Hi all, I just recently put Burn together (a pretty stock list: Jim Davis list, except for -1 Searing Blaze +1 Sulfuric Vortex) and I got some questions regarding the SB. Right now it looks like this:
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Searing Blaze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Smash to Smithereens
I was wondering if:
- this would be good enough when playing in an unknown meta?
- I should like to fit Red Elemental Blast in? What should I drop?
- Is Vexing Shusher worth the slots?
I'm completly new to this deck, so any help is appreciated! Thank you in advance
Fair enough, on a more constructive note since you're already going for the TW package might I suggest Vexing Devil as well? Perhaps (if needed) some sort of filtering for both TW and VD such as Faithless Looting main deck or Pyrokinesis in the board?Originally Posted by MaximumC
Pithing Needle and the Shushers are considered flex spots. Some people love the Shushers, I'd be afraid they wouldn't last long enough against the deck we bring them out against (Miracles) to be worth their merit but there are plenty of top 8 plays that the Miracles player didn't have a Path or Terminus for it. I personally run the Ashen Riders since Miracles is already a 50/50 win for Burn. Not sure if REB sees much play now, I believe (and the community can correct me if I'm wrong) the biggest reason it was in the deck before was for Imperial Painter. By all means though try it and see if you like it, no one will give you any grief for running them. If you did run them I'd suggest the flex spot of some mixture of your Pithings and Shushers. Other than that all seems fair for an unknown meta, just remember not to dilute the deck too hard post board and you should do fine. I also wanted to point out that your list doesn't have mindbreak trap, since most combo players will use some form of discard post board this isn't a huge issue just wanted to bring it to your attention.
Last edited by Annie Bot; 11-06-2014 at 04:39 PM. Reason: To comment on Chatto's post.
I'll throw in my 2 cents.
I would up the Ensnaring Bridge count to 3 or 4 (probably 3). The deck we need them for is pretty impossible to beat without having one.
What are you including Pithing Needle for specifically?
I would recommend:
2 Searing Blaze
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast, dedicated combo hate like Mindbreak Trap, or even your Pithing Needles.
This gives you a decent spread against our really tough matchups.
Sneak and Show = 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 2 REB
Dredge = 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 3 Relic
Reanimator = 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 3 Relic
And even our not-so-bad matchups.
Relic is all you need against RUG specifically or Goyf based decks in general
Elves = 2 Searing Blaze, 2 Grafdigger's Cage
D+T = 2 Searing Blaze, 3 Smash to Smithereens
U/R Treasure Cruise = 2 Searing Blaze, 2 REB (pretty specifically for TC)
Beating Miracles isn't so much about having hate cards as it is properly sequencing your spells.
It doesn't seem like you have had too much experience with tempo decks, you look at 1-1 card trades as good for us, and in most cases you're right, but the types of decks that use these counters actually use them to help generate card advantage, I'm talking about tempo. Take RUG for example, if they land any of their creatures against us, and are able to trade one for one with our spells, their creatures will go in for 3 damage, at the least, thats a free lightning bolt, so in conjunction with their soft counters, their creatures are providing an extra cards, in the form of damage. All that while we have to deal with their creatures, and have enough damage left over to do 20 to them. If you choose to neglect their creatures and just race, then you are making their soft counters more effective because they will be stunting your damage out put, and you're still losing the race. Having a wasteland proof mana base, and knowing how to play around soft counters is why burn has a good game against these decks.
Why does all this matter? Because Tempo is a huge part of the meta, being confident that your deck can win off of one mana is foolish, play a complete Tier 1 deck, with a good pilot, and you'll feel the true power of "soft counters".
In the end play what you want man, but realize that the comments aimed at you are derived from experience, and even though it seems like I'm trying to stifle your ideas, I'm just trying to save you time.
@ Annie Bot and Ace/Homebrew; thank you both for your reply. I will definately pick up a third (and maybe even a fourth) Ensnaring Bridge. I will test against Miracles, for I find it a pretty hard MU.
Bridge makes a very interesting sideboard option for Miracles, the few times I've tested bridge against Miracles has been successful, with the exception of a single game where a singleton Keranos bolted me to death. Bridge is great against miracles because it takes away their ability to win out of no where with entreat the angels, and its hard for them to to counterbalance it at CMC 3, so they'll have to have an actual counter for it. If you get a chance you should try it out against RUG, or UWR Delver as well!
