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Thread: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

  1. #1

    So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    I was super busy, and didn't have a chance to publish this article until now. I wanted to wrap up my testing first, and didn't get around to that until the last few weeks.

    In this article I discuss 1) the keys to building Rogue Hermit, 2) the two bottlenecks that must be designed around, 3) a comprehensive list of design options, 4) an explanation of what I believe are optimal choices, and 5) 10 goldfishes to show how the deck works.

    Enjoy!

    http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3745

  2. #2

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    I just did some goldfishing myself, and what I got was fairly dissimilar from your results:

    5 t1 goldfish
    1 t1 goldfish with 2x pact backup
    5 Mulls to oblivion

  3. #3
    Rob Rogers
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    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Your first sample hand where you had a turn 2 with pact protection is also a turn 1 with no protection. Which could be relevant against say Dredge or TES. Or any discard/taxing counter deck.

    The hand was ESG, ESG, Dark Rit, Chrome Mox, PoN, Living Wish, Undercity Informer.
    - Mox imprints Pact
    - Remove ESG and tap Mox to play Living Wish grabbing City of Brass.
    - Play City of Brass, tap to play Dark Ritual.
    - Cast Informer, removing your last card, ESG, to activate Informer and win.

    Just thought I'd point that out since you said it wasn't possible.
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  4. #4

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    I just did some goldfishing myself, and what I got was fairly dissimilar from your results:

    5 t1 goldfish
    1 t1 goldfish with 2x pact backup
    5 Mulls to oblivion
    It might be helpful to see your actual hands.

    You shouldn't mulligan T2 hands, FYI

  5. #5

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Smmenen View Post
    It might be helpful to see your actual hands.

    You shouldn't mulligan T2 hands, FYI
    I know. The problem is that hands with Chancellor end up being useless if it's not a t1 hand. I will run out a totally new set and document it.

  6. #6

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    That's not at all how I designed the deck. It's designed to maximize Chancelor by allowing you to invest your Chancelor in a Wild Cantor or Living Wish to set up a turn 2 or turn 3 kill. My list is actually designed to be grindy.

    Consider 2nd Wild Cantor over the LED for that reason.

    Double posted here and on EC:

    A couple of things worth mentioning not discussed in the article, which I'll double post, that may shed light on my approach:

    * At the last minute I cut a 2nd Wild Cantor for the 1 LED maindeck. As I said in the article, Wild Cantor is shockingly important to this deck. Wild Cantor does so many important things, not just alleviate the one bottleneck, but also "store" Chancelor mana for later wins, sacrifice to Therapy, and more.

    The LED was a last second inclusion. I actually prefer 0 LED maindeck. I prefer the way in which this list is able to win on turn 2 or turn 3.

    * I play this deck kinda grindy compared to the speed versions. That reinforces what I just said. I like Living Wish's ability to win on turn two solidly. You have Chrome Mox in play, and Wished for a land, for a solid turn 2 victory.

    This version of the deck, far more so than all of the other versions I tested, can recover better from a counterspell. You can actually grind out victories over turns because of your density of Hermits and because of Living Wish. LED and C of the Annex are much more "all in" tactics. That's why I don't prefer them.

  7. #7

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Hand 1:
    2x Petal, CRitual, Azami, Pact of Negation, Mox, Therapy->
    Therapy, Cantor, ESG, Wish, DRitual Angel->
    Mox, CRitual, Petal, SSG, Maniac->
    Mox, Petal, BfB, Dark Ritual.

    I kept here, and decided to See how long it would take to draw a win. More than 7 turns before anything relevant happened

    Hand 2:
    Pact x2,Petal x2, Dreturn, ESG, Mox->
    Chancellor, Chrome, LED, Summoner's Pact, Wish, Wish

    Reveal Chancellor, Imprint Chancellor, Pact for ESG, LED, Wish, Crack LED-> t1

    Hand 3:
    Maniac, Mox x2, Dark Ritual, LED, Narco, Summoner's Pact->
    Therapy, Undercity, Living Wish, Petal, Undercity.

