Is Vexing Shusher any good against Miracles? Somehow I feel like having odd CMC spells is better.
Vexing Shusher can be quite strong against U/W Control, but the card doesn't have a large amount of play against other archetypes.Originally Posted by akatsuki
If you really want to beat Miracles, another card to consider would be Shrine of Burning Rage or Sulfuric Vortex. It's the sustained damage sources that are hard for miracles to beat.
1-2 Drop'd in Philly
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
10 Mountains
1 Taiga
9fetchlands
Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Destructive Revelry
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Vexing Shusher
R1 RUG Delver, 2-0
He won the die roll, but I was ahead the whole time both games.
R2 U/R Swiftspear, 0-2
Totally winnable match up. I know what I did wrong here.
R3 Esper Stoneblade 0-2
Here's where I could use some feedback...
Pretty sure this isn't a great match up for Burn, but haven't played against it a lot. He played 4 StP (3 plus a SCMage) the first game. I got him to 3 before going hellbent. I top deck Lava Spike but he had Counterspell. Batterskull comes online and blah blah blah...
Game 2 I lose 3 Rift Bolt, 1 PoP, and 1 Eidolon for 3 Destructive Revelry, Vexing Shusher, and Sulfuric Vortex. I was never really in it. He takes my Revelry with an Inquisition and runs wild with Jitte.
With the sideboard I have, I'm thinking it would have been better to lose 4 Goblin Guide, 3 Rift Bolt, and add in 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 3 Destructive Revelry, and Vortex. I did miss Searing effects this week... I'll have to find room in the board for a couple.
So what have people had success with against Esperblade?
Volcanic Fallout is very good right now.
THREAT
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
- 12
BURN
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
2 Searing Blood
2 Volcanic Fallout
- 28
MANA
20 Mountain
- 20
SIDEBOARD
4 Pithing Needle
2 Searing Blood
1 Smash to Smithereens
4 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Volcanic Fallout
As a Blade player I've developed a healthy fear of the red mages. Most of the time, they blast through my control elements with redundancy and bring my life total down to zero in classical fashion. I don't even test my own Burn vs Esperblade matchup any longer, as it seems pointless.1-2 Drop'd in Philly
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
10 Mountains
1 Taiga
9
Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Destructive Revelry
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Vexing Shusher
R1 RUG Delver, 2-0
He won the die roll, but I was ahead the whole time both games.
R2 U/R Swiftspear, 0-2
Totally winnable match up. I know what I did wrong here.
R3 Esper Stoneblade 0-2
Here's where I could use some feedback...
Pretty sure this isn't a great match up for Burn, but haven't played against it a lot. He played 4 StP (3 plus a SCMage) the first game. I got him to 3 before going hellbent. I top deck Lava Spike but he had Counterspell. Batterskull comes online and blah blah blah...
Game 2 I lose 3 Rift Bolt, 1 PoP, and 1 Eidolon for 3 Destructive Revelry, Vexing Shusher, and Sulfuric Vortex. I was never really in it. He takes my Revelry with an Inquisition and runs wild with Jitte.
With the sideboard I have, I'm thinking it would have been better to lose 4 Goblin Guide, 3 Rift Bolt, and add in 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 3 Destructive Revelry, and Vortex. I did miss Searing effects this week... I'll have to find room in the board for a couple.
So what have people had success with against Esperblade?
There are a lot of different Esper builds out there, and one thing they differ on is the number of basic lands played. You're looking at anywhere from 0-8 basic lands in the deck, with 3-4 most likely. I don't think you should have boarded out Price of Progress against the three-color deck.
Destructive Revelry should certainly come in, and so should Sulfuric Vortex. I disagree that Rift Bolt should be removed for these. A suspended Rift Bolt can have an inhibiting effect on Stoneforge Mystic and affect what equipment is searched up with it. Goblin Guide I agree should come out, and I think Lava Spike is the least of the burn spells in this situation.
I also think you're right to identify the lack of Searing Blaze/Blood as the major problem for this particular matchup. It's a whole lot harder to connect with a Jitte or drop a Batterskull when the creatures keep dying, and the redundancy of having another way to deal with equipment when the first is countered/discarded is very nice to have.
It definitely sounds like that Esper player had pretty wonderful hands against you in those games though, right down to the Inquisition instead of Thoughtseize and 1-2 of Counterspell vs. fatal Lava Spike.
This feels true. Especially since casting Fallout gives your Swiftspear enough prowess to survive.
Thank you for your insight!
My opponent and I discussed the matchup afterwards. Apparently he has a ton of practice against Burn from playing online. The only card he had that could deal with a Bridge once it clears the stack is a single copy of Council's Judgment. He ran 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Inquisition maindeck with a single copy of each in the board. He takes out the Thoughtseize against Burn and adds the 3rd Inquisition (makes sense).
My opponent agreed with you that shaving a PoP was wrong. Game 1 he had 4 basics and a Tundra when he was at 5 life. PoP was the only card in my hand. I had hoped he would play a fetch into a nonbasic and hand me the win... EoT I played PoP for 2 damage and relied on the Heart of the Cards to top deck a 3 damage spell.
Good to know this isn't a terrible match up and that my opponent's good hands were a big factor!
Monastery Swiftspear is working good? i have struggles with it, i think is too straightforward strategy, whit even less option to the error and more predictable. And i feel "hopeless" without Lavamancer
It is difficult to decisively say whether Goblin Guide or Swiftspear is better in Burn. Playing either turn 1 and following up with two 3-damage/1-mana spells puts your opponent at 10. Swiftspear does it without giving your opponent potentially 2 lands. BUT sometimes the information you get from Guide helps too.
I suppose since the third week since it went legal is just beginning, it would be appropriate to say it needs more testing.
I like it though, whatever that's worth...
well for me Guide is very usefull card, it is always given me valuable information, but i am not a player that think a cc1 bolt cards should be played in t1 and for that reason i have my doubts about monastery swiftspear, i have to adjust my way of play to that card and that for me is a great change in the way i see and play this deck; aim for the dome never was my way
What do you think of this combination
Monastery + Young + Eidilon + Firedancer?
You cast an instant and you have any of their combination:
Monastery has prowess
Young will give you an extra dude
eidilon, well it kicks you for two
firedancer makes your spell acts like a searing blaze.
TJB
http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^
TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)
UR Storm: 37th of 950 players at GP Guangzhou 2016 (Modern)
I would worry that with 16 creatures in the deck I might not have that many spells to trigger them, or I might draw and play the spells before I get to the synergistic creatures.
Maybe it can work, it just seems like a tricky situation.
Simply put it was great but not for burn, I switched back to RoP in case real hate needs to be brought out.
As for all these new creatures ya'll are rolling out, I look forward to hearing about real tournament results but fear that you're taking away from the decks intended purpose. Aside from GG, the only creatures the deck runs are for both control and extra damage ( GL and EotGR ) not pure damage.
Last edited by Annie Bot; 10-16-2014 at 10:34 PM.
Hello everyone. I've been playing Burn in Modern and I'm wanting to play Burn in Legacy because why not? I played it the previous weekend before last and I lost pretty readily to UR Delver that was a direct copy of the winning list on SCG. I probably played wrong, because I've read that this MU is suppose to be in our favor. Anyway, my meta is filled with Dredge, Reanimator with Petals, Miracles Losset and BBD builds, and ANT/TES. There are some fair decks hopping around like Dark Maverick, Stoneblade, and various Delver builds. With UR Delver winning the most recent SCG event before SCG in Oakland, people will be playing it or decks that prey upon it. I'm wanting to build a bit of Burn deck that is good for this type of meta.
First the deck I used at that tournament:
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
3 Searing Blaze
3 Price of Progress
3 Flame Rift
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
10 Mountain
9 red fetches
Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Shattering Spree
1 Searing Blood
1 Searing Blaze
First thing I didn't like was the Flame Rift. It seemed to give the Delver player a leg to stand on while I played against him. So, I want to cut this completely from the list. No questions about it, just done. Second thing, was my sideboard was complete trash and needs to be reworked. Third thing, what can I use to replace Flame Rift in the main and what should I run in the side? Fourth thing was was that I have drawn into multiple copies of Fireblast and became a sad panda. The decks that immediately come to mind that kill UR Delver are Jund, Miracles, and Shardless BUG. PoP are great against Jund and BUG, terrible against Miracles. Vortex is good against all three. Am I wrong in thinking Jund, Miracles, and BUG will show up in force to kill UR Delver with Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise? What other decks should I be preparing for and what cards should I use main and side for these?