I think you misread Chatto's response.
I believe he had two separate and unrelated thoughts.
1.) He will pick up more Ensnaring Bridges.
2.) He will test more against Miracles because it is not an easy matchup.
I wouldn't put in Bridge against Miracles because Sulfuric Vortex is SO good against them and having both raises our curve too much. We can afford to up our curve against Sneak and Show because Show and Tell let us cheat on mana too (and protects our attempt to have Bridge stick to the board).
Miracles is probably closer to a 50/50 matchup then you might believe. It is easy to look at a Miracles list and go, 'oh great... CounterTop, I guess you win' but most Miracles hands require a period of time to assemble the soft lock. A double Goblin Guide hand gets damage in too quick for them to recover and landing a Sulfuric Vortex turn 3 is tough for them to beat.
If you have a friend with Miracles, see if he'll test the match with you. Beating the CounterTop soft lock is certainly more of a challenge. Instants are your best friend and it helps to play them in response to drawing with Top or cracking a fetch when Counterbalance is also on the field.
If Jace hits the board, keep your fetchlands to reset the top card after they fateseal you.
It is also very helpful if you have some way to deal with enchantments... I've been including 1 Taiga maindeck to support 3 Destructive Revelry in the side. Against Miracles you can fetch it up without fear of Wasteland.
Hi I don't have a lot of testing though blazing shoal could be very good maindeck.
Allows more turn three kills and even turn two.
For that you have to play chancellor of the forge which is decent and pyrokinesis which is very good
with all these UR delver in the format and obviously Fireblast.
So you have a zero spell casting cost which can do between 6-7 damage.
Also you can pitch chancellor to pyrokinesis.
4 Blazing Shoal
4 Chancellor of the Forge
4 Fireblast
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Chain Lightning
4 Hellspark Elemental
20 Mountain
Test and report back!
I suspect you'll find:
- Creature removal 3-for-1's you on the Blazing Shoal plan.
- Chancellor of the Forge is uncastable.
- Pyrokinesis can't hit the face.
I had a deck like this once, but it wasn't burn. You can use cards like greater gargadon to use if your creatures are targeted with removal, those non fetch mountains can sac to it and itself can pitch to shoal. We should keep this thread focused on Burn which can still point to the face like Ace said. Shoal and Swiftspear could be something to look into for another deck though!
I think you misread Chatto's response.
I believe he had two separate and unrelated thoughts.
1.) He will pick up more Ensnaring Bridges.
2.) He will test more against Miracles because it is not an easy matchup.
I wouldn't put in Bridge against Miracles because Sulfuric Vortex is SO good against them and having both raises our curve too much. We can afford to up our curve against Sneak and Show because Show and Tell let us cheat on mana too (and protects our attempt to have Bridge stick to the board).
Miracles is probably closer to a 50/50 matchup then you might believe. It is easy to look at a Miracles list and go, 'oh great... CounterTop, I guess you win' but most Miracles hands require a period of time to assemble the soft lock. A double Goblin Guide hand gets damage in too quick for them to recover and landing a Sulfuric Vortex turn 3 is tough for them to beat.
If you have a friend with Miracles, see if he'll test the match with you. Beating the CounterTop soft lock is certainly more of a challenge. Instants are your best friend and it helps to play them in response to drawing with Top or cracking a fetch when Counterbalance is also on the field.
If Jace hits the board, keep your fetchlands to reset the top card after they fateseal you.
It is also very helpful if you have some way to deal with enchantments... I've been including 1 Taiga maindeck to support 3 Destructive Revelry in the side. Against Miracles you can fetch it up without fear of Wasteland.
LOL you're right I did miss read that!
I'm lucky enough to have two miracles lists in my meta, and both are experienced pilots, but I only test against one. Here is an example: During these games I didn't have vexing shusher in the side yet, so Bridges went in while searing blood came out(I ran a fetchless build at that time, lots of Delver decks, and stifles). Also cut down on Price of Progress, for pyro blasts, and I don't bring in smash to smithereens. Any ways it worked well enough, opened with alot of damage, then I fizzled a bit when counter-top comes in. I resolved bridge through counter-top, he council-ed it away, I tried to land Vortex, he hard counters, and we durdled until my hand was big enough, while he digs for a fetch to reset his top three, I try to sequence two damage through two tops, and one counterbalance, and he stopped it all, and won with Jace.