    Decide to keep. Mox, Imprinting Therapy, Petal Wish for Ebon Stronghold, play it, pass. t2, Draw chrome mox. Imprint secon undercity and win.

    Hand 4: Chancellor x2, ESGx2, Petal, DRitual, Pact of Negation. I doubt a t1 Chancellor of the Tangle is the play, but putting it out there. (would be a t5 goldfish, but this is legacy)->
    Therapy, Critualx2, Azami, Chancellor, Mox
    Ritual, Pact of Negation, Narcomoeba, Undercity, Living Wish (this hand needs at least 2 mana sources to win)->BFB, ESG, SSG, Petal. Draw ritual, then Undercity. t3.

    Hand 5:
    Pact, Petal, Azami, Wish, Chancellor, Balustrade, D.Ritual.
    Reveal Chancellor, Petal, Dark Ritual, Balustrade spy. t1

    Hand 6:
    SSG, Therapy, Bridge, DRitual, Undercity, Pact of Negation, Laboratory Maniac->
    Undercity, SSG, Pact of Negation, DRitual, DRitual, Chancellor->
    DRitual, Critual Pact, ESG, Mox (would you keep this? Need to hit 1/11 win conditions)->
    Chancellor, Living Wish, Chrome Mox, Angel of Glory's Rise
    Reveal Chancellor, Imprint Chancellor, Cast Living Wish, Get undercity informer.
    Draw Balustrade Spy, Narcomoeba, Summoner's Pact, Summoner's Pact, Cabal Ritual t6

    Hand 7

    ESG, Pact of Negation, Balustrade Spy x2, Wild Cantor, Chrome Mox, Petal. Keep (need a mana source) Draw LED, then Cabal Ritual. Win t3

    Hand 8
    Chancellor, Petal Dritualx2, Critualx2, Undercity Informer.
    Reveal Chancellor, petal, DRitual, win t1

    Hand 9

    LED, Summoner's Pact x2, Chancellor of the Tangle, Laboratory Maniac, Azami, Dark Ritual->
    SSG, Narcomoeba, Dritual, Petal x3->
    Therapy, Chrome Mox, Dritual, Petal x2(again, keepable? I wouldn't.)->
    Azami, Living Wish, Living wish, Mox.
    Pass->Draw Chancellor, Draw LED, Draw Pact, Draw Chrome Mox win t5

    Hand 10
    Summoner's Pact, D ritualx2 Pact of Negation, Living Wish, Undercity informer x2->
    Dark Ritualx2 Cabal Therapy, Chrome mox, Undercity shade, ESG. t1 win

    4 t1
    1 t2
    2 t3
    1 t5
    1 t6
    1 t8+

  8. #8
    nidubuild
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    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    I just did some goldfishing myself, and what I got was fairly dissimilar from your results:
    Steve Menendian is the Chuck Norris of goldfishes.
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    You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.

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  9. #9

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Smmenen View Post
    I was super busy, and didn't have a chance to publish this article until now. I wanted to wrap up my testing first, and didn't get around to that until the last few weeks.

    In this article I discuss 1) the keys to building Rogue Hermit, 2) the two bottlenecks that must be designed around, 3) a comprehensive list of design options, 4) an explanation of what I believe are optimal choices, and 5) 10 goldfishes to show how the deck works.

    Enjoy!

    http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=3745
    This is probably one of the coolest, if not the coolest, combo decks I've played in awhile; thank you for bringing it to my intention.

    A couple of criticisims I have,

    A) I think Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath is the best win condition, because Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay are only a marginal consideration vs the Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below and Cabal Therapy package and Maze of Ith, Elephant Grass, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat and Humility are either virtually non-existent in competitive decks, only a single copy in competitive decks or in the case of Ensnaring Bridge, Moat and Humility too slow vs too many draws to matter game 1. Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath reduces the number of dead cards in your hand by 33% compared to Angel of Glory's Rise, Laboratory Maniac and Azami, Lady of Scrolls and the cards that threaten your kill condition have to actually be drawn and cast compared to Emakrul, The Aeon's Torn.

