[Primer/Deck] Burn

[Gaudy]

there is one thing i haven't seen here, play Burn is "easy", but play it properly is a very difficult thing

for example if your opening hand is something like this
2 land , 1 lavamancer, 1 vexin devil, 1 bolt, 1 riftbolt and 1 chain
many people think, great i have 9 damage point in turn 2 but, few people see that hand and say, great i have 2 land and 5 spell i can play

[TableTopMagic]

I am here to start a argument.


I know color splashes are Taboo, but this could make a G splash worth it.

It kills Leyline of Sanctity, Batterskull, Jitte, ect.. All while still putting pressure on your opponent.

Thoughts anyone?

[Dice_Box]

Of all I was after was Enchantment hate I would splash white and run Wear//Tear and gain access to combo hate. Still not worth it though in my mind.

[DragoFireheart]

So what are your thoughts about creatureless burn?

Maybe stuff like Flamebreak and Volcanic Fallout to kill creatures and just pitch the combo match game 1.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Fantastic Primer, feline! It is great to see Burn receiving some mature discussion on The Source. Also, I am excited to see people talking about Hellspark Elemental. I'm a big advocate for this card and I discussed some of its strengths in the Boros Burn thread I started a little while ago when I was trying to splash white (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...568-Boros-Burn). I have since given up on trying to splash a second colour in burn (Plateaus have been bought and sold) and I am back to my Mono-Red roots.

Just to lightly touch on the concept of multi-coloured Burn lists, while I was testing with Boros, I began to realize that one of Burn's strongest attributes is the virtual card advantage that is generated from not adhering to the Zeitgeist of Legacy Magic. With minimal permanents and few or even zero non-basic lands, Burn ultimately denies any available targets for a large percentage of the cards being played in Legacy. Much of Burn's power comes from its rogue factor, so I think adding Wasteland targets and more creatures contradicts some of the fundamental principals of which the deck is designed around. Furthermore, I believe that there are plenty of excellent sideboard options available to Burn that can help against the match-ups that we are trying to improve by splashing another colour.

Another Burn topic I am interested in is the discussion of Grim Lavamancer vs. X, where in my case, X=Hellspark Elemental. Ultimately, I think the creatures you decide on for your list are dependant on two things: Meta-game, and play style. Grim Lavamancer is an incredibly strong card against creature decks like Maverick and Goblins, but against control and combo it is more desirable to have cards that deal damage the same turn they are played, such as Hellspark Elemental. This touches on the concept of "guaranteed damage", which is discussed by James Heslip in his Squandered Resources article on MTG Salvation. I highly recommend the read if you haven't already (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/1317-squ...et-legacy.html). As far as play style is concerned, if you enjoy controlling the board state a bit, give Grim Lavamancer a try. If you want to be aggressive and wish to have "guaranteed damage" from all of your top decks, then I suggest Hellspark Elemental.

I hope this doesn't deter anyone from testing multi-coloured Burn lists or running Grim Lavamancer; these are just the conclusions I have come to through my own testing and play style, within my own meta-game. Also, if I may be so bold, I would like to suggest the inclusion of James Heslip's article in the primer's "Awesome Links" section. There is some great information on building and playing burn in that article and I feel like it would be beneficial for all Burn players to have a look at it.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Here is the list I am currently testing:

4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Barbarian Ring
18 Mountain

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction


Concerning the main deck, everything is fairly standard. The only card I am not entirely sold on is Barbarian Ring. I feel like it has stopped me from playing Fireblast more often than closing out a game through hate (ex. counter magic or taxing effects). Also, threshold can be impossible against an active Deathrite Shaman. I'm considering cutting it down to one copy, but I'm not completely sure if I even want it in the deck or not.

The sideboard is something I've arrived at recently and have been quite pleased with its performance so far.

[tesla]

Here is the list I am currently testing:

4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Barbarian Ring
18 Mountain

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction


Concerning the main deck, everything is fairly standard. The only card I am not entirely sold on is Barbarian Ring. I feel like it has stopped me from playing Fireblast more often than closing out a game through hate (ex. counter magic or taxing effects). Also, threshold can be impossible against an active Deathrite Shaman. I'm considering cutting it down to one copy, but I'm not completely sure if I even want it in the deck or not.