The important thing here is, bridge can(emphasis implied) come in, speaking for myself, I usually have alot of dead cards against them. Plus we can usually hold enough cards to let guide/shusher attack under it without hindering damage output. I agree that this match up isn't as bad as it seems, but the problem is they blank alot of our cards pre board, and post board they have alot more answers, sure we have nut hands but so do they, the guy I play actually leaves in sword against me, and we bluff each other on bridge vs entreat.
What you are saying about playing around the counter-top lock is very relevent, knowing how to sequence your spells is very important, but if they know what they are doing it makes it extremely hard, especially if they are holding extra brainstorms, or have more than one top on the table. Which was the case in alot of games that I've played.
Any thoughts on Susher for this match up?
You mentioned that your Miracles pilot leaves Swords in against you. My understanding is Swords gets left in because they have too many dead cards against us and it has at least *some* application. My experience with Shusher in the matchup is that it eats a Swords or gets Terminus'd away. When I include Shusher in my board (which isn't often) I find it is better against the Delver decks.
When playing Miracles I like to leave in the creatures that guarantee damage. So hastey guys and Eidolon. I also keep in most, if not all, Price of Progress. Yes Miracles runs several basics. But the fetches are also used to put new cards on top of the library to exploit with SDTop. If their board is Island, Island, Plains, Fetch, Fetch, Top; use Price! It nets at least 2 damage (when they crack the fetches to avoid taking 4) and it limits their abuse of Top. Price also puts them in a lousy situation as their life total approaches 0. Each fetch on the board is a virtual 1 life lost. They also start to realize FoW isn't as good when it costs 1 life to use.
If your meta is flooded with Miracles and light on Deathrite Shaman, one of the best cards you can use is Hellspark Elemental. If it resolves, it's a lightning bolt. But if it gets CouterTop'd or hard-countered, the next turn you unearth it and all they can do is hope to be holding a Swords.
I agree with the Hellspark suggestion, the problem is there are also three bug decks that run Deathrite :( but even then, its usually not a problem for me, Deathrite is something that I will always kill, even if there is no creatures in the yard, its worth it to keep them off of mana, any ways Hellspark does alot of work, I ended up taking him out for forked bolt, and now Treasure Cruise.
I'll keep in mind what you said about Price, it comes in handy as well, when trying to sequence your spells through Counter-Top.
I think Shusher is a misunderstood card, every time I've boarded in Shusher, I only play him if I can get some use out of him during that turn cycle, it usually goes Shusher, into Fireblast, counter balance trigger, top activation, make fireblast uncounterable, they hard counter in response, I activate shusher again, and game! Well this actually only happened once, I usually don't see shusher:)
Now what I really need in put for is Death and taxes, I have not actually played a full list(there are a few proxied lists, but pilots are modern players, and haven't mastered the deck yet) with my burn deck, there was a guy with the complete deck who have been playing it for years, but I only played him with tezzerator, and never saw him again.
Jup, sorry for not being all to clearI think you misread Chatto's response.
I believe he had two separate and unrelated thoughts.
1.) He will pick up more Ensnaring Bridges.
2.) He will test more against Miracles because it is not an easy matchup.
(...)
It is also very helpful if you have some way to deal with enchantments... I've been including 1 Taiga maindeck to support 3 Destructive Revelry in the side. Against Miracles you can fetch it up without fear of Wasteland.
I was wondering if it was possible to splash, I will look into it... I like to have some cards against enchantments.
I completely misunderstood Vexing Shusher. The way I thought it worked is you pay one red/green extra and your spell being cast can't be countered by spells or abilties, i.e. in general so not for each spell or ablity separately. Makes me reconsider Vexing Shusher in general.
Yeah I wish it was worded 'the next spell you play' but its not, its still the only guaranteed way to break through counter-top. I'm keeping him in because I've lost enough games with my opponent within bolt range.
The way they explained it was a little confusing. Vexing Shusher does prevent all counters from countering the spell you Shushered with - the issue they were describing was when you spell, they counter, you shusher, they counter again, and you have to shusher one last time because all this is taking place in the stack (or the counterbalance interaction being shusher before counterbalance resolution, they counter again, you shusher again). Shusher can only prevent all counters after resolution, so if they have a counter on top of your activation their counter will go through before your activation.Jup, sorry for not being all to clear
I completely misunderstood Vexing Shusher. The way I thought it worked is you pay one red/green extra and your spell being cast can't be countered by spells or abilties, i.e. in general so not for each spell or ablity separately. Makes me reconsider Vexing Shusher in general.
