Cut the flex slots for it and see what happens? Lavamancer & co. You want it as a 4-of, methinks, to maximize chances of dropping it turn 1. Interesting interaction with PoP and Eidolon (making them hold lands and spells in their hands).
Originally Posted by ktkenshinx
Personally, I don't think there's room. I'm perfectly happy with my list, and I think that Vexing Shusher/Exquisite Firecraft are better anti-control cards.
In Magical Christmasland, you play a Turn 1 Goblin Guide into two Black Vise on Turn 2, hitting lands on both turns; leaving your opponent on 8 at the start of their second upkeep. I don't think it is likely enough to occur to take out any Burn spell at the moment, even Lava Spike seems slightly stronger as a general mid-game play.
I think vise could be a sideboard card. Since on the draw it is very bad (if your opponent casts something on turn 1 then you cast vise on turn 1 you only get 1 damage) it could be sided in games 2 or 3 if you are on the play. When you are on the play it basically guarantees 4+ damages unless you are facing someone that dumps his hand with 0 casting cost spells. Unfortunately it is the worst topdeck ever so i don't think it has a place at all in the 75
I don't think Black Vise is good enough. I keep a spreadsheet where I try to evaluate different cards. What I noticed with Black Vise is that with some pretty basic assumptions like the opponents hand size shrinks by 1 per turn it's basically dead on the draw and that when played on any turn after turn 1 it's also effectively dead. If played on turn 1 on the play with those assumptions it will do 3-2-1 damage over turns 1, 2, and 3 for 6 total. If the opponent mulligans though you've lost half the damage, and if you don't have it in your opening hand and instead top deck it on turn 2 it also does half the damage, even worse if top decked on turns 3 or 4 it does no damage. Additionally, if the opponent goes first they have the opportunity to play a land and a card dropping to 5 in hand making the turn 1 Black Vise bad as well.
All things considered the card evaluated to an average of 2.4 damage on the play and 0.7 on the draw. I suppose there are specific match ups where it can get better results but it's definitely not a main board card.
The first testing showed that Black Vise can deal up to 7 damage when played on turn 1 otp. It is sometimes a 0 dmg card aswell.
The question ist therefore: how many games do i lose because i draw into Black Vise. And how many do i win because of BV.
So far i only played 10 games and there were a lot of games without any impact of BV neither for losing nor for winning.
Of the 10 i lost 1 because BV was a dead card and i won 1 game because BV dealt 7 damage.
I will do alot more testing to get some better results.
After another 10 Games. I already lost 5 games because a BV topdeck was exactly the wrong card. And every other damage spell would have won the game instead. (Sadly i didnt win one game because i had a BV)
I guess BV is not that good ;)
Did you happen to keep track of the amount of damage dealt by each copy of Black Vise that you drew in each game? I'm curious how it compares to my estimates considering the amount of cantriping that goes on keeping the opponents hand count likely higher on the first couple turns than I'm assuming.
Yes i did,
Turn 1 otp, BV dealt 5,7,9,5 damage. The 7 and 9 damage was due to a land from Goblin Guide and a first turn Ponder or Brainstorm.
A turn 2 BV dealt 2 damage most of the times( 3times 2damage 1time 0 damage) All other BV dealt 0 damage.
I tested against Miracles and Esper Blade (only blue)
In my calculation it dealt 2,9 damage.
One big problem is a Force of Will since you drop two cards. So if you happen to play a GG turn 1 and it gets a FoW all BV you will draw that game are dead.
regards
The only reason to even consider Black Vise I see is wanting to inflate your artifact count for something like Shrapnel Blast. And I'm pretty sure that package offers too little in the best case scenario to be worth the inconsistency and worst-case scenarios it causes (imagine drawing multiple Black Vises; chances of the second one ever doing anything in Legacy is almost nil). The real draw of burn is the consistent goldfish with a bunch of maindeck hate cards (Eidolon, PoP, Vortex) and Black Vise would detract from that with an extremely situational card that doesn't really hate on any existent archetypes. Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear are both generally as good as Black Vise turn 1, and better any other turn. If people don't even consider Swiftspear an automatic 4-of (I would but that's just me; I'd ideally want 10-12 one-drop T3 goldfish creatures that do some damage even if answered and aren't horrendous on subsequent turns), I can't imagine how Black Vise could fit, especially with Treasure Cruise and Dig gone from the format. People simply don't draw cards that much in Legacy; it's mostly filtering.
