[Primer/Deck] Burn

[feline]

Thanks to bigwerds for the part of the article, where you explain what kind of niche the burn deck exploits.
Pretty much sums up the way I was behaving with and understanding the burn deck intuitively.
(That moment when you sling two fireblasts in response to a top activation when the miracle player feels totally save and suddenly feels the urgent need to flip the table...)

Also thanks to both Crimson Viper and bigwerds for the great weighting on the Crypt vs Marcabre topic.

Both illustrate a great understandig of the game and its great to have them written down.

Could feline maybe link them in the opening post?

edit: ofc treasure cruise was banned because splashing it into almost anything (including burn) could have been considered reasonable.

Tell me what to link and I can add it ^.^

[Nina]

Tell me what to link and I can add it ^.^

So the great talk about which gravehate to choose and why starts here and goes on till my last post.
Not sure if that's worth a link but those two pages are the best way (imho) to get an opinion yourself.
Credits would go to all the posters dicussing this.

2nd. The article discussing burn, and the niche it exploits in the meta.

The statement that Swiftspear is just wrong, because he says so, might not be useful, but the rest is.

edit: While we're at it. You could link the "Manaless Dredge or Burn?" thread, to give people a source for good reasoning on why burn is a good deck to get into legacy on.

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As we are at a point where the most has been said about the spells, I'd like to discuss a minor topic.
What fetchlands should be used?

I know it makes minor to no difference gameplaywise for yourself (no if you run 0 non-mountains, and minor if you run any non-basic lands),
but your opponent will play differently (or at least think more) if you open with *Wooded Foothills or Scalding Tarn - Go!*
or with *Bloodstained Mire - fetch a Mountain - Lava Spike - Go!*.
Having a fetchland open game one, that suggest you could be "any deck", meaning you could have Stifle (cracking foothills for a blue dual - gotcha!)or Daze or Spell Pierce or FoW or be ANT etc., gives you an informational advantage as the opponent doesn't know what you are on.
It's the same minor advantage you have when you actually notice what kind of cards goblin guide reveals, that you deny your opponent in that case.

So basically what fetchlands make it the least obvious that we are on burn?

Probably Wooded Foothills and Scalding Tarn. Right? (please discuss.)

Or should we diversify in 2-2-2-2 manner to avoid Phyrexian Revoker and Surgical Extraction Gravehate splash damage?

(I'd like to leave out any financial discussion about the different price of the lands, as it is very likely that the enemy color Fetchlands will be reprinted with the Holofoil stamp soon, probably even in BfZ.)

Also for somebody who invests in fetchlands it makes sense to get the red ones used in the most decks, cause they could use them in more decks. Ha.

[Nina]

So I did decide to make a doublepost for this as it is a new topic. Whatever.

How the hell are we supposed to act against Standstill? (I won the match 2-1 against UW Landstill, but I am still not sure about my strategy there)

(read up on standsill here)

Basically, we need to cast spells to kill our opponent. Thats a fact.
And Standstill aims to cast Standstill when we are in need of doing so (read: when we do not have a creature or vortex in play).
They will be able to accomplish this as they have many answers in their deck.
So we will have to give them their Recall (Apart from the times where we can REB/Pyroblast that card).
My thinking was that freezing when they resolved Standstill is wrong, because waiting is good for them (big mana and time gives access to Supreme Verict, JTMS, Mishra's Factory etc).
Is that true?

So what I did I always deliberatly triggered their Standstill by playing a creature (best case Eidolon), hoping their CA wouldn't allow them to counter it and start over.
Is that the best way of doing it?

The game I lost and the games I won my opponent drew 3,6 or 9 cards and that just feels bad. That's why I am asking.