The sideboard is something I've arrived at recently and have been quite pleased with its performance so far.

Solid list wich you can be very successful with. Don´t cut barbarian ring it´s super good. In lists without lavamancer it´s auto-include.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Sorry about the deleted post. I didn't intend to do that.

Solid list wich you can be very successful with. Don´t cut barbarian ring it´s super good. In lists without lavamancer it´s auto-include.

Thanks for the reply. After some consideration I've come to the conclusion that the only substantial disadvantage with running Barbarian Ring is the corner case of not being able to cast Fireblast. The other possible downside is having to play a Wasteland target, but that might not be as bad as I had thought. Because of Price of Progress, I usually find opponents wasting their own non-basics instead of yours. I'm going to keep them in the main deck for now.

[JPettie]

Here is the list I am currently testing:

4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Barbarian Ring
18 Mountain

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction


Concerning the main deck, everything is fairly standard. The only card I am not entirely sold on is Barbarian Ring. I feel like it has stopped me from playing Fireblast more often than closing out a game through hate (ex. counter magic or taxing effects). Also, threshold can be impossible against an active Deathrite Shaman. I'm considering cutting it down to one copy, but I'm not completely sure if I even want it in the deck or not.

The sideboard is something I've arrived at recently and have been quite pleased with its performance so far.

I have personally lost a game due to Barbarian Ring being a Wasteland target, so I am pretty bias on playing it and I play the fetch Grim Lavamancer version myself. I do wonder how you deal with Storm going off turn 1, and what in your sideboard comes in against Show and Tell other than Red Elemental Blast. I am curious about your tournament experience and why you chose the sideboard options you have chosen if you could explain them in more detail.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I have personally lost a game due to Barbarian Ring being a Wasteland target, so I am pretty bias on playing it and I play the fetch Grim Lavamancer version myself. I do wonder how you deal with Storm going off turn 1, and what in your sideboard comes in against Show and Tell other than Red Elemental Blast. I am curious about your tournament experience and why you chose the sideboard options you have chosen if you could explain them in more detail.

SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

Smash to Smithereens is mainly for Stoneforge Mystic decks. Stoneblade has been pretty popular, so Smash to Smithereens is boarded in to make sure Batterskull doesn't close out games. Obviously, they also come in against artifact heavy decks like Mud and Affinity, but these decks are not as widely represented as Stoneblade. This card probably presents the most wiggle room of any of my sideboard slots.

Vexing Shusher is for U/W Miracles. I haven't been seeing as much U/W as I have in the past, so I've recently cut them for one more additional Pyrostatic Pillar, Red Elemental Blast, and Surgical Extraction. If Counter/Top gets popular again, Vexing Shusher is a must have, in my opinion.

The reason I am playing Pyrostatic Pillar over Mindbreak Trap is because I haven't found Mindbreak Trap to be that effective against Storm. ANT and TES decks, for instance, run enough cantrips and discard spells to protect themselves against Mindbreak Trap. There may be the occasional game two where you are able to catch a Storm opponent off guard, but once they know you are playing Mindbreak Trap, they will most likely open with a discard spell before going off. Once Pyrostatic Pillar is in play, Storm can't combo until they take care of it, which at the very least buys you some time and some damage (these are the two things you need to beat Storm). Off course Pyrostatic Pillar can be discarded as well, but you're typically not holding it up, waiting for them to go off while they dig for a discard spell. Pyrostatic Pillar also has more utility than Mindbreak Trap. I sideboard it in against Elves, "cantrip cartel" decks, and I've even had success with bringing it in against U/W control. Yes, you will lose if Storm combos off on turn one, but I don't think it's worth dedicating a sideboard slot entirely to solving this problem.

I bring in Red Elemental Blast primarily against blue combo, such as High Tide and Omni-Tell. Concerning Show and Tell, I used to run Ensnaring Bridge, but I feel like this card doesn't address Omni-tell, which seems to be one of the more popular combo decks at the moment and I rather have other cards in my sideboard over Ensnaring Bridge at the moment.

Surgical Extraction comes in against any graveyard strategy deck and usually against combo (ex High Tide and ANT). I ran Faerie Macabre for a long time because they are so great against Reanimator, but with this deck seeing less play, Surgical Extraction is my attempt to help both my graveyard and combo match-ups.