I absolutely agree with you.
After the testing i dont even want Black Vise to be in my SB. To inconsistend.
Well, dealing 5,7,9,5 damage turn one on the play is A LOT of damage. The problem is that vise is good just in this situation. As i said, you could put vises in your sideboard, bring them in only on the play, and hope to have them in your opener because you probably win every game where you cast a card that at worst is a 5 damage lava spike.
That is not entirely true since the first Black Vise may deal 5 damage but the second one later than turn 2 always deals 0 damage. So in the end a card that deals approx 2,9 damage is when drawn multiple times still worse than a lava spike.
Even if it deals 7 damage and you draw into a second one its only 3,5 damage that each copy dealt. Plus it weakens your other 1 Drops. GG or Switspear a round later is 1-2 dmg less. So if i have an opening hand with GG and Vise, BV firt turn also means 2 less damage from GG where a simple burn spell would allow you to play GG in the first turn and the spell would deal its damage anyways.
In my List i cutted the creature removal spells like Searing Blood. To be honest they also deal 5-6 damage. If the enemy plays a Stoneforge you have to remove it no matter what. Searing blood in that scenario is worth 6 damage. ( A black Vise turn 1 dealing 5 damage face and a lb on the SFM is 5 damage face / Searing blood on the SFM is 3 face + LB 3 face = 6 damage. I think the scenario where you have to remove a creature is far more likely to happen than a first turn BV play without ever drawing a second Black Vise the entire game )
I will not include BV in my Sideboard
Well, i am not advocating putting black vise in the board. I am just saying this is the only use it could have : sometimes it would pay off, but overall i, like you, think it is too inconsistent and not worth it.
Searing blaze and searing blood are another story. When you play against delver/deathrite/stoneforge thay are the best spells you can have in hand, so i think you should spend 3-4 sideboard slots for them. In a metagame with mostly fair decks searing blaze is also a good maindeck choice... even against miracles and sneak and show it could find targets in mentor and griselbrand (though you would always side it out against these matchups).
Cards like Searing Blaze, Price of Progress and company are the type where I like to start with ~2 maindeck with the rest in the sideboard in an unknown metagame. The fact that you have them in your deck means your opponents have to play as if you had 'em even if you don't, and this way you're kinda half-presideboarded for various match-ups without still losing too many percentages against decks where those cards are dead. This is a well-tested methodology from various formats and it usually works out rather well: this way you still have them as outs but have a very low chance of randomly losing vs. Miracles/Storm/whatever just because you happened to draw multiple Searing Blazes.
I'm also personally in the camp where I want to run few more lands but want to stick to 3-4 Barbarian Rings; I find the most common reason the deck loses vs. blue stuff is that the last few spells run into the counterwall and the ground is clogged up (and blue stuff is what you absolutely have to have a decent match-up against for this to be a reasonable deck choice). Barbarian Ring is an extremely convenient way to end the game, and enables running more lands while still avoiding the flood losses. 21 lands makes hitting the 3rd one for Sulfuric Vortex and efficiently playing out your hand rather consistent while still leaving you with enough Mountains to keep Price of Progress rather one-sided and enable consistent casting of at least a single Fireblast each game.