    The only "real" weakness of Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath is Sensei's Divining Top.dec hiding Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile and Terminus on the top of their deck, but in the event you encounter a Miracles player you can always subsitute the Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath kill for the Angel of of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunter kill.

    B) I don't think MD Pact of Negation is worth SB Lion's Eye Diamond, because a significant number of decks in the metagame are not Force of Will decks and the aggregate of losing to Jund, Junk or Storm every time you had to pass for your second turn and face Thought Seize or active Deathrite Shaman probably isn't worth it compared to MD Lion's Eye Diamond and SB Pact of Negation. Even if all you have is discard MD to protect yourself, your opponent probably wont know exactly what you're playing or know whether or not he should counter your acceleration or wait for your win condition anyway.

    C) Have you tried 4 Narcomoeba, 1 Bridge from Below in the MD with the intent of SBing out Bridge from Below ever? Even if the 2nd Bridge from Below adds another black card to the deck, you can't SB out Bridge from Below(s) and rely on 3 Narcomoeba compared to playing 4 Narcomoeba because you'll either automatically lose or be forced to mulligan whenever you draw 1 Narcomoeba. When I play the match up vs Esperblade in my mind, I imagine swapping the Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath kill for the Angel of Glory's Rise and Fiend Hunter kill and gaining another disruption card by being able to SB out the Bridge from Below as well.

    D) Back when I suggested Chancellor of the Annex it wasn't just for Force of Will, it was for Thoughseize as well. I think your SB is lacking with out it or Leyline of Sanctity, because you have no way to protect yourself on the draw from Thoughtseize. You need a more +EV card than Lion's Eye Diamond to replace Pact of Negation in the Jund, Junk, Storm, Belcher etc. match ups because you'll be on the draw at least once vs those decks.

    E) No Swamp in the SB is asking to lose games for no reason vs Wasteland and Peat Bog > Ebon Stronghold.

    F) I think Goblin Charbelcher is a bit too cute, this deck doesn't really ramp up to 7 mana and anything you SB out for it really hurts the consistency of the deck's main win condition. Nobody really plays 4xTormod's Crypt and you can deal with Surgical Extraction with Pact of Negation and Cabal Therapy. It's really hard to know whether or not this is the right SB card to bring in until you actually see what hate your opponent is playing in his side, which puts you at a pretty huge informational disadvantage compared to something like Leyline of Sanctity where it's obvious he's playing discard.

  10. #10
    It's not easy being green

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    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    So, uh. I kind of fail to see what about goldfishing people is "more interesting from a play ...standpoint". Strategic diversity I guess applies technically speaking, but play? Mulligan: the Goldfishing doesn't sound like a game I'd like to play, on either side of the table.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  11. #11

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Sorry for the double post, I just realized that not only does Leyline of Sanctity protect you from discard, but it also protects you from Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb. The only hate cards you'll face with a Leyline of Sanctity on the board are Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progenitus, both of which give you at least one turn to win before they can be activated.

    I also noticed the deck has a few cute tricks to mitigate other forms of hate, for instance you can reduce the effectiveness of Pithing Needle by swapping an Undercity Informer for a Balustrade Spy in the SB.

    Edit: Speaking of which, your suggested list has 5 Undercity Informants in it.

    The more I goldfish the deck the more I think Steven is right about cutting Lion's Eye Diamond from the MD, and maybe cutting Lion's Eye Diamond from the deck altogether. Unlike Belcher, this deck can come back vs disruption and the acceleration doesn't seem to increase the deck's gold fishing speed nearly as much.

