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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Burn

  1. #1001
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    that's fair, he seems like a pretty strong turn 3 though
    -rob

  2. #1002

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Haven't posted here in awhile since I haven't been able to play Legacy very often. I like that dropping Lava Spikes is catching on with more people, I remember an argument about that a few months ago.

    Not a fan of Abbot because despite the card he's still 0 guaranteed damage and there's too many blanks on his ability in my opinion. I think that cards like Lavamancer are a much better source of card advantage and being a mana sink. Plus, you really need to think of Abbot as a 3 drop so it's competing with something like Sulfuric Vortex for deck slots. Vortex is the stronger card by far.

    Personally, I've been playing with Atarka's Command, I'm still not sure if I like it but it hasn't been horrible. On one hand it's a much better Skullcrack but on the other hand Taiga's sure are vulnerable. I've found I really want 2 Tagia's to go with my 10 fetches and that gives Wasteland a lot of power.

  3. #1003
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Played burn again for the first time in a month. My list from a few pages back -1 Mountain +1 Taiga main deck and SB was 3 Firecraft, 3 Cage, 3 Pyroblast, 3 Bridge, 3 Relvery.

    Went 3-1 basically beat Aluren, Esper Stoneblade, and 4 Color Delver, lost to Grixis ( I drew dumpster ). All of my previous thoughts are still valid, Swiftspear sucks, you want a minimum of 2 Rings, and a minimum of 3 Searing Blazes.

    Highlights of the Night

    Eidelon into play off of Aluren

    Barb Ring killing a Firewalker

    Casting Lightning Bolt


    I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.
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    Isn't the reward for an IQ the right to play standard? I'd rather get rickets.

  4. #1004

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Played burn again for the first time in a month. My list from a few pages back -1 Mountain +1 Taiga main deck and SB was 3 Firecraft, 3 Cage, 3 Pyroblast, 3 Bridge, 3 Relvery.

    Went 3-1 basically beat Aluren, Esper Stoneblade, and 4 Color Delver, lost to Grixis ( I drew dumpster ). All of my previous thoughts are still valid, Swiftspear sucks, you want a minimum of 2 Rings, and a minimum of 3 Searing Blazes.

    Highlights of the Night

    Eidelon into play off of Aluren

    Barb Ring killing a Firewalker

    Casting Lightning Bolt


    I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.
    Disagree completely on Swiftspear. Assuming a 4 turn game Swiftspear is worth 8, 7, 5, and 3 damage if it connects depending on the turn you cast/resolve it compared to Goblin guides 8, 6, 4, and 2. This makes Swiftspear a higher damage creature than Goblin Guide. I think Guide is still slightly better because of the information and less reliance on the rest of your hand but Swiftspear is very good.

    The two are very easy to compare too due to having the same mana cost. Assuming you see 10 cards in the game, you're 70% to cast either of them on turn 1 if you're casting them in that game because that's 7/10 cards total. and then 1/10 on turns 2, 3, and 4. So you can factor this in a handy little chart, this same thing is in my burn spreadsheet I've posted once or twice.
    Swiftspear
    T1 - .7*8
    T2 - .1*7
    T3 - .1*5
    T4 - .1*4
    Total - 7.2

    Guide
    T1 - .7*8
    T2 - .1*6
    T3 - .1*4
    T4 - .1*2
    Total - 6.8

    So looking at that, Swiftspear is worth about half a point more damage during a typical game than Guide is worth.

    Swiftspear calculations are assuming you draw 4 spells out of your 10 cards, 3 lands, Swiftspear, and 2 blanks. So there's plenty of room there to assume it's even better, mana becomes the real constraint.

    On the Barbarian Ring question, I've thought a bit about it combined with the responses I got a couple pages back. What I came up with is the real constraint is in the number of Mountains you have. You have to assume your Taiga gets destroyed so you need to hit 2 basic Mountains (or fetches) in order to cast Fireblast. I run 19 lands, and 1 of those is a Taiga which leaves me 18 possible slots to play with. If I go 10-7-1 or 9-8-1 I'm left with 17 hits for Fireblast which is 84.7% to hit which is about the minimum I'm willing to accept in Burn. So that leaves me with 1 slot for Barbarian Ring. A second Ring would add two damage to what my deck can deal, but it would also drop me to 81.7% on Fireblast so it starts to trade 4 damage for 2 which isn't something I'm interested in doing.

    This is the list I played most recently, but like I said I've found Taiga to be pretty vulnerable I almost feel like I need 2 of them MB, but every Taiga makes opposing Wastelands better and my PoP worse so maybe the correct solution is to go back to mono red, Atarka's Command is just so good though.