With my sideboarding plan I am ultimately trying to maximize utility, while still address the problem match-ups that Burn will most likely face.

[iamajellydonut]

Yes, you will lose if Storm combos off on turn one, but I don't think it's worth dedicating a sideboard slot entirely to solving this problem.

You're right. It's totally not an issue if you set yourself up to get shit on by several major archetypes.

The reason I am playing Pyrostatic Pillar over Mindbreak Trap is because I haven't found Mindbreak Trap to be that effective against Storm. ANT and TES decks, for instance, run enough cantrips and discard spells to protect themselves against Mindbreak Trap. There may be the occasional game two where you are able to catch a Storm opponent off guard, but once they know you are playing Mindbreak Trap, they will most likely open with a discard spell before going off. Once Pyrostatic Pillar is in play, Storm can't combo until they take care of it, which at the very least buys you some time and some damage (these are the two things you need to beat Storm). Off course Pyrostatic Pillar can be discarded as well, but you're typically not holding it up, waiting for them to go off while they dig for a discard spell. Pyrostatic Pillar also has more utility than Mindbreak Trap. I sideboard it in against Elves, "cantrip cartel" decks, and I've even had success with bringing it in against U/W control.

I am tired from a 16hr shift and I don't really care that much if you run a shitty deck, but I wanted to dissuade anyone else who might think this is a good idea. Because it's not.

Pyrostatic Pillar used to be the go-to combo-stopper for Extended and made a fair showing in Legacy (idgaf about Vintage) due to the nature of ye olde combo. It used to be that in order to win you would cast a thousand spells in order to cast a thousand more spells so that you could maybe win the game. Do you know how many sub-3cc spells Belcher has to cast in order to kill you? On a good day three? That means Belcher can take as little as six whole damage from your Pyrostatic Pillar. Now, you may be thinking "wow! that's a lot of damage!", but keep in mind that you're now dead. This assumes that you manage to cast your 2cc spell before they combo out. Even ANT has its tricks to get around Pillar.

ANT can play around Pillar or just get rid of it in the first place. Elves can either race or combo-kill anyway. Omni-Show casts the fewest spells out of any of the aforementioned and has the best protection.

Pillar is a relic and you'd do well to stay away. Mindbreak Trap is easily your best bet for general combo hate. Yes, it does have glaring holes and flaws, but Burn in general has faaar more critical and numerous faults which is why Burn is a "budget deck" rather than a "good deck that happens to be cheap".

[Lyle Hopkins]

You're right. It's totally not an issue if you set yourself up to get shit on by several major archetypes.

I'm not sure I understand the "major archetypes" you are referring too. Concerning the Storm decks seeing play at this moment, ANT seems to be the most popular at SCG Opens this year, distantly followed by TES, and then the occasional Belcher list. Of the three, TES and Belcher are the decks with the best likelihood of being able to combo off on turn one. ANT is seeing more play than both of TES and Belcher combined and Belcher is very much a rogue deck, so I would hardly describe them as "major archetypes". Mindbreak Trap is great against Empty the Warrens, but all of these decks have alternate avenues they can win with, while playing around Mindbreak Trap; even Belcher can cast one or two spells a turn and eventually Belch you.

ANT can play around Pillar or just get rid of it in the first place. Elves can either race or combo-kill anyway. Omni-Show casts the fewest spells out of any of the aforementioned and has the best protection.

I've been testing against ANT a fair amount recently and I have to disagree with you. I don't see how they can play around Pyrostatic Pillar once it is in play. Furthermore, any damage generated from Pyrostatic Pillar makes it far more difficult for Ad Nauseam to function properly. It may be anecdotal, but the ANT player in my test group has a far easier time dealing with Mindbreak Trap than Pyrostatic Pillar. Similarly, once it is in play, Pyrostatic Pillar stops Elves from going off as well. Concerning Omni-Tell, I would sideboard in Red Elemental Blast over Pyrostatic Pillar.

Pillar is a relic and you'd do well to stay away. Mindbreak Trap is easily your best bet for general combo hate. Yes, it does have glaring holes and flaws, but Burn in general has faaar more critical and numerous faults which is why Burn is a "budget deck" rather than a "good deck that happens to be cheap".