I suppose if I were making a MD for an open field such as the GP now I'd go with:
Creatures
4 GG
4 Swiftspear
4 Eidolon
1 Grim Lavamancer
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
2 Lava Spike
2 Searing Blaze
3 PoP
4 Fireblast
3 Sulfuric Vortex
Lands
5 Mountain
12 Fetch
4 Barbarian Ring
SB:
3 Volcanic Fallout
1 PoP
3 REB
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Gravehate
I like not playing 4x price of progress main deck. There are decks like miracles that can afford to fetch basics and they will do so, and finding yourself with 2 price of progress in hand that deal only 2 damage each can lose the game. I approve 3x.
Instead i would never play 4x barbarian ring. Trust me, when you open a hand where your only lands are rings, the damage you take can be too much. Moreover, playing 4x fireblast and only 17 mountains means that you will almost never be able to cast a second fireblast. If you really want the 4 rings i would cut one fireblast, but i think the better choice is playing 2 rings, 19 mountains and 4 fireblast.
I really like the Ring's ability to finish games TBH. It really minimizes the landflood issues Burn often suffers of and is one of the few ways to push damage through the blue deck's counterwall when they inevitably stabilize at 1 life. I agree that it might be correct to cut a Fireblast (I've run 3 Fireblast in the past myself) and that the land situation will be problematic once in a while but on the flipside, I think it'll cut down on many of the reasons Burn often loses (not hitting the 3rd land to cast all your stuff in time, drawing too many lands and lacking damage spells, getting stuck behind Chalice/Trinisphere/Counterbalance/Counterwall/whatever with enemy at low life and being unable to push the last few points through).
I'd cut a FB and a Ring because drawing two of either in your opening hand sucks. However, I do like the slightly bigger mana base for exactly the reasons you've mentioned.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
With the existence of Exquisite Firecraft i dont think i will ever run Babarian Rings ever again ;)
I even cut the fetch lands at some point because i lost multiple games due to my own fetch damage that i would have won otherwise.
Since the swiftspear made the deck faster and Eidolon more consistend i may include the fetches again.
The existence of exquisite firecraft doesn't change anything at all regarding barbarian ring. They are both ways to push damage through countermagic, but you can't really compare a land to a burn spell that costs 3. I wouldn't play exquisite firecraft maindeck, because 3 mana is a lot of mana and it's better to either stop our curve at 2 or run sulfuric vortex which is more powerful; it is a nice sideboard card against miracles. Barbarian ring, instead, is very good in preventing flood, though as i said i wouldn't play more than 2 because of self damage and problems with fireblast/price of progress/grim lavamancer
Hi legacy community, I thought I’d tell you about the recent weekly event I attended at my local magic store; 4-0.
I took burn, of course. The meta here can be difficult to judge – there are a few ‘once-in-a-while’ dudes, who’ll appear once in a blue moon and whip out an unusual deck. Everyone does play tuned, optimised competitive decks, with all the latest tech. There are also a couple of guys (and I mean guys... NO girls attend) who have enormous collections and bring something different almost every week.
So... It makes it tricky to sideboard.
That said, burn rocks. I’ve got a couple of decks (manaless dredge, Oops! All spells, and my own astral slide) but none are as interactive or fun. And, I would even hazard, as skill intensive as burn.
The deck list I played is a more budget version but I find it still strong. I just don’t own any fetchlands.
Deck List; pretty much stock list.
Enchantments
2x Sulfuric Vortex
Instant / Sorceries
4x Lightning bolt
4x Price of Progress
2x Searing blood
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Fireblast
4x Rift Bolt
Creatures
1x Grim Lavamancer
3x Monastary Swiftspear
4x Goblin Guide
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
Lands
20x Mountain
Sideboard
1x Flame rift
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Grafdigger’s cage
4x REB / Pyroblast
3x Smash to Smithereens
2x Vexing Shusher
2x Ashen Rider
24 attendees last night, and when wandering around I saw 2x Painter, 2x miracles, 2x nic fit, 1x Sneak + Show, 1x Charbelcher, 1x RUG, 1x Dredge, 1x BUG, 1x 4C Delver, 1x Elves, 1x MUD 1x Infect.... That’s all I saw, but as you can see you kind of need to cover all bases.