    Land 19
    1 Arid Mesa
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Wooded Foothills
    7 Mountain
    1 Taiga
    1 Barbarian Ring

    Creatures 13
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
    1 Grim Lavamancer

    Spells 28
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Rift Bolt
    3 Atarka's Command
    4 Price of Progress
    3 Searing Blaze
    2 Sulfuric Vortex
    4 Fireblast

    Sideboard 15
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Volcanic Fallout
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Destructive Revelry
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Grim Lavamancer
    3 Exquisite Firecraft
    Last edited by Brael; 11-23-2015 at 12:44 PM.

  5. #1005

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Inspired by the holiday I just want to say what I am thankful for. I am thankful for non basic lands, spells with a converted mana cost 3 or less, and creatures with less then 3 toughness.

  6. #1006

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...n_foil_almost/

    I think you guys will enjoy this :]

  7. #1007

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    this list make 4-0 legacy daily


    FREEZEY42 (4-0)
    LEGACY DAILY #9074633 ON 11/30/2015



    4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Monastery Swiftspear

    4 Chain Lightning
    2 Exquisite Firecraft
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt

    4 Fireblast
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    2 Searing Blaze

    4 Bloodstained Mire
    12 Mountain
    4 Wooded Foothills

    Sideboard
    1 Searing Blaze
    3 Angel of Despair
    3 Pyrostatic Pillar
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Searing Blood
    2 Smash to Smithereens
    2 Sulfuric Vortex

    why 3x Angel of Despair in side??

  8. #1008

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    to fight show and tell decks...

  9. #1009

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo View Post
    to fight show and tell decks...
    I think that Ashen Rider is the consensus best choice if you're in the market for that kind of effect, since exile > destroy and 2 triggers > 1 trigger (literally/mathematecally).

    I am thinking about taking Burn to a big Legacy tournament in Italy on sunday, the discussion on these last pages has been very useful. Before the recent bannings I ran 2 copies of Flame Rift since there was a lot of Miracles and not as much Delver decks around, so the 4 dmg for 2 mana came with almost no drawback. Now I will have to look for something else for those slots.

    A question for the supporters of Swiftspear: Is this card a 4 of if you play it, or can it make sense to play just 1 or 2 of them? Does this diminish their usefulness? Also, is it worth it to play them without Atarka's Command?

    As for the SB, I have never been a huge fan of the REB effects, but maybe I am just not using them correctly... I know that I will want 2-3 GY hate effects, is Cage just the best one right now?
    Last edited by SecondSunrise; 12-03-2015 at 09:51 AM.

  10. #1010

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondSunrise View Post
    A question for the supporters of Swiftspear: Is this card a 4 of if you play it, or can it make sense to play just 1 or 2 of them? Does this diminish their usefulness? Also, is it worth it to play them without Atarka's Command?
    You don't have to play 4 but I don't see why you wouldn't. I posted some numbers above showing that Swiftspear is worth more damage than Goblin Guide, but if you have the choice on T1 play the Guide first. The only real restriction on Swiftspear is that you need to hit atleast 4 out of 10 cards to pump it (assuming a turn 4 plan). Simple math would say that's 40% spells or 24 cards that trigger prowess but that's not quite accurate.

    If you use a hypergeometric calculator you need 27 spells for a 77.1% chance (I wouldn't go lower than this) or 30 spells for an 86.4% chance. So the real downside to Swiftspear is that if you run it you have a maximum on the number of creatures you can afford and with 4 Guide/Eidolon the number of Swiftspears and Lavamancers is rather limited. Personally I run 13 creatures (4 Swiftspear, 4 Guide, 4 Eidolon, 1 Lavamancer) and 19 land which leaves me with 28 spells or a 80.6% chance of hitting what I need on Swiftspear... 75%-80% is usually where you want to be on card interactions.

    Note that because of this I think Swiftspear is actually quite bad at maximizing Atarka's Command value because you can't go very wide. That said Command is still fine with Swiftspear because worst case Command is 3 damage+no life gain and best case around 5 damage. It's quite versatile with high upside so even if Swiftspear doesn't let you maximize it, it's good enough. Then again, I heavily favor having some answers to lifegain.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondSunrise View Post
    As for the SB, I have never been a huge fan of the REB effects, but maybe I am just not using them correctly... I know that I will want 2-3 GY hate effects, is Cage just the best one right now?
    It depends on what you want the GY hate for. Faerie Macabre is my preferred hate because it only loses to Stifle and takes no mana. That said, it can't stop everything such as being a bit weak against Dredge.

  11. #1011
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    The better question is, is Swiftspear better than Lava Spike?

