, true, but it isn't a debilitating factor. Rift Bolt pops the turn after, Keldon Marauders takes two turns to get off two damage, Goblin Guide in general. The infinitely larger problem with Needle Drop is that it draws you a card. That may seem like a nifty factor, but it's actually far from good. If Needle Drop tutored you a 1cc 3 damage burn spell, it'd be fantastic and effectively 4 damage for 2 mana. Alas, it does not. Sure, it may draw into one, but it also stands too good of a chance of drawing you a Mountain instead.

  6. #26

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by JPettie View Post
    I am sceptical of (i), but it is always worth testing anything that might be good. I appreciate (ii) and I've found that 3 has never been an issue for me, as for 4 being a situation I am feeling like I have too many with. in terms of (iii), I run 4 because I run 8 mountains and find that if I have to, I will eventually cast all 4 in a game. If I were to run the Barbarian Ring, I would most likely go to 3 Fireblast but I feel like running Barbarian Ring with Grim Lavamancer just can't be consistent, although most people do try to get rid of your Grim Lavamancer as fast as possible. I would rather run other damage spells or something that has reach over Dangerous Wager just because of its awkward situations, for example having 2 in your hand forcing your first 7 to be a mulligan, and then casting it for 2 only to get a spell you can't cast like Price of Progress if you are on 3 mountains.
    Thanks for answer, @JPettie,

    - On "(i) 1 Barbarian Ring", I really recommend to test it. On consistency with Grim Lavamancer, it does not hurt you so much when you can't use it after feeding Lavamancer; and that does not happen often.

    - About "(ii) 3 Grim Lavamancer, not 4", I appreciate your feedback. 3 is still working to me.

    - Relating to "(iii) 3 Fireblast, not 4", Now I run 8 mountains (21 total lands), but I'm still prefer to run 3 instead 4. What I'm trying to do it is to reduce all possible inconsistencies, that do not worth the risk. Draw a second Fireblast in the initial hand, it is awkward; and by the time I can cast 3 of it, I'll be dead. But I recognize this is a hard choice. So I'm still testing, and so far by now, it is still working.

    - You where absolutely right on "(v) 1 or 2 Dangerous Wager". To run 2 it is obviously inconsistent, but to run 1 wasn't good neither. Because similar reasons in Needle Drop discussion.

    - On (iv) Searing Blaze, I have to say something additional. Since you MUST target a player AND a creature, it is not a good choice if your meta is full of combo without creatures, I guess.

    - I must add (vi) that in testing where far better to play 21 total lands (8 Mountain and 1 Barbarian Ring), instead 20. To have to play with only one mountain it is fatal.


    ***


    In my list, now I have 2 slots available. 2 Hellspark Elemental are in there now. I will appreciate other suggestions. I'm considering 2 Magma Jet, Incinerate, or Flame Rift.
    Last edited by EdsonDettoni; 04-30-2013 at 10:33 AM.

  7. #27

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Valtrix View Post
    Could people give me some understanding about why Needle Drop is never used in burn lists? I understand the 1 damage for 1 mana might seem underwhelming even with the cantrip. However, I'd like to compare needle drop to Flame Rift, which is usually considered pretty good and even borderline staple for many lists. Flame rift is 4 damage for 2 mana, and needle drop really is turning any of your 1cc 3 damage spells into a (one-sided) flame rift. From this point of view the card seems very acceptable to me.
    Because Needle Drop is bad for 2 reasons:

    1. It never does damage on it's own. It relies on your other spells for it to do any damage, making it a terrible top deck.
    2. Cantrips, whether free or not, are bad in general for Burn. If free Cantrips like Gitaxian Probe are bad, what more a Cantrip that isn't free?

    The reason why Cantrips are bad in Burn is that for a linear deck like Burn, Threat Density (i.e. the ratio of threats to the total number of cards in the deck) is important. In order to maintain Threat Density, Lands will need to be cut in order to make room for Cantrips. If you cut lands, you will find you mulligan more often since ideally you would want at least 2 lands in your opening 7. Having to mulligan more often basically negates the perceived deck-thinning and "improved" card draw quality that Cantrips are supposed to provide.