Also, I haven’t attended in 6 months. Stuff has changed in magic! No Dig through time! No Treasure cruise! SCRY AFTER MULLIGAN!?!?
Anyway...
Card choices;
Searing blood over searing blaze as I have no fetchlands. Also why I only play one lavamancer.
I never regretted maindeck searing blood; it even won me a game against miracles, which is always nice. May go up to 3 next time.
Sideboard-
Ashen rider, as almost always at least one Show and Tell variant, but one week had 4. So for 2 slots, as a potential win, can’t complain.
Vexing Shusher was underwhelming, but not sure what I would prefer. Pyrostatic pillar can’t swing for damage, so not ideal. Open to suggestions.
Everything else is pretty stock I think.
My matchups this time were pretty favourable for burn; no combo or graveyard, just (mostly) fair decks.
Games:
Match 1 -Nic-Fit; against a regular. Plays very well every week, very quick and a pleasure to play. Tough to beat though.
G1; I keep a solid hand; 2 lands and plenty of creatures (I think Eidolon and 2x guide). He goes first, plays fetch and whips out a Veteran Explorer. I attack with the guide, he blocks and let’s his die. I search 2 mountains, the cast eidolon. I had a feeling it would all be over before we even started.
He manages to stabilise well though; as next turn he plays land and a pernicious deed. He only had 1 untapped land at this point, not enough to activate, so he passed the turn.
I held back by not playing my 2nd guide, and attacked. He took the damage, and I passed the turn. On his turn, he played a land, cracked the deed wiping my board. Played a veteran explorer, a cabal therapy, which I responded to by playing 2x bolts. He named guide (told you he’s good...) and left me with nothing in hand.
By this time he’s on around 8 life. Unfortunately over the next 4 turns I just drew lands, and he played tarmo, tarmo, and beat me for the win.
0-1
-4 Price of Progress
+1 Flame Rift, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Smash to Smithereens. (Upon reflection, smash had no targets. But I didn’t know what would be better, and he ended the first game with 8 lands, all basics so PoP would be just a pointless)
G2: This game was fairly exciting. I started, guide, then lots of damage spells. It got to a stage when he built up an impressive army; werewolf dude who becomes 4/4 if I don’t cast a spell and gains him life & makes token, tarmo, deathrite, and the werewolf token. I had guide and eidolon.
He really struggled with taking so much damage from eidolon, but he did play 4... FOUR cabal therapies, ALL flashbacked. THAT’S EIGHT THERAPIES?!?!
But he kept getting unlucky with them. Everytime he went blind on it, I was holding all lands. Then I would topdeck a bomb.
Anyway, he’s just got this huge army, and if I don’t kill him that turn, it’ll all be over. He’s on 6 life, I have lava spike in hand, and I top decked a lava spike. Job done.
G3: 1st turn goblin, 2nd turn eidolon, 2 fireblasts, a lava spike and bolt, aided by his sacrificed veteran explorer. It was over by his 2nd turn.
Score: 1-0
Match 2; Painter. Not a guy I’ve played before, but I’ve seen his foiled out Japanese, ultra pricy BUG deck before. Today he’s on a foiled out Japanese, ultra pricy Painter deck. Well... My one of my Price of Progress is foil; so suck. on. that.
Side note; everyone I played that night, and most of the guys there generally, play quickly, professionally, declare the various steps / priority / triggers, etc. If you make a mistake, no ‘take-backs’. It’s how magic should be played and I had a really great time!
Guys, if you’ve never played painter with burn, you should know... It’s our dream match up! They have 8... EIGHT moon effects that essentially do zero against us. They use 8 REB / Pyroblasts - again useless unless they have painter... which is their main win con. Which can be shot down easy-peasy.
G1: He didn’t do anything major. He assembled the combo, but was mana screwed. He only managed to play the painter and grindstone through spirit guides and one mountain.