Each advocate for shusher stated their intended purpose was only to have him last for one turn within bolt/fireblast range which I agree is the most appropriate way to use him if you're going to use him due to all of their creature removal (generally package of 7-8 with a possible 10-12 flashing back with Snapcast Mage). Because of this extremely limited use and the general conception that "best player wins" in Burn vs. Miralces aside from nut hands this is why I recommended the Ashen Riders. They are able to come in for a few different combo decks and make what would be an unwinnable game 'easily' won (EB suffers from bounce and general removal). In the end you just gotta weigh the pros and cons of each and decide if you want one, the other, or neither for your flex spots though.
As for splashing, splashing in burn for the most part is considered a no-go. It makes the deck a lot worse with little if any relevant benefit. The exception to this rule is the 1-of Taiga Ace / Homebrew mentioned where you have enchantment hate in the board (something burn has been craving for a very long time). This is what also attracted me to BR burn running Taiga and Badlands for Abrupt Decay. If you're going to go w/ the splash the gentler touch of Taiga for Destructive Revelry is strictly better. Sadly Bump in the Night and Tyrant's Choice pose more risk than perceived reward. Spashs have been tried for U as well, but tournament results show this is also just a weaker burn deck. Splashs for W have recently been tried by Maximum C, just a few pages back - he has local tourney postings and issues have been debated. Believe that covers all the colors.
I wish I had more to offer to the thread than opinions and rehashing, hopefully I can find us the next diamond in the rough when Fate Reforged gets spoiled.
Last edited by Annie Bot; 11-08-2014 at 05:50 PM. Reason: So many typos, good morning MTGthesource.
I used to run Ashen Riders in the side as well, but have taken them out, due to show and tell players quiting magic in my area, I'm interested to know what other deck they can come in against?
My reasoning for bridge is that it can come in against RUG(if I decide to take Relic out of my board) Its also playable against D+T as well as stoneforge decks, and I've had mild success against Miracles as well as Reanimator(They blew alot of counter magic on my grave hate, and had not killed me by turn three). I've also brought it in against elves, but have had no success in that match up.
I can agree with most of what you said about splashing in burn, it opens you up to wasteland, and dilutes the deck too much, I have tried the white splash and it didn't not work out for me at all. I am trying a blue splash at the moment for Treasure Cruise and it has been amazing so far. I've had games where I've been pulled into the late game, and just lost while topdecking lands, and Cruise fixes that very well.
The only splash I would consider is the one which gives me access to enchantment-hate, so that would be either Green or White. Green has Destructive Revelry, which looks like to fit Burn's philosophy better I think. That said, I think I will stick to Mono-Red for this moment, so to get a better feel of the deck.
Yeah, I'm still not sold on the arguments that a splash is really all that bad. In mono-red, you run the risk of an opponent simply dropping Leyline or some new anti-Delver tech like Energy Storm, and then you're hosed. I am a big advocate of the philosophy that a burn deck wants to win fast and win now, and that Jeskai Swiftspear makes this a very reliable gameplan. Your opponent using a wasteland on one of your mana sources should be a big losing proposition for them unless it was your only mana source because it will slow the game down while your burn engine keeps on trucking. Not to mention the fact that Boros Charm is so much better than Flame Rift against anyone who tries to race you.
I guess it depends which games you want to lose. The games where you only draw 1 mana source and it's a nonbasic, nonfetch, or those where your opponent drops a hate enchantment. Wasteland might be prevalent, but the games where it is going to hurt you are rarer than the games you actually see it.
It's live against Omnitell and other SnT variants, not a huge range of decks to bring them out against but your right this is more of a meta call for your area where here it's still an issue.
I wasn't trying to spark a new debate on WR burn, just letting him know where to get started should he decide to explore that route, I believe we already covered the most important issues. As for the other notes Flame Rift ( in my deck at least ) was replaced with Searing Blaze. Leyline isn't complete GG just by being on the field. We still have targetless damage (PoP, SV, and Eidolon) as well as creature damage. Would essentially the same for Energy Storm aside from eventually getting to cast all your instants and sorceries when they ditch to upkeep using GL > PoP in the meantime.
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