I'm not going to try and argue that Burn is a tier one deck, but it is a viable Legacy list that does put up results, and in my opinion, it is positioned quite well at the moment. I'm not sure if your long work day made you irritable, but the tone of your post is not appreciated.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not going to try and argue that Burn is a tier one deck, but it is a viable Legacy list that does put up results, and in my opinion, it is positioned quite well at the moment. I'm not sure if your long work day made you irritable, but the tone of your post is not appreciated.

Burn may not be a Tier 1 deck, but it's a great meta-deck. I love the butthurt over people losing with their $2,000 to a $100 deck.

If you see a lot of decks that are soft to Burn (BUG, Jund), Burn can work quite well. More so if you tune it to be creature-less.

[Lyle Hopkins]

So what are your thoughts about creatureless burn?

Maybe stuff like Flamebreak and Volcanic Fallout to kill creatures and just pitch the combo match game 1.

I feel like being able to recur damage is important. Also, Goblin Guide is just too good not to run, in my opinion. It's probably worth testing, but I'm not sure if Flamebreak or Volcanic Fallout are the best replacements. I'll check it out though.

[TableTopMagic]

Looks like Burn is in the number one seat at the SCG Atlanta. Very interesting take on burn. I am guessing his sideboard is partially built for show and tell.

Burn
Doug Honeycutt

Creatures (15)

4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders
2 Young Pyromancer

Lands (19)

19 Mountain

Spells (26)

4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard
3 Angel of Despair
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Detention Sphere
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Smash to Smithereens

[LeoCop 90]

I was seeing Doug playing on the stream, unfortunately he lost in semifinal against omnitell. Anyway, his list is full of suboptimal card choices. We all know that cards like hellspark elemental and keldon marauders are not so good in today's metagame mainly because of deathrite shaman that can gain life from them in the graveyard. Moreover, young pyromancers are not a card to be played in burn because they are just too slow, any other burn spell is preferable... and it strikes that he plays the pyromancers AND a lot of other creatures, so there are less spells to feed the pyromancer ability. Then again, he is playing grim lavamancers without any fetchland, and in conjunction with hellspark elemental that also strikes with it.
In sideboard , pyrostatic pillar is not a good choice in my opinion.

Anyway, even if his list is a budget or very debatable one, he reached the semifinals so a lot of compliments to him.

[jlately]

I was seeing Doug playing on the stream, unfortunately he lost in semifinal against omnitell. Anyway, his list is full of suboptimal card choices. We all know that cards like hellspark elemental and keldon marauders are not so good in today's metagame mainly because of deathrite shaman that can gain life from them in the graveyard. Moreover, young pyromancers are not a card to be played in burn because they are just too slow, any other burn spell is preferable... and it strikes that he plays the pyromancers AND a lot of other creatures, so there are less spells to feed the pyromancer ability. Then again, he is playing grim lavamancers without any fetchland, and in conjunction with hellspark elemental that also strikes with it.
In sideboard , pyrostatic pillar is not a good choice in my opinion.

Anyway, even if his list is a budget or very debatable one, he reached the semifinals so a lot of compliments to him.

I've been building a burn deck lately, and I am leaning towards one of the more creature heavy builds. One thing that I don't understand is why Deathrite Shaman is such a threat for creature heavy builds. I understand that it can be used to gain life, but don't we have enough ways to kill it (especially with Grim Lavamancer)? It seems to be a pretty fragile creature against us (unless they have a Mother of Runes of course). I'm pretty new to the format so what am I missing?

[feline]

Well it's been about 6 months since Burn placed in the top 16 at the Open Series, and now we have not 1, but 2 finishes for burn advocates everywhere with these 3rd & 16th place finishes, both at SCG Atlanta on September 15th:

3rd place - Doug Honeycutt - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=59114
16th place - Jeremy Maciolek - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=59131

[DragoFireheart]

Has anyone tested Young Pyromancer in burn?

He seem's like he'd be a natural fit.

[Koby]

Has anyone tested Young Pyromancer in burn?

He seem's like he'd be a natural fit.

The 3rd place finish from SCG Atlanta ran two copies, so I'd say that it worked out very well for him.