I had a bolt in hand, and everything else was useless against his painter. I decided to wait to kill it until he assembled the combo. Reasoning was that he was totally mana screwed, so I figured he’d eventually do it in desperation, without keeping mana open for REB. Also, they play ancient tomb, which can help knock down their life.
So board state was:
Him – 1 mountain (untapped), painter, and grindstone. Him on 7 life.
Me – Eidolon and goblin, attacking each turn, and some mountains. Bolt in hand.
He had to do something, as I was getting through 2 damage a turn through attacking. Drew and played Ancient Tomb (left 5) activated grindstone, I bolted his painter and he didn’t have the mana for his REB in hand. Game was over after that.
G2:
-4 Price of Progress, -2 sulfuric vortex, -2 Searing blood,
+3 Smash to Smithereens, +1 Flame Rift, +4 REB / Pyroblast
REALLY good match up post board.
Highlight of the match for me was when we had a counter war! (in a match up with pure red decks!!). He had a flying start, with city of traitors, mountain, monkey guides which let him assemble his combo by his 2nd turn. His 3rd turn, he floated his 2 city mana, tapped his one mountain, then played another mountain. So current state is:
Him: painter, grindstone activation on the stack, one untapped mountain. He was on quite low life, around 10, as I’d spent the first 2 turns hitting him hard.
Me: 1 guide, 3 untapped mountains. I cast smash to smithereens his painter in response to activation (he had no artifacts in graveyard), he REB’d to counter, I Pyro’d that, he exiled a monkey to Pyro that, so I fireblasted his painter. He was out of mana, out of steam.
I won a couple of turns later.
2-0
Match 3- Miracles. So far been really lucky with match-ups; time for my winning streak to end...
I managed to come blasting out of the gate, very quickly, before he had a chance to dominate the board early game. That said, I do find playing just one creature at a time against miracles is best. Terminus is totally backbreaking, and they almost always have it ready to rock, but if it just removes one guide, only to be replaced by another, they are on the back foot.
I got to an interesting situation; he was tapped out playing Counterbalance on his 5th turn, with sensei’s out. He was on 5 life.
I had 2 lands, and a few cards in hand – fireblast, searing blood, sulphuric vortex. I knew he had a counterspell in hand from a goblin flip, and he had been keeping the top 3 cards from ponder, top and brainstorms earlier, so I knew he had something he wanted to keep. It normally means he has a 1, 2 and 3 mana spells on top, so he can lock me out with countertop.
So... I played a move I’m not sure about but still feel it was the right one. He had 2 cards in hand, one was the said counterspell, so I decided to go for fireblast. I didn’t want him to stabilize on 5 life, much better on 1 so it shuts off all fetchlands and future FoW’s he may draw. So I sac’d my lands, dealt him 4 to his face in his EOT.
It resolved.
So now we’re in a very delicate state. I don’t have any lands, nor 1 mana spells. He has 1 life, so no fetchlands or FoW’s, and he’s on around 3-4 lands.
Bring on... TOP DECK MODE.
I hate miracles. It’s boring, and every turn can last an eternity. I understand it takes skill, but anyone who is slow it just goes to time every fucking game. Fortunately this guy is speedy. So we’re both just in ‘draw-go’ mode for around 8 turns, with him manipulating top, never shuffling, and both accumulating cards.
Then, we reach a pretty crucial turn. We’re both at max hand size, at around 5-6 lands each, plus his 2 pointless uncracked fetchlands. It’s his turn, he draw’s his 8’th card...
He plays Vend Clique, targeting me, leaving him with 2 untapped lands.
My hand, which I have been sculpting / playing / discarding, to ensure I have lots of different mana cost instants, is:
Fireblast, searing blood, bolt, price of progress + some sorceries / creatures.
I’ll try and get the stack right on this, but it was a very tense and exciting interchange! Remember through this, he’s on 1 life.