    I'm thinking of something like,

    4 Balustrade Spy
    3 Undercity Informer
    4 Livining Wish
    4 Narcomoeba
    1 Bridge from Below
    1 Dread Return
    1 Sutured Ghoul
    1 Dragon's Breath
    4 Pact of Negation
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Summoner's Pact
    1 Wild Cantor
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual

    SB

    1 Undercity Informant
    1 Cavern of Souls
    1 Peat Bog
    1 Swamp
    1 City of Traitors
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Nature's Claim
    1 Angel of Glory's Rise
    1 Fiend Hunter

  12. #12

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Sorry for the double post, I just realized that not only does Leyline of Sanctity protect you from discard, but it also protects you from Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb. The only hate cards you'll face with a Leyline of Sanctity on the board are Deathrite Shaman and Relic of Progenitus, both of which give you at least one turn to win before they can be activated.

    I also noticed the deck has a few cute tricks to mitigate other forms of hate, for instance you can reduce the effectiveness of Pithing Needle by swapping an Undercity Informer for a Balustrade Spy in the SB.

    Edit: Speaking of which, your suggested list has 5 Undercity Informants in it.

    The more I goldfish the deck the more I think Steven is right about cutting Lion's Eye Diamond from the MD, and maybe cutting Lion's Eye Diamond from the deck altogether. Unlike Belcher, this deck can come back vs disruption and the acceleration doesn't seem to increase the deck's gold fishing speed nearly as much.

    I'm thinking of something like,

    4 Balustrade Spy
    3 Undercity Informer
    4 Livining Wish
    4 Narcomoeba
    1 Bridge from Below
    1 Dread Return
    1 Sutured Ghoul
    1 Dragon's Breath
    4 Pact of Negation
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Summoner's Pact
    1 Wild Cantor
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual

    SB

    1 Undercity Informant
    1 Cavern of Souls
    1 Peat Bog
    1 Swamp
    1 City of Traitors
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Nature's Claim
    1 Angel of Glory's Rise
    1 Fiend Hunter
    First and foremost, I think your suggestions are very helpful since I've been tinkering with this list for awhile (Stephen referenced me at the end of his article). While a good idea, I think the problem with sutured ghoul is that it forces you to keep the number of cabal therapies (requires naming removal + FoW) high post-board. This restricts the amount of cards (i.e. leyline of sanctity) that you can bring in. I also like a single deathrite shaman as a possible summoner's pact target to imprint onto chrome mox if necessary. It can potentially generate mana off opponent fetches too. Switching spy with informer post board also allows the cutting of bridge from below to be cleaner since we're increasing the chances of being able to pitch it to cabal therapy if 2 narcomoebas are drawn.

    Another way to play around the gy hate is wishing for a creature. For now, I have desecration demon as that wish target since phyrexian obliterator can't be supported. The other 3 demons can be brought in as well to give you 7 potential demons (4 from wish) to beat down with. This would be harder with sutured ghoul as the win-con since your opponent might keep their removal post-board. I've been working on this deck on and off for awhile and got this idea from seeing Thrun in Stephen's sb. My proposed list is below. Bojuka bog is a high reward card with low opportunity cost since it still produces black mana. However, I am mostly just reserving that slot as flex slot for now.

    3 Undercity Informer
    4 Balustrade Spy
    4 Living Wish
    4 Narcomoeba
    1 Bridge from Below
    1 Dread Return
    1 Angel of Glory's Rise
    1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    4 Pact of Negation
    2 Cabal Therapy
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Summoner's Pact
    1 Wild Cantor
    1 Deathrite Shaman

    Sideboard
    1 Swamp
    1 Peat Bog
    1 Cavern of Souls
    1 City of Traitors
    1 Undercity Informer
    1 Fiend Hunter
    4 Desecration Demon
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Bojuka Bog

  13. #13

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by nudon View Post
    First and foremost, I think your suggestions are very helpful since I've been tinkering with this list for awhile (Stephen referenced me at the end of his article). While a good idea, I think the problem with sutured ghoul is that it forces you to keep the number of cabal therapies (requires naming removal + FoW) high post-board. This restricts the amount of cards (i.e. leyline of sanctity) that you can bring in. I also like a single deathrite shaman as a possible summoner's pact target to imprint onto chrome mox if necessary. It can potentially generate mana off opponent fetches too. Switching spy with informer post board also allows the cutting of bridge from below to be cleaner since we're increasing the chances of being able to pitch it to cabal therapy if 2 narcomoebas are drawn.

    Another way to play around the gy hate is wishing for a creature. For now, I have desecration demon as that wish target since phyrexian obliterator can't be supported. The other 3 demons can be brought in as well to give you 7 potential demons (4 from wish) to beat down with. This would be harder with sutured ghoul as the win-con since your opponent might keep their removal post-board. I've been working on this deck on and off for awhile and got this idea from seeing Thrun in Stephen's sb. My proposed list is below. Bojuka bog is a high reward card with low opportunity cost since it still produces black mana. However, I am mostly just reserving that slot as flex slot for now.
    I SB out the Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath win condition as soon as I see the coast is clear of Emakrul, so Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath should have no effect on whether or not I do or I don't SB out Cabal Therapy. All I'm risking is a game one loss to a miser's Maze of Ith as far as I'm concerned, and considering both Knight of the Reliquary and Maze of Ith have receeded from the metagame post Deathrite Shaman I don't see a reason to play 3 kill conditions instead of 2 kill conditions and +1 Cabal Therapy if it only costs me -1 SB card for SBing an Angel of Glory's Rise.

    If my opponent keeps Swords to Plowshares in the MD, then he's probably bad at Magic, but I'll definitely consider cutting a City of Traitors in favor of a creature. I think the deck is probably playing 1 too many lands in the SB for corner case scenarios, because I seem to get by perfectly fine with just a Cavern of Souls, Peat Bog and a Swamp, and the only reason I'm playing a Cavern of Souls is to force them to counter the Living Wish - which they should arguably counter anyway because they gain virtual card advantage by denying your Peat Bog.

    Maybe I just haven't ran into these double Livining Wish hands or use cases for City of Traitors yet, it seems pretty fringe to me.

  14. #14
    bruizar
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    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    This deck looks awesome. Are you planning on taking this to a tournament any time soon?

  15. #15

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I SB out the Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath win condition as soon as I see the coast is clear of Emakrul, so Sutured Ghoul and Dragon's Breath should have no effect on whether or not I do or I don't SB out Cabal Therapy. All I'm risking is a game one loss to a miser's Maze of Ith as far as I'm concerned, and considering both Knight of the Reliquary and Maze of Ith have receeded from the metagame post Deathrite Shaman I don't see a reason to play 3 kill conditions instead of 2 kill conditions and +1 Cabal Therapy if it only costs me -1 SB card for SBing an Angel of Glory's Rise.

    If my opponent keeps Swords to Plowshares in the MD, then he's probably bad at Magic, but I'll definitely consider cutting a City of Traitors in favor of a creature. I think the deck is probably playing 1 too many lands in the SB for corner case scenarios, because I seem to get by perfectly fine with just a Cavern of Souls, Peat Bog and a Swamp, and the only reason I'm playing a Cavern of Souls is to force them to counter the Living Wish - which they should arguably counter anyway because they gain virtual card advantage by denying your Peat Bog.

    Maybe I just haven't ran into these double Livining Wish hands or use cases for City of Traitors yet, it seems pretty fringe to me.
    In that case, I like your sutured ghoul idea then because every dead card removed makes a huge difference. Continuing that train of thought, I don't think you need the full playset of cabal therapy (opens up slot for DRS). After boarding, I think it's safe to even cut the 3rd cabal therapy since you don't have to worry about naming removal anymore. The biggest debate for me is still pact of negation vs. LED. LED makes wishing for phyrexian obliterator more viable while pact of negation sometimes does nothing. However, it may not be worth playing the deck if we don't run the free counterspell.

    I agree that cavern, peat bog, and swamp will be the selection of choice most times when wishing for a utility land. However, I think city of traitors needs to stay. The times it comes up most often is with the following hand:

    1 informer, 1 black mana (mox, petal, cantor + green/red source; not dark/cabal ritual), 1 green mana, 1 other mana, 1 living wish, other junk

    1. Using green + other source, wish for city of traitors
    2. Tap city of traitors + black mana for informer
    3. Activate informer's ability with city of traitors (or chrome mox) next turn to win

    This is especially relevant against removal-light decks such as combo. Since our topdeck is atrocious, I'd rather not rely on it to generate that last mana.

  16. #16
    The green Ancestral
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    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    If my opponent keeps Swords to Plowshares in the MD, then he's probably bad at Magic ...
    I've seen this opinion posted in other threads (especially Storm threads), and I don't necessarily agree. Consider:

    1) Your opponent might have anticipated your boarding strategy.

    2) Your opponent might not have better cards to bring in.

    Knowing the skill level of your opponent and his or her boarding strategies is key.

  17. #17

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by nudon View Post
    In that case, I like your sutured ghoul idea then because every dead card removed makes a huge difference. Continuing that train of thought, I don't think you need the full playset of cabal therapy (opens up slot for DRS). After boarding, I think it's safe to even cut the 3rd cabal therapy since you don't have to worry about naming removal anymore. The biggest debate for me is still pact of negation vs. LED. LED makes wishing for phyrexian obliterator more viable while pact of negation sometimes does nothing. However, it may not be worth playing the deck if we don't run the free counterspell.

    I agree that cavern, peat bog, and swamp will be the selection of choice most times when wishing for a utility land. However, I think city of traitors needs to stay. The times it comes up most often is with the following hand:

    1 informer, 1 black mana (mox, petal, cantor + green/red source; not dark/cabal ritual), 1 green mana, 1 other mana, 1 living wish, other junk

    1. Using green + other source, wish for city of traitors
    2. Tap city of traitors + black mana for informer
    3. Activate informer's ability with city of traitors (or chrome mox) next turn to win

    This is especially relevant against removal-light decks such as combo. Since our topdeck is atrocious, I'd rather not rely on it to generate that last mana.
    Yeah, I found post-board games where having City of Brass and City of Traitors matters for both the hand you suggested and being able to cast Nature's Claim post-board.

    I don't think Lion's Eye Diamond belongs in either the MD or the SB, because unlike Belcher combo, Hermit combo's win conditions are creatures and Living Wish threatens to put both black mana and disruption on the table with Cavern of Souls, so instead of being able to counter the win conditions with Spell Pierce he has to counter the acceleration or Living Wish for Peat Bog. This means Living Wish is a baiting spell, and the resolution of Living Wish is a virtual Gitaxian Probe i.e. you know your opponent isn't holding a counter spell because he can't let lands on the board. If you play Lion's Eye Diamond, you have to sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond in response to Living Wish, which means once your opponent counters Living Wish you lose. By playing Lion's Eye Diamond, you've either effectively eliminated your ability to bait with Living Wish by going all-in with Lion's Eye Diamond or you've blanked Lion's Eye Diamond by baiting with Living Wish when you have a Hermit in hand.

    Furthermore, Pact of Negation is the single, most efficient counter spell in the game, and it gives you a higher win% vs aggro-control and control in the MD than Lion's Eye Diamond does. SBing Lion's Eye Diamond makes little to no sense, because the EV of Leyline of Sanctity or Nature's Claim is much higher if you won game 1 and are on the play game 2 or you lost game one and need to be certain you wont auto-lose game 2 to hate. So logically you should MD Lion's Eye Diamond vs the field and SB Pact of Negation for aggro-control and control, but then you're essentially accepting a weakness to either discard or Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus and to a lesser extent Pithing Needle.

    For me, the disynergy of hands like, Chancellor of the Tangle, Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Living Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, Balustrade Spy is the issue, because if I go all in on Lion's Eye Diamond and get countered I lose, and if I don't go all in on Lion's Eye Diamond and get Living Wish countered then Lion's Eye Diamond is a blank. My preferred line would be add G to mana pool, imprint Chancellor of the Tangle on Chrome Mox, cast Living Wish, draw Force of Will and now either be able to counter Force of Will with Pact of Negation, play City of Traitors and win or if I had Lion's Eye Diamond simply pass and wait for 1 more mana.

    Until I had played post-board games vs RUG, I had no idea how much of a target Living Wish was for a counter spell because I always made it a target for a counter spell with Lion's Eye Diamond, but once I SBed in Pact of Negation and saw them Spell Piercing Living Wish anyway I knew playing Lion's Eye Diamond was a mistake.

    I don't know how I feel about Deathrite Shaman, hard casting Deathrite Shaman makes their removal relevant game 1 and Summoner's Pact -> Deathrite Shaman for Chrome Mox makes me have to win or lose on the same turn. I think Deathrite Shaman and Wild Cantor may be redundant, because I always have another mana source to filter Wild Cantor into black mana when I want to go off and if I Summoner's Pact for Deathrite Shaman then I want to go off. It's basically only good if I draw it or I have a Chrome Mox in hand, and I'm pretty sure drawing Deathrite Shaman is a lot worse than drawing Wild Cantor without Chrome Mox because you can't cast it off of Simian Spirit Guide and casting Deathrite Shaman and waiting to untap with it is asking for Lightning Bolt.

    I like Cabal Therapy, it has good synergy with Living Wish because of the pseudo Gitaxian Probe effect and it's black for imprinting and disruption for letting my spells resolve. I think my favorite play usually entails Chrome Mox, imprint Cabal Ritual, Cabal Therapy for Force of Will and then Living Wish for Peat Bog on the following turn.

    I really think this deck has "the right stuff," I've just smashed RUG in brutal fashion and that does not seem like something you should be able to say with a combo deck. Most of the more difficult hate to play against are the hate bears, and Death Pact looks like an unbelievably fucking awesome SB card for us if we want to deal with Deathrite Shaman, Meddling Mage, Thalia and Teeg. I may swap Leyline of Sanctity for Death Pact and just rely on the coin flip to dodge Thoughtseize because Nature's Claim still deals with Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb and both Death Pact and Nature's Claim imprint for on color mana when you don't have any thing better to do with them.

    There's something terribily rewarding about stomping on people in Legacy with a deck that doesn't play a single dual land :P

  18. #18

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Yeah, I found post-board games where having City of Brass and City of Traitors matters for both the hand you suggested and being able to cast Nature's Claim post-board.

    I don't think Lion's Eye Diamond belongs in either the MD or the SB, because unlike Belcher combo, Hermit combo's win conditions are creatures and Living Wish threatens to put both black mana and disruption on the table with Cavern of Souls, so instead of being able to counter the win conditions with Spell Pierce he has to counter the acceleration or Living Wish for Peat Bog. This means Living Wish is a baiting spell, and the resolution of Living Wish is a virtual Gitaxian Probe i.e. you know your opponent isn't holding a counter spell because he can't let lands on the board. If you play Lion's Eye Diamond, you have to sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond in response to Living Wish, which means once your opponent counters Living Wish you lose. By playing Lion's Eye Diamond, you've either effectively eliminated your ability to bait with Living Wish by going all-in with Lion's Eye Diamond or you've blanked Lion's Eye Diamond by baiting with Living Wish when you have a Hermit in hand.

    Furthermore, Pact of Negation is the single, most efficient counter spell in the game, and it gives you a higher win% vs aggro-control and control in the MD than Lion's Eye Diamond does. SBing Lion's Eye Diamond makes little to no sense, because the EV of