So far, this is what I've come up with:
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
9 Mountain
10 red fetches
Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Shattering Spree
2 Searing Blood
2 Ensnaring Bridge
Is this any good? Can I forgo the Surgical Extractions, because I fear that if I do, Dredge will kill me. However, if I do let it go, I can bring in another Ensnaring Bridge and Mindbreak Trap to shore up a possible pairing with Show and Tell and Storm decks.
I don't feel like I can get rid of artifact hate though. Jitte, BSkull, and Cranial plating sort of ruin my day. Sure Vortex stops life gain, but the pumps and beats race me and I would like to cut them at the knees. However, should I trade them for Smash to Smithereens?
Should I move Searing Blood into the main, and keep the four Searing Blaze? I could make space by removing a Fireblast and PoP. Details against Death and Taxes as well, would be much appreciated.
So I've been goldfishing a WR burn list lately with Monestary Swiftspear, and I'm liking the results. My only actual matches so far have been against Lands, though, so take that for what it's worth!
This build is all about making your first 3 turns as explosive as possible and then finishing the opponent off in topdeck mode. Cheap cards are preferred over long game cards.
1. Why white?
This question is probably answered various times in this thread, but it's basically for two cards: Disenchant and Boros Charm. The former stops you from auto-losing to things like Chalice or Leyline, and the latter is a fine replacement for Flame Rift that very occasionally squeezes an extra point of damage out of a Swiftspear and, in a pinch, can save a dork.
2. Why not Lavamancer?
I'm totally on the fence about this. I get the value Lavamancer gives the red deck, and I get the need to clear early ground dorks, but he's very, very slow. My goldfish is a win on turn 3 or 4 pretty normally, and this would be much slower with Lavamancer. If he had haste, we could talk, but as it sits he is just a finisher for the long game.
3. Why Swiftspear?
This card is totally amazing in burn and I doubt those who poo-poo it have really tried it out. You are playing a deck where you will be tossing spells out there for damage every turn. That means Spear is basically GG 5-8, and that gives your early ground pounders a level of consistency that is amazing. Remember, your first turn 2/2 haste dork is going to translate R into somewhere between 2 and 6 damage over the course of the early game.
4. Thunderous Wrath? Really?
Yes. And here's why: this deck wants to prey on variance and get lucky with explosive draws that burn out your opponent before they can react. Wrath is 5 to the dome for 1, giving you the opportunity for very quick kills and a way to hit your opponent for lethal even if they think they're out of burn range. Sure, its a dead card in your opening hand, but anywhere else it is amazing.
So here's what I'm tinkering with:
Creatures (10)
-----------
4 Goblin Guide
4 Swiftspear
2 Spark Elemental
Burn (33)
-----------
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Boros Charm
1 Flame Rift
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Thunderous Wrath
Anti-burn hate (2)
----------
2 Skullcrack / Vortex, another 2 in the board. I lean agaist Vortex given the low mana count of this build.
Lands (16)
-----------
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
7 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
-------------
2 Skullcrack / Vortex
3 Stingscourger
3 Disenchant
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap
The board is targeted at doing two things: giving us outs to people who board in specific burn hate like Leyline or COP:Red, and giving us free answers to decks that potentially can kill faster than we can, namely: dredge/reanimator, charbelcher, and Show and Tell. Merfolk, Goblins, and Affinity might also be reasonable sideboard targets, too.
Anyone tried something similar?
I'm an advocate for running no fewer than twenty lands in the deck. Playing around soft counters can be pivotal. I will probably keep playing four Fireblast for a while, but I'm interested in everyone's opinion on Price of Progress. I love seeing it against BUG, but a large portion of the format can either operate off of basic lands (ex. Omni-tell) or one or two non-basics (ex. Delver), or they can Wasteland their own non-basics. I would argue that it's one of the more inconsistent cards in the deck, but it can force your opponent to play differently, so it's a bit of a dilemma for me.
I started a thread on RW Burn a while back and you can read about it here.
