Worst burn player i had seenOriginally Posted by Lyle Hopkins
Has anyone played with a Burn deck like this? I like the feel of it in testing, and I'm wondering what people's impressions of this sort of thing have been.
// Instants
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
// Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Tyrant's Choice
// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Guide
// Enchantments
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Sylvan Library
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
// Lands
2 Badlands
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Destructive Revelry
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 Electrickery
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Searing Blood
I think it adds a lot of vulnerabilities while not adding nearly as many benefits. I don't think running Price of Progress with that many dual is wise. One of the big reasons that we can get away with playing it is because we run with so few, if any, dual lands to damage us. DRS is a solid card that I used to great effect in my burn decks before its banning in Modern and adding black makes Tyrant's Choice an obvious inclusion but I am not sure that it is enough to warrant such a shift as opposed to just playing Punishing Jund at that point.
As far as running a list with an off color, I have been experimenting with a "Cruise Burn" variant. This is about as far as I would go with a blue splash. Any more and I would be better off running UR Delver.
http://deckstats.net/decks/3589/161437-cruise-burn/en
Creatures
3 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm
4 Treasure Cruise
Lands
8 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Flame Rift
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
On the topic of splashing: I've been tinkering with Rakdos burn, specifically the card Spike Jester and Dark Confidant. My list is this:
//Creature (12)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Guide
4 Spike Jester
//Enchantment Creature (4)
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
//Instant (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
//Sorcery (16)
4 Bump in the Night
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Tyrant's Choice
2 Rift Bolt
//Land (20)
2 Arid Mesa
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 3 Flame Rift
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
Tyrant's Choice is absurdly good as a one-sided flame rift. Confidant is a great card advantage engine that's also a decent bear, and Spike Jester is just a repeatable bolt against everything but Goyf decks, where you're going to sie it out anyways.
Rakdos Charm is an amazingly versatile card that comes in often.
Thoughts? This build has been doing very well for me in my last couple of FNMs.
I can see why you would like to play Bob, but I don't like it. But if it works, it worksPersonally, I would only splash for artifact- and enchantment hate.
You guys have seen this list?
^
That's an interesting take on Burn. Takes advantage of Treasure Cruise, for sure. I was just thinking of having Simian Spirit Guide to speed up to a turn one Eidolon, or super secret tech for Daze payments.
I've noticed more and more players main decking Hydroblast. Anyone notice this as well?
Glad to see I was vindicated about my insistence that Eidolon of the Great Revel is going to be amazing in this deck back when that card was first spoiled.
Speaking of spoiled cards, I really love the idea of playing Mardu Scout in this deck.
Dealing 3 hasty damage to your opponent each turn they fail to leave a blocker up for just two mana seems strong.
Mardu Scout RR
Dash 1R
3/1
What do you guys think?
Before dismissing the suggestion off hand, recall that there was a while that Viashino Sandscout was a fairly popular choice in legacy burn decks, and that card is vastly vastly inferior to Mardu Scout.
Not a big fan of the scout. It doesn't have trample. Hellspark Elemental is no longer played in this deck, which can very much be argued that it's a superior version of scout and its Unearth ability can't be countered and doesn't activate Eidolon. Scout, from what I understand, doesn't do that.
Hellspark Elemental is a good comparison.
It's advantages are...
It can't be countered - But that's pretty much irrelevent. Every other burn spell in the deck can be countered, so it's not like their counters won't have other targets. It doesn't matter what they counter, with the exception of Fireblast almost all the spells in the deck deal 3 damage. In fact, it would be better if they do counter Hellspark rather than save that counter for Fireblast or Eideon.
It saves you 2 life under a Eidolon. While there's a few situations where those 2 points of life matter, it's very rare for burn to get outburned. It loses the game usually due to running out of steam, not due to lack of life.
Scout's advantages are...
It's immune to graveyard hate. Thus, against the multitude of decks that play Deathrite Shaman where Hellspark can be a liability (netting only 1 damage for your two mana and 1 card investment), Scout isn't. DRS is one of the main reasons that Hellspark fell out of favor.