  12. #1012

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by jrsthethird View Post
    The better question is, is Swiftspear better than Lava Spike?
    I think so, having creatures tends to make other creatures better because your opponent reaches a point where they can't remove them. For example, Guide on his own was playable as the only creature but he's much better in a 13 creature list since you have a reasonable chance of your opponent just running out of removal. If Swiftspear were your only creature I would rather have the Lava Spikes but in the typical list these days with Guide, Eidolon, and others I'm fine with the Swiftspears instead.

  13. #1013

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Hi everyone, I will be going to a (relatively) small tourney next weekend and I was thinking of slinging red spells. I'm kinda nervous, since I haven't really been to many tournaments, and I wanted to get your opinion of this against a (relatively, I know what at least 3 people going with me will be playing,) unknown field:

    Creatures (13)
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
    1 Grim Lavamancer

    Sorceries (12)
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Rift Bolt
    4 Lava Spike

    Instants (15)
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Fireblast
    3 Searing Blaze

    Enchantments (2)
    2 Sulfuric Vortex

    Lands (18)
    10 Mountain
    4 Wooded Foothills
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Arid Mesa

    Sideboard (15):
    2 Searing Blood
    2 Volcanic Fallout
    2 Smash to Smithereens
    2 Pyrostatic Pillar
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    4 Exquisite Firecraft


    If I could make changes before the tournament, it would probably go like this:
    -1 Lava Spike
    -1 Fireblast
    +2 Barbarian Ring

    -1 Mountain
    +1 Bloodstained Mire

    Volcanic Fallout are for the delver decks, elves, and D&T (yes, 3 is a lot against them, and 4 is virtually impossible, but it also burns the opponent, which can be nice.)

    4 Firecraft so I can race miracles and stuff like RUG Delver.

  14. #1014

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I top 16'd the PIQ today. Cast many bolts. Here is my list.

    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=92685

    Creatures (10)

    4 Goblin Guide
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
    Lands (20)

    7 Mountain
    3 Arid Mesa
    3 Barbarian Ring
    3 Scalding Tarn
    4 Wooded Foothills
    Spells (30)

    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Sulfuric Vortex
    4 Fireblast
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    3 Searing Blaze
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Lava Spike
    4 Rift Bolt
    Sideboard

    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    3 Pyrostatic Pillar
    3 Pyroblast
    1 Smash to Smithereens
    3 Exquisite Firecraft

    Top was awesome everytime I drew it, The 3 rings did real work. Anyone wants a list of my matches I can give em..

    I started 0-2 and then rattled off 5-0 to get a sweet 100$ and 3 open points.
    What are your thoughts on 2 Sensei's Divining Top? I like the idea of less then 4 Grims, but drawing into a 1-of with no draw in the deck seems optimistic. I like the idea of 3 Grims, 2 Tops, and 19 lands (11/8 fetches/mountains).

    Also, how was Vortex mained? I'm not a fan of it as there are more creatures in Legacy these days, but Miracles is also roughly 15-20% of the field.

  15. #1015
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    I usually tend to play 20 lands, and i think you absolutely want 20 if you are going to play 3 grims 2 tops because they make use of a lot of mana. You don't want a top or a grim in play with only one land.

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  17. #1017
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by echofish View Post
    16 lands? That's bold.
    "Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."

    RGCL (GQ)


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  18. #1018

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by echofish View Post
    It's a very low curve which compliments the 16 lands but it looks to me like it would be too inconsistent. A 44.9% chance to cast Ensnaring Bridge on curve is just way too low to be running that card. Your mana development is also going to look something like 1-2-2-2 which means extra Fireblasts are dead cards and your Swiftspear isn't going to pump for much. Overall I think it just doesn't have the mana. If you play a 2 drop, 5 1 drops, and 2 lands that's 9 cards by turn 4 but you'll have drawn 10 cards meaning you don't have enough mana to play your whole hand quickly enough.

  19. #1019

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Quote Originally Posted by Brael View Post
    It's a very low curve which compliments the 16 lands but it looks to me like it would be too inconsistent. A 44.9% chance to cast Ensnaring Bridge on curve is just way too low to be running that card. Your mana development is also going to look something like 1-2-2-2 which means extra Fireblasts are dead cards and your Swiftspear isn't going to pump for much. Overall I think it just doesn't have the mana. If you play a 2 drop, 5 1 drops, and 2 lands that's 9 cards by turn 4 but you'll have drawn 10 cards meaning you don't have enough mana to play your whole hand quickly enough.
    The plan is not to cast Bridge, but to show to Show and Tell, but there is also 4x Firecrafts in main. Anyways, he still got 1st place of 84 players.

  20. #1020
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Burn

    Either he was really lucky or really really skilled. I like the firecraft main. I just can't help but think he sometimes missed a landdrop, and those cards got stick in his hand. Still, fact is he got first. Sure would like to see a report.
    "Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Welcome aboard, in her dark name we do dedicate this performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    That actually sounds erotic.
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