[bigwerdz]

@Nina
I think your statement on fetchlands is correct. Yes foothills or tarns probably gives your opponents the most range of decks to consider when thinking "what deck is my opponent on?". It also most likely doesn't matter. 9.5 times out of 10 I am cracking a fetch turn 1 to do something at sorcery speed. The most likely time I am not would be if i know my opponent is on elves and I'm holding bolt for their turn 1 accelerant. A split on fetches may help on against random gy hate but I've never experienced that happening.
My experience against standstill is typically just pop the standstill. I've noticed the problem with that deck is it ofter just draws fluff. Giving them time to develop is exactly what they want. My plan is to just keep presenting threats, eidolon/vortex being fantastic, and make them hope to draw well off the standstill.

Yesterday I won a ~45 player 1k in my area. The room was very good for burn as there was alot of favorable match ups. I lost to death and taxes in the first round, then beat burn x2, grixis delver, lands x2, jund, rug delver, and elves not in that order. Both burn players were on a switspear builds so it made their play more predictable allowing me to feel safer going in for the kill when that time came. The other lists did do decent as I beat one player for my win and in the other was just outside of top 8 too. I still think burn is favorable in the current meta just gotta dodge the Omnitell in the room as it grows in popularity.

[Krimson Viper]

Congrats to Bigwerdz and thank you Nina for both of your posts. Asking some solid questions that have either not been addressed before, or hasn't been in awhile.

I watched SouthFloridaMagic's stream today and Danny Savage, I believe, would have taken that tournament down. I'm not sure of the amount of players, but it was at least five rounds. I didn't stare at his sideboard long enough to grab it, but his main deck is a lot like mine so that was easy to remember. He ended up splitting with a Miracles players and demolished his opponent in the top four, who was also a Miracles player.

4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
1 Searing Blood
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast

10 Fetches
10 Mountain

[TrevaBlues]

4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
1 Searing Blood
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast

10 Fetches
10 Mountain

I'm preparing to go to SCG Worcester with a list like this. Going to be testing where I want my board to be at, but so far something like this:

3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Thoughts behind this board build:
I want to be able to easily beat Miracles. I want good game against URx Delver decks and D&T.
I'm not too worried of Dredge or other superfast combo, so I'm leaning to Relic over Tormod's Crypt since I want them for the black delver decks, lands, and tarmogoyf.
I normally have a mix of Pyroblast / Pyrostatic pillar in place of Shushers but I want the extra game against miracles. I think I'll miss pillar.

Any thoughts, opinions?
The other deck I might play is UR delver.
I am an experienced storm player but don't like where it's at in the metagame as everyone is ready to beat it- which makes it a lot of work to do well... :P

[Krimson Viper]

I think you have a really well rounded board for what you're targeting. I think, if anything, you should drop a Blood and add in another Grim. In fact, if you intend of fighting those decks in general, Blaze might be a better choice. Mom activation will stop your Bloods from doing anything. With Blaze, it's two targets. Infect is the same deal.

I have a sneaky suspicion that decks with twenty one lands have better activations with Blaze though. Take that with a grain of salt in your decision.

[TrevaBlues]

I think you have a really well rounded board for what you're targeting. I think, if anything, you should drop a Blood and add in another Grim. In fact, if you intend of fighting those decks in general, Blaze might be a better choice. Mom activation will stop your Bloods from doing anything. With Blaze, it's two targets. Infect is the same deal.

I have a sneaky suspicion that decks with twenty one lands have better activations with Blaze though. Take that with a grain of salt in your decision.

Awesome feedback.

My goal against Mom/infect is just to overload with searing effects and expend burn spells on creatures if needed. Usually works out fine.

I've felt happyish with 20 lands, but am tired of losing because i have to mulligan certain 0/1 land hands. wouldn't mind the 21st land being another fetch.

[bigwerdz]

@TrevaBlues
I like your sideboard plan we have different choice for a few spots but they all answer the same decks. Good luck at the tourney.

Ok so what is everyone's sideboard plan for omni-tell? As of right now I have nothing for it because it is still a really small percent in my local meta. Anyone have any tech for it? I had thought about replacing the bridges with Ashen Riders but a friend on omni-tell said that wasn't great. Who knows might never be enough of a problem to worry about just wanted to see where peoples heads were at with it.
my sideboard atm:
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Searing Blood
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Nullrod
1 Sulfuric Vortex

[datanaga]

@TrevaBlues
I like your sideboard plan we have different choice for a few spots but they all answer the same decks. Good luck at the tourney.