While it's comparable to a ever recurring Hellspark vs creature based decks, it can also be hardcast as a regular 3/1 for RR against creatureless decks. There are situations where this is the correct route to go, in order to do more damage over a few turns with a lower mana investment while using that mana to cast your other burn spells.
It can help avoid one of the pitfalls of burn decks, the propensity to run out of steam. Scout can act as a solid finisher against decks that don't play many creatures.
Been playing burn for the better part of a decade now, don't think I've ever thought to post in here though. Here's the list I'm currently on.
Land 19
1 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
1 Taiga
Creatures 13
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Grim Lavamancer
Spells 28
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
3 Rift Bolt
1 Runeflare Trap
Sideboard 15
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Runeflare Trap
I'm a little more creature heavy than most, but my view on it is that when the creatures are as good as they are, and Lava Spike is as bad as it is... why not play the creatures? I'll take the extra vulnerability to removal in exchange for a bit more power. Has anyone thought about Collateral Damage? I'm really liking it, I've cast plenty of Reckless Abandons and getting one at instant speed is great, there's just so much you can do with it like swing into a Batterskull or Griselbrand and sacrifice whatever is blocked, or block a Batterskull and sacrifice the blocker. You can kill an Eidolon that has backfired, it puts 2 in the yard for a post combat Lavamancer activation, and there's the general utility of it just being another instant speed Bolt. I'm thinking about running two, probably over 1 Skullcrack due to the sacrifices meaning I don't need to prevent as much lifegain and 1 Rift Bolt because it's the worst card.
Hi Brael, while I'm not as experienced with Burn as you are, but here are my 2cents:
Interesting list, in particular Runeflare Trap and Skullcrack. How did Runeflare Trap perform for you? The creature-heavy burn is something I was considering as well, and yes Collateral Damage could substitute like Rift Bolt or perhaps Lave Spike (which I'm still running). Will definitely be testing that card as well
Because of Monastery Swiftspear I was also thinking of other cards to go well with it, i.e. ''free spells''. Cards that came to mind are:
- Gitaxian Probe
- Lotus Petal
- Cave-In
All those cards have their limitations, of course. Personally I would opt for Lotus Petal. I know that Burn-purists will condemn me for thisWhat do you guys think?
Speaking of interesting lists, have people noticed these last Burn lists? There are two splashing Blue for Treasure Cruise (here and here), and one list more traditional (only more creature light, read 11 instead of 13 I'm considering now)
Well, Runeflare Trap is probably a bit greedy MB. Typically I run just one in the SB to upgrade a Rift Bolt if I'm against Blue but with Cruise being as ubiquitous as it is, having another copy in the MB is quite strong even if it is dead in some matches. Skullcrack is the lowest quality burn spell but I like having a way to stop lifegain. If you stop a single DRS activation or a Batterskull or a Griselbrand it has justified itself.
For a little while I ran Probes for the information and to have "56" cards, which let me cut a bad spell and fuel Lavamancer without fetches. Eventually I got rid of them though. The problem with a card like Probe is that you don't know what the card that replaces it is going to be, and that makes evaluating your hand more difficult. I think Swiftspear is fine as it is, it adds 1 damage to all of your burn spells essentially. Do you really need to do more? Another problem is that if you add cards that do nothing without Swiftspear you make your deck worse when you don't have it. You'll only draw it in 50% of games, and it will only stick on the field in some percentage of those where as more bolts are still bolts.Because of Monastery Swiftspear I was also thinking of other cards to go well with it, i.e. ''free spells''. Cards that came to mind are:
- Gitaxian Probe
- Lotus Petal
- Cave-In
Sam Black just recently posted a video on SCG Premium of Treasure Burn, he used Probe, Brainstorm, and Lotus Petal to fuel Cruises with the rest being burn spells. He ended up going 0-4 and several times he would have had the win if that Lotus Petal was a burn spell instead of a 0 damage spell.All those cards have their limitations, of course. Personally I would opt for Lotus Petal. I know that Burn-purists will condemn me for this
Back to the Blue drawing board for them, I guess.
However, staying on the blue theme, does anyone have any experience of splashing Black and Blue for Bump and Brainstorm?