In my opinion, as long as people are playing Wasteland, I will play mono-red. Even with twenty lands, it can be a devastating. Also, I don't believe speed is necessarily the most important aspect of the deck. There are plenty of combo decks that can win faster, but Burn's strengths are in card advantage and consistency.
Dudes, don't cut Grim Lavamancer. This deck runs out of steam pretty fast, and Grim Lavamancer is a perfect way to deal sustain damage, as well as being great against must-answer creatures, like Stoneforge Mystic, Deathrite and Delver.
The maindeck I'm playing right now is pretty basic:
Lands [20]
8 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures [12]
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide/Monastery Swiftspear (I'm testing each, but Guide has the edge so far)
4 Grim Lavamancer
Spells [28]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Fireblast
Sideboard [15]
4 Ensinaring Bridge
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Relic of Progenitus/Pithing Needle (depends on what I'm expecting to face)
2 Volcanic Fallout
Our worst matchups (I think) are Sneak and Show and Miracles. Ensnaring Bridge are great against them both (shutting off both Entreat and Griselbrand/Emrakul). Also, Sulfuric Vortex is very important against many control decks, especially Miracles.
By playing only four offs, it's pretty simple to sideboard: against basic lands, take out all Price of Progress, against few-creature decks, take all Searing Blazes and some Grim Lavamancers.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I hadn't noticed any other burn players taking an interest in WR variants, its always been BR for more damage + discard, or UR for more control but lets see what ya got.
Explosive first 3 turns sounds enticing, but remember this logic won't carry you very far in a tourney. While burn has elements of combo, it is not pure combo. Maybe Rogue Hermit, TinFins, or SnT fits your playstyle a bit better?
The deck isn't dead to Chalice or Leyline, assuming you mean postboard. Using the combination of both creature and targetless damage for Leyline, and cards like StS or SS for Chalice. But if you're attempting to win in 3 turns every game, I don't see why Chalice is even a concern for you. Disenchant is unnecessary and Boros Charm is not worth a splash opening yourself to wasteland. Burns strength is in it's consistency and being able to avoid as many counters as we can.
GL provides spot removal for must-remove creatures, sustained damage, and possibly targetless damage if attacking head on. I don't know of any lists not running this aside from when EotGR first came out and people we're debating which spot this should replace ( most list dropped GL and SB > FR to 3-of's to allow a 2-of SV ), but if you go to a real tournament you are almost guaranteed to see the need for it.
I'm not sure why you would run this in addition to GG, you're opening yourself up to more creature removal for absolutely no benefit. GG turn 1-2 provides "garunteed" 4 damage. If you drop swiftspear turn 1 you get (at most) 4 damage turn 2 and force yourself into some very bad plays like not being able to Eidolon turn 2 and still gain equivalent damage. As well as not being able to get the benefit of seeing their next draw that you get w/ GG (comparing not adding).
After much much testing the community seemed to come to the consensus that this card was too dangerous to run as even a 1 of. We don't have any deck manipulation and the casting cost is too rich to run the risk of getting it in an opening hand. While you see this risk, I guess you'll just have to have it happen to you and cost you the games before you'll fully understand.
Swiftspear, Spark Elemental, Boros Charm, Flame Rift, Thunderous Wrath, Skullcrack, Plateau, Stingscourger, and Disenchant all need to be removed. A splashed burn deck (as of today) is a worse version of Mono Red (as much as it pains me to say this, being an advocated of BR Burn only to see what really happens).
Leyline and Chalice we're already discussed, for dredge/reanimator/any grave hate we have FM, SE, and RoP. For SnT we have EB and possibly MT and VS (if you VS out an EotGR to punish their deck manipulation or MT if they try to SA or SnT as their 3rd spell of a turn, boarding choices are individual and based on playstyle, EB and VS being my personal two strongest boarders here).
Last edited by Annie Bot; 10-18-2014 at 02:02 PM.
Has any1 tried splashing 1-2 Volcanics into the allready fetch-swarmed manabase and playing 3-4 Treasure Cruise?
Cruise does not Belong in Burn, you should play UR if you want to run it. A topdecked cruise without enough gas in the grave is the last thing this Deck wants to see. Also, you will get vulnerable to Wastelands, and hurt yourself with PoP
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