  8. #28
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Valtrix View Post
    Could people give me some understanding about why Needle Drop is never used in burn lists? I understand the 1 damage for 1 mana might seem underwhelming even with the cantrip. However, I'd like to compare needle drop to Flame Rift, which is usually considered pretty good and even borderline staple for many lists. Flame rift is 4 damage for 2 mana, and needle drop really is turning any of your 1cc 3 damage spells into a (one-sided) flame rift. From this point of view the card seems very acceptable to me.
    Just a little flaw in your logic, you are assuming that needle drop would draw a 3 (1cc) damage burn always.

    The randomness of what you would draw is not a risk RDW can take as this deck needs to deal 20 fast!
    To force or not to force? That is the question.

  9. #29

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Been reading the primer, and gold fishing on Cockatrice, turn 5/6 kill (always assume PoP is 4 damage). Would appreciate some feedback on this list. I've been inclined to go the straight mountain, no fetches (no grim), no grim (lag), no vexing devil (opponent's choice) due to the comments made here. I'm not in love with this, as I feel the number of permanents are off slightly (remember reading that 12 is a good number). Any help would be appreciated. My meta is full of Storm-combo, UW Miracles, RUG, Sneak'n'Show, with a modest but smaller number of Maverick, Jund, BUG, Esper-Blade, almost never Goblins, Elves, Enchantress, Lands, Fish.

    MD
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Hellspark Elemental
    4 Sulfuric Vortex
    3 Pyrostatic Pillar
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Flame Rift
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Fireblast
    4 Lightning Bolt
    17 Mountain

    Side-Board
    2 REB
    2 Volcanic Fallout
    2 Pyrokinesis
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Smash to Smithereens
    4 Mindbreak Trap

  10. #30

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Random missive about deck building:
    Is there a place for Blood Moon in the 75?

    Is there a place for Simian Spirit Guide in the 75?

  11. #31
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Random missive about deck building:
    Is there a place for Blood Moon in the 75?

    Is there a place for Simian Spirit Guide in the 75?
    Blood Moon is a card that can singlehandedly win games against the right decks. Unfortunately, it doesn't deal damage, it tops out the curve, sucks in multiples, and is useless mid-late game. If you're ok with the above, which many are, tossing 1x in the sideboard can be one of the most clutch things you've ever done.

    Simian Spirit Guide, Moxen, etc, are the most useless things in Burn. Having that turn 3/4 win is awesome, but realistically it doesn't matter how fast you win so long as you do. Simian Spirit Guide and all its acceleration brethren deny you of cards and ultimately slow the deck down as you have less damage done.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post

    Blood Moon is a card that can singlehandedly win games against the right decks. Unfortunately, it doesn't deal damage, it tops out the curve, sucks in multiples, and is useless mid-late game. If you're ok with the above, which many are, tossing 1x in the sideboard can be one of the most clutch things you've ever done.

    Simian Spirit Guide, Moxen, etc, are the most useless things in Burn. Having that turn 3/4 win is awesome, but realistically it doesn't matter how fast you win so long as you do. Simian Spirit Guide and all its acceleration brethren deny you of cards and ultimately slow the deck down as you have less damage done.
    It's also worth stating that most decks that run basics fetch them first vs burn because of pop anyway. Those that don't usually counter/decay it.
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  13. #33
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Random missive about deck building:
    Is there a place for Blood Moon in the 75?

    Is there a place for Simian Spirit Guide in the 75?

    There's no room or reason to run either in burn. You just want consistent damage. Ramp and mana denial dont help the deck win more.

    Move the pyrostatic pillars to the sideboard. You only really want them against combo.

    You definitely do NOT want Pyrokinesis. Its worse than shock since you have to exile a red card which is going to be doing at least 2 damage. You should not have any cards worth exiling to it in your deck.

    You are not making good use of your land base. You could either have 2 barbarian rings, or 4 grim lavamancers and 8-12 fetchlands. I'd suggest the lavamancer personally. He single-handedly beats entire archtypes (tribal), and is great against any DRS deck, and usually gets you the most damage per card over the course of the game. Also, 18-20 lands is the right number. Especially if you are running maindeck vortexes.