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Badlands
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Island
1 Swamp
(19 Land)
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Flame Rift
3 Lava Spike
3 Rift Bolt
3 Bump in the Night
4 Echoing Truth
4 Brainstorm
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Sideboard
4 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Innocent Blood
3 Rakdos Charm
---
I guess both MB and SB are tuned for FNM at my local LGS: CounterTop, Iona, Jund, Show/Sneak. UR Delver also but I see them probably moving to Jund now.
Thanks in advance for your opinions.
You've got me thinking!
Questions:
- How often did the Jester survive to attack twice?
- I find that I only use the sacrifice mechanic when there's a single big nasty on their side and an Innocent Blood for B is more efficient than 1B for Edict. Is the instant that much better than sorcery speed?
- How do you match up against the usual suspects (Miracles, UR, etc.)?
Thanks
Hello everyone. I have been looking at tournament results on scg and I've noticed most the burn lists getting printed have been running monastary swiftspear over grim lavamancer. Ever since the card got printed I thought this was a bad idea given the little gains from swiftspear and what you lose by not playing the lavaman. Is this the general concensus here that swiftspear is better then lavamancer? I'll be playing legacy at scg indy and was just curious on everyones thoughts. I have been playing burn for a little over a year with pretty good results at my lgs and other smallish tourneys in the area. How happy is everyone with the chance for bug delver to come back now that t-cruise is gone? I know I'm looking forward to more giant PoP's in the near future!
I think Swiftspear is better, there's a few reasons for it.
The first is that provided you can swing Swiftspear will always hit for some damage, this gives it a minimum damage of 1 where a Lavamancer has a minimum damage of 0.
Next is that due to Fireblast and often times wanting to hold up instants, not to mention the way mana develops our spell casts when things go on plan are strongly weighted towards the final turn. If you take a typical mana development of making your land drops on turns 1, 2, and 4 you'll have 8 mana over the course of the game (1-2-2-3). Assuming the Lavamancer is cast at his most beneficial time of turn 1 that means you have 7 mana for spells, but that 3 of those spells (4 with a Fireblast) are coming all on turn 4. Lavamancer needs to come down early, then you need to keep a steady pace in order to use him. With Swiftspear it can come down on turn 3 if you want (such as if it's topdecked) and still benefit from the majority of spells in your hand.
Another mark in Swiftspears favor is that if you play a more instant heavy list like I do (23 instants), you can counter an opponents Lightning Bolt on your Swiftspear with two spells of your own though this usually takes 3 mana.
Last is the damage dealt during a game. Lets say you're on a gameplan of a turn 4 win. If Lavamancer comes down on turn 1 and everything goes correctly he hits for:
T1 - 0
T2 - 2
T3 - 2
T4 - 2
Total - 6
Now look at Swiftspear. We'll say you got 3 lands. T4 means you've drawn Swiftspear and 9 other cards. Lets say 1 of those is a creature and 3 are lands. That means 5 Prowess triggers. We'll space them out a bit but load them up at the end.
T1 - 1
T2 - 2 (1 prowess)
T3 - 2 (1 prowess)
T4 - 4 (3 prowess)
Total - 9
So not only does Swiftspear have a higher minimum damage, but the maximum damage is higher, and it's more resistant to removal. And we haven't even taken into account that Lavamancer requires you to spend additional mana on him where as Swiftspear gives you extra damage for spending mana on things you were already going to do.
Are we talking about Burn here. When did Lava Spike become a bad card in Burn?
3 damage for 1 mana is the gold standard. So what if it can't hit creatures, aiming your burn at your opponents head is the correct play the vast majority of the time. If you really need to kill a creature that badly, more than a third of the cards burn plays are capable of doing just that.
Again with the cutting of Lava Spike!
To answer the question, yes, I love the black splash in burn. But playing 24 mana producers in order to support high cc utility cards like Sulfuric Vortex, Sylvan Library and Searing Blaze in place of burn's bread and butter: 3 damage for 1 mana cards like Lava Spike and Bump in the Night is not the correct route to take.
I'm a big proponent of splashing black into burn (especially now that TC got the boot). But being able to play 4 Bump in the Night alongside 4 Deathrite Shaman (which allows you to get away with playing 18 lands) are the main reasons why I think the black splash is worthwhile. Sulfuric Vortex, Sylvan Library and Searing Blaze have no place in a burn deck that splashes another color. The whole point of splashing is to enable the deck to play more mana efficient spells and a lower curve.
Below is my go to B/R burn list, it's as fast, efficient and consistent as a burn deck has ever been. With the below list, you deal 20+ damage to your opponent by turn 4 virtually every single time, even in the face of counterspells or discard spells blanking a burn spell or two.
// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
// Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
// Sorceries
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Tyrant's Choice
// Lands
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
You don't try to burn away your opponent's creatures, you ignore them and aim everything at the face, the way burn decks are supposed to. Deathrite and Eidolon do almost all of their damage without attacking, they don't care about potential blockers. And a well timed Goblin Guide is generally good for atleast 2 damage to your opponent even if your opponent is playing a creature heavy deck.
Deathrite Shaman serves double duty. Not only is it a great way to turn excess mana into damage, it serves an extremely important role in the above list in substantially decreasing the likelihood of getting mana screwed, while getting away with running the 18 land configuration that is optimal for a deck like this with such a low curve.
The only remaining question regarding the above list is....
Goblin Guide vs. Monastary Swiftspear - Which is the superior choice? I lean heavily in favor of Goblin Guide's dependability myself.
Then why play a Taiga?
Also, Swiftspear will almost always by 2+ after the first turn you cast her. Still, I am missing Good Ol' GG from time to time... I would say DS serves as a alternative life-drain first, manafixer second, but with your mana-low curve...
What does your SB look like?
Still like Rg better, but have no experience with other splashes to give a solid opinion.
Maybe bad is the wrong word. How about, it's not in the 60 best cards? Of the bolts Lava Spike is the worst, it's the slowest with the least utility. Yes you want to hit a persons face 90 or 95% of the time and in that scenario a Lava Spike is equal to anything else, but matches can be won or lost on that remaining 5-10%. Lightning Bolt is the gold standard because of the options it provides. It's efficient, you can time it optimally, and if you need to hit something other than your opponents face you can. Chain Lightning lacks the timing but keeps options. Rift Bolt has slightly better timing options than Lava Spike but has the added utility of dodging 1 CMC hate and with Swiftspear lets you load up additional spells in a single turn incase you need more prowess on one turn to get through or something. Even Bump In the Night in Black though super marginal has additional upside over Lava Spike. I would run Lava Spike if there were a need, but I posted my list above (though now slightly out of date since Runeflare Trap is no longer a MB option, and Collateral Damage is a thing). What am I losing out on by not including Lava Spike?
In your list for example I would run Magma Jet over the Lava Spikes every time, and Black aside that's the main difference between our lists. That card is very underrated in Burn. It finds you your sideboard cards and it makes sure you draw into action. The idea is that scry gets worse as cards homogenize but that's not entirely accurate. In a deck like Burn scry is amazing because on say turn 3 we have ~25 cards we want to hit being any burn and ~25 cards we don't being any land or creatures without haste. On turns 3 and 4 (but especially 3 because an upkeep Magma Jet gives you the opportunity to draw both cards in top-top by turn 4). There is a very large power difference between the cards we want and the cards we don't want. As a result that scry translates directly into additional damage and improves your consistency.
As far as more than 1/3 of the cards killing creatures goes. Lets use your list, including Fireblast you only have 15 cards that can kill creatures if needed. That's 1/4 of the deck not 1/3. And if you don't count Fireblast (because lets be honest, if you have to Fireblast a creature you're probably losing) it's only 1/5 of the deck. Not to say I have a whole lot more, because I don't at 16 cards but that just proves my point. With few ways to interact if you NEED to interact (most of the time we don't want to) having more ways to do so holds a premium.
I liked Lava Spike far more before Eidolon was a thing, that card gave a real incentive in going up above 8 creatures and that means Burn spells had to start getting cut.
Captain Hammer - splashing for black, how do you cope with a turn 3 Iona or Griselbrand or Emrakul or similar, via Reanimate/Show/Sneak?
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