So, with the clique trigger on the stack, I searing blood his creature. 3 mana left for me, 2 for him. He uses 1 for top activation. I respond with fireblast to his face, floating 2 mana. He responds with brainstorm, putting (undoubtedly) terminus on top. 3 mana left for me, 0 mana for him. I respond with a bolt, and he responds by tapping his top and putting it on top of his library. 2 mana left for me, 0 mana for him. I respond with a price of progress.
He’s out of answers.
Long game, and lots of spells to get one damage through. But yay for burn!
G2:
Really aggressive start, with guide, 2 lava spikes, and 3rd turn vortex. Then he got counter-top lock out again.
He managed to plow my guide pretty quickly, so board state was, on his 3rd turn:
Him: 7 life, counter balance, sensei’s top, 1 tapped land (terminus) 1 fetchland, 1 untapped.
Me: Sulfuric vortex. 3 tapped lands.
In my hand I had fireblast, rift bolt, lightning bolt and land. I decided to go for broke, before he stabilized again. In his end-of-turn, I cast fireblast. He didn’t counter vortex, so I figured he didn’t have FoW. He could counter with counterspell, but would need to crack his fetch, which would leave him on 6 life, -2 from vortex next turn, so 4 life (or 2 turns to destroy vortex), and he’d have 3 random cards on top of his library. He didn’t have counterspell, so his only out was to hope terminus (lucky to cost 6 mana!!!) could counter through counterbalance my fireblast. Even then, he’d be tapped out for my damage next turn.
He top’d, no answers, fetched (down to 6 life), top’d again, no terminus, so took 4 damage.
Burn wins 2-0 against miracles! Whoo!
Match 4: Infect. I’d seen him playing earlier, and he knew his stuff. Side note; I was pretty unlucky that in all 3 games against him, I didn’t draw a SINGLE bolt....
G1; I kept an ok hand, but a little slow. It was 2 lands, searing blood, lava spike, goblin guide, lavamancer, eidolon. I figured if I could survive the first couple of turns, he’d be dead in the water.
He played first; pendelhaven into infect elf.
Me: mountain into lavamancer. Reason being that I was going to chump block, next turn searing blood his creature, then play guide + eidolon to bring on quick damage. If I had a bolt / chain lightning I would have killed his creature in my turn.
His 2nd turn; played land, attacked (I blocked), he tapped pendlehaven, cast invigorate, cast berserk, dealt 11 poison damage.
Onto game 2.
G2:
-2 Sulfuric vortex, +1 vexing shusher, +1 flame rift
I had 2x chain lightning in my opening hand. There was nothing he could do this game. I played; first turn laid guide.
He cast infect elf.
I cast lightning. He tried to save it with invigorate. He succeeded. Also, always make them waste their pump spells in your turn if you can. No reason to let them pump in response, then attack. Foolish.
Next turn, he laid blighted agent, but didn’t attack with his elf. I figured he had no boost spells (or wanted to save them for his agent).
My turn; I searing blood his agent, chain lightning his elf. Both resolved. Attacked with guide. After that, he never really got any steam back, and I won easily.
G3:
Really exciting game. Lots of back and forth, him countering my key stuff, and me killing his attacking flying lands.
Crucial turn of the game, maybe turn 6 or 7, board state is as follows.
Him:
9 life, with blighted agent and elf.
Me: Tapped out with Fireblast in hand, eidolon and guide on the board with 3 mountains. I’m on 5 poison counters – he attacks with both, I block elf with eidolon. He pendelhaven’s the agent, then casts berserk on him (takes 2 from Eidolon, so left 7 life) . Makes the agent 4/3, and would bring me to 9 counters. I wasn’t hasty. No reason to kill his creature unless it’s going to kill me outright.
He casts a second berserk (down to 5 life) – I fireblast in response, he doesn’t have the FoW, and I attack for the win in the next couple of turns.
4-0 in matches, and I won a scrubland for my troubles.
Long winded report; if you made it this far, you’re the real champion!
Optml, over and out.
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