Ok so what is everyone's sideboard plan for omni-tell? As of right now I have nothing for it because it is still a really small percent in my local meta. Anyone have any tech for it? I had thought about replacing the bridges with Ashen Riders but a friend on omni-tell said that wasn't great. Who knows might never be enough of a problem to worry about just wanted to see where peoples heads were at with it.
my sideboard atm:
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Searing Blood
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Nullrod
1 Sulfuric Vortex

My sb plan vs omnitell is:
-4 price of progress
-3 searing blaze
+2 REB
+2 pyroblast
+2 bridge
+1 vortex

[Krimson Viper]

My sideboard plan against any Show and Tell deck is simply take out PoP and bring in Bridge if I decide to use that in my board. That match up is so abismal I simply ignore it and hope to dodge it all day. There's nothing I want to actively do against it besides racing. Side out too much and your deck loses sight of what it wants to do.

[Nina]

My sideboard plan against any Show and Tell deck is simply take out PoP and bring in Bridge if I decide to use that in my board. That match up is so abismal I simply ignore it and hope to dodge it all day. There's nothing I want to actively do against it besides racing. Side out too much and your deck loses sight of what it wants to do.

When running searing effects main, they very much do nothing in helping you achieving the goal of winning first (no targets when targets are needed).
So I'd call it reasonable to side them all out for REBs or Pyroblasts if you have access to them.

Sulfuric Vortex and Ensnaring Bridge I will bring in for the almost dead PoPs.

(btw. I feel like having access to 3 Vortexes in your 75 is the correct number.)

--------------------------------

I have been running a SB package of 2 Pyrostatic Pillars and 1 Mindbreak Trap against "the Storms", when they were present in my meta, would you consider that a good addition to the 4 Eidolons when you expect a lot of Storm?

(I like splitting my hate in x cards that are just good and proactive and 1 that will reactively "get you".
So I usually run 2-3 crypts and 1 Faerie Macabre against the yard, if I do, and the 2-1 split of Pillar and Trap against Storm, if I do.)

[sirlaser]

I have been running a SB package of 2 Pyrostatic Pillars and 1 Mindbreak Trap against "the Storms", when they were present in my meta, would you consider that a good addition to the 4 Eidolons when you expect a lot of Storm?

(I like splitting my hate in x cards that are just good and proactive and 1 that will reactively "get you".
So I usually run 2-3 crypts and 1 Faerie Macabre against the yard, if I do, and the 2-1 split of Pillar and Trap against Storm, if I do.)

This is probably the right thing to do. Smart Storm players will name Eidolon with their Cabal Therapies, so keeping Pillar and Trap in the wings is just more consistent. Resolved Eidolon or Pillar is usually auto-win.

[TrevaBlues]

I have been running a SB package of 2 Pyrostatic Pillars and 1 Mindbreak Trap against "the Storms", when they were present in my meta, would you consider that a good addition to the 4 Eidolons when you expect a lot of Storm?

yeah that'd help a lot. Pyrostatic Pillars are just sweet to have access to anyway. would recommend this plan for omnitell over the REB's /pyroblasts (unless you have space for both).

[Nina]

yeah that'd help a lot. Pyrostatic Pillars are just sweet to have access to anyway. would recommend this plan for omnitell over the REB's /pyroblasts (unless you have space for both).

I already had Pyrostatic Pillars boarded in against Omnitell (in addition to pyroblasts), and they are indeed quiet nice.

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So I thought I might as well share my current decklist.

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

3 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

11 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:

1 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Mindbreak Trap

(I have been running 1 Volcanic Fallout during the Cruise UR Delver days, but now I don't feel like that's worth the slot anymore)
(Flame Rift is notably absent here. I am also not running any in the Sideboard, as I never felt like I have not enough stuff to bring in for the dead cards I need to cut.)