    Sulfuric vortex is really really good, but 3 is probably a better a number, at least maindeck. If you dont have to cut anything to fix your mana base and stuff, then leave 4, but I would probably go down to 3.

  14. #34

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    @TheArchitect- Thanks for your advice. If you'd humor me and forgo the fetches and Grims for the moment- I move the Pillars to the SB, dropping 2 Psychokinesis, and drop one Sulfuric Vortex from the MD, that leaves me with 4 slots to fill. 2 if I include 2 Barbarian Rings. Go to a play set of rings? Or which two cards should fill the gap?

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    @TheArchitect- Thanks for your advice. If you'd humor me and forgo the fetches and Grims for the moment- I move the Pillars to the SB, dropping 2 Psychokinesis, and drop one Sulfuric Vortex from the MD, that leaves me with 4 slots to fill. 2 if I include 2 Barbarian Rings. Go to a play set of rings? Or which two cards should fill the gap?
    +1-2xLand and Keldon Marauders and/or Volcanic Fallout/Flamebreak?

  16. #36

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    +1-2xLand and Keldon Marauders and/or Volcanic Fallout/Flamebreak?
    Obv. answer is usually correct answer (going with +2 v. fallout.) Thanks @iamajellydonut.

    P.S.- what kind of jelly? Or is that some sicko sex thing???

  17. #37
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Been reading the primer, and gold fishing on Cockatrice, turn 5/6 kill (always assume PoP is 4 damage). Would appreciate some feedback on this list. I've been inclined to go the straight mountain, no fetches (no grim), no grim (lag), no vexing devil (opponent's choice) due to the comments made here. I'm not in love with this, as I feel the number of permanents are off slightly (remember reading that 12 is a good number). Any help would be appreciated. My meta is full of Storm-combo, UW Miracles, RUG, Sneak'n'Show, with a modest but smaller number of Maverick, Jund, BUG, Esper-Blade, almost never Goblins, Elves, Enchantress, Lands, Fish.

    MD
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Hellspark Elemental
    4 Sulfuric Vortex
    3 Pyrostatic Pillar
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Flame Rift
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Fireblast
    4 Lightning Bolt
    17 Mountain

    Side-Board
    2 REB
    2 Volcanic Fallout
    2 Pyrokinesis
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Smash to Smithereens
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    Considering your meta as you said it is the most I can work with and I will attempt to give reasoning for everything I suggest as follows.

    I will evaluate your concerns in steps of each rampant deck in your meta that you have described.

    "Storm-combo"

    This matchup is always dire in my opinion, you have to hope to do enough damage to make it hard for them to cast Ad Nauseam or have the Mindbreak Trap and hope they don't have the silence as an answer. They are simply quicker than you most times. I can see reason for your 3 main-board Pyrostatic Pillars, but they will be dead in a lot of match-ups where you could have cast a more relevant spell. Usually a storm deck can go off turn 1 and if you don't have the Mindbreak Trap because you kept a hand with Pyrostatic Pillar then you would be dead in the water. Storm has many variants and I would consider which Storm is local to your meta, if it is Belcher, than I would consider Reroute as a sideboard option, along with Ingot Chewer as a way to stop them if they get risky and play the Belcher a turn before they can activate it. I would consider the amount of hate you put into your deck versus 1 deck type if you want to still not be losing to other archetypes.

    "UW Miracles"

    The match-up here is determined by what you mean by the deck name, and I would assume it is some sort of counter-top archetype, but I could be wrong. In the terms of it being what I assume it is, I would suggest some number of Vexing Shusher because a top with counterbalance can be very hard to beat as a Burn deck. I would also consider disrupting their Sensei's Divining Tops with Ingot Chewer because it is uncounter-able. Running a card like Ensnaring Bridge if their way of winning is a miracle angel variant can be very hard for them to deal with other than their usual 1 of Detention Sphere. With Vexing Shushers the match-up can often be much more favorable for you because they are usually a slower deck that relies on countering everything you do, without that plan, they lose the race to your combo deck.

    "RUG"

    I would assume this match-up is why you are running a lot of board wipers, especially uncounter-able ones at that, and why there are a lot of blasts in your sideboard. I don't mind this and I think it could be the correct way to deal with the match-up, playing around their counters and not running fetches making their Stifles dead. I don't have much advice on this match-up and I think you are correct in your choices.

    "Sneak'n'Show"

    This match-up is also very hard to deal with, referencing the storm match-up. I would suggest some number of Ensnaring Bridge or something like Angel of Despair to deal with their Show and Tells, along with some number of Pithing Needle to stop their Sneak Attack. Pithing Needle can also be very good against a lot of miscellaneous cards in Legacy and a decent 2 of in a sideboard. I play test against a Sneak'n'Show deck myself with Burn and I find their plan against Burn is to take out Show and Tell and put in Through the Breach if they know you are running Ensnaring Bridge. The match-up is not an easy one but if you can resolve a Ensnaring Bridge it can be very hard for them to win. I am still not sure if 4 of Sulfuric Vortex is the right number, I currently run 3 and I find that when they lay down a Griselbrand and you have Sulfuric Vortex they just simply can't draw cards or they will lose to a Fireblast. I find Sulfuric Vortex to also be very good in this match-up.

    Other "modest" amounts of decks

    I find Burn has a good match-up against a lot of the ones you have mentioned and you can choose whether to include other cards you notice that might be good against those decks, but usually if you can clear their creatures from the board or resolve an Ensnaring Bridge or Sulfuric Vortex, it can be very hard for them to win. Ingot Chewer is also especially good against cards like Batterskull and Umezawa's Jitte.

    Concerning suggestions given

    I would only consider fetches and Grim Lavamancer if your meta is heavy on creature based decks or tribal decks where it would be very efficient to run and also run some number of Searing Blaze, but with the meta you described, and considering RUG being around, I like the idea of running just basic mountains and speed to keep your deck well rounded against all the quicker decks like storm and not have dead draws or lose a Mountain to Stifle. Barbarian Ring can definitely win games and is good sometimes, but I find it pretty hard to run when it loses to Stifle and Wasteland in a deck that wants to be as efficient as possible and take advantage of that fact by running just basics and making your opponents cards dead. It can be especially contradictory to the strategy of Burn when you reach the awkward moment when you can't cast your first or second Fireblast off it and lose a game because of it. I can definitely see reason for playing it but I like to be very precise and safe when creating a competitive deck-list.

    I will leave you with a suggestive deck-list according to your concerns and good luck playing Burn!

    Mainboard:

    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Hellspark Elemental

    4 Sulfuric Vortex

    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Flame Rift
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt

    4 Price of Progress
    4 Fireblast
    4 Lightning Bolt

    20 Mountain


    Sideboard:

    4 Mindbreak Trap
    3 Vexing Shusher
    3 Ingot Chewer
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Pithing Needle

  18. #38
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Anyone tried Faithless Looting in burn? Seems useful with Grim Lavamancer and Hellspark Elementals.
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  19. #39
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by ThoSha View Post
    Anyone tried Faithless Looting in burn? Seems useful with Grim Lavamancer and Hellspark Elementals.
    Other than feeding Grim and maybe getting a lucky Hellspark off it and only having 1 activation of it available, it just seems like a bad draw when you get to turn 6 and all you need is a burn spell to kill them, especially when you are in top deck mode and can't keep any of the cards you draw off it.

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by ThoSha View Post
    Anyone tried Faithless Looting in burn? Seems useful with Grim Lavamancer and Hellspark Elementals.
    It's a really, really, really bad idea.

    1) It's a disgusting loss of tempo.
    2) It can often turn into outright card disadvantage.
    3) Especially since you'll need to pitch land to it, you'll likely never be able to pay its flashback cost.
    4) It's literally the worst topdeck ever. Ever.
    5) If you need cards so desperately for Grim Lavamancer, you're probably already doing it wrong.
    6) Hellspark? Really?

    If you need to fill this slot or this need, there's nothing that Faithless Looting does that Magma Jets doesn't already do better.

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