Nitpicking is very welcome, as I want it to be as competitive as possible.

edit:

I watched SouthFloridaMagic's stream today and Danny Savage, I believe, would have taken that tournament down.
...
2 Grim Lavamancer
...

Is there any recording of that available somewhere? (link)

The decision between 2 and 3 Lavamancers is an interesting one, too.
When I expect higher percentages of spell based combo and miracles decks in the meta I probably go down to two, as the pure "Damage to the Face - Effort Ratio" of them is not that high.

[thesivo]

Fine tuning my list for an event on Sunday.

Here's where I am with the main deck:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
6 Mountain

4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex

19 lands only. In Modern Burn I always play 19 lands and it performs well. Why do most legacy lists run 20 lands? 13 fetches and 6 targets only. I want to drop a fetch every turn to feed Grim Lavamancer and keep Searing Blaze landfall trigger live.

This leaves me with one flex slot. What should be played here? Thinking of either Shard Volley or a Sensei's Divining Top.

Sideboard's giving me headaches. Nightmare matchups are Miracles and OmniTell, particularly the latter which I have no idea how to handle apart from playing Ashen Rider, which is useless against Miracles. Here's where I am at now:

3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Searing Blaze
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

5 REBs is a desperate bid not to be such a dog in the blue matchups. It's just not viable to beat them on speed alone, so there has to be a element of disruption.

I couldn't yet wrap my head around how Pyrostatic Pillar hoses OmniTell - could anyone enlighten me? Is it because they then can't play the Release the Ants plan? I might go with 2 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Pyroblast and 2 Pyrostatic Pillar instead then. I might also cut one Ensnaring Bridge and bring in a lone Vexing Shusher for the Miracles matchup, but I've seen a lot of times where it has eaten a StP right away without doing anything meaningful.

What are you guys and gals feeling is the best way to go right now? Meta will be a complete surprise to me, don't know most of the players which will be there.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

I couldn't yet wrap my head around how Pyrostatic Pillar hoses OmniTell - could anyone enlighten me?

Well, omni plays Brainstrom, Preordained, Ponder, Probe, Duress, etc. so you hit them with 2 damage every time they cast them, even after they land an omni. Combined with your disruption, it puts them on a faster clock before you burn them out.

[Lormador]

Legacy burn usually plays a little more land because it has some pretty mana-hungry moves: Sulfuric Vortex and Fireblast. Sometimes you need to double Fireblast.

What I've been doing to combat Miracles and Omnitell is to dump a bunch of Vexing Shushers and blast effects into the sideboard. They are very strong together, but you really need them in numbers. 3-4 Shushers and 4-5 blasts.

Even then it's not always enough.

[LeoCop 90]

Miracles shouldn't be a nightmare matchup at all. Yes, we can do little if they have countertop assembled on turn two, otherwise i feel favored in the matchup.

[Krimson Viper]

I already had Pyrostatic Pillars boarded in against Omnitell (in addition to pyroblasts), and they are indeed quiet nice.

-----------------------------------------------

So I thought I might as well share my current decklist.

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

3 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Fireblast

11 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa

Sideboard:

1 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Mindbreak Trap

(I have been running 1 Volcanic Fallout during the Cruise UR Delver days, but now I don't feel like that's worth the slot anymore)
(Flame Rift is notably absent here. I am also not running any in the Sideboard, as I never felt like I have not enough stuff to bring in for the dead cards I need to cut.)

Nitpicking is very welcome, as I want it to be as competitive as possible.

edit:



Is there any recording of that available somewhere? (link)

The decision between 2 and 3 Lavamancers is an interesting one, too.
When I expect higher percentages of spell based combo and miracles decks in the meta I probably go down to two, as the pure "Damage to the Face - Effort Ratio" of them is not that high.

I just now saw this request. They have a backlog of events, but I can't remember which one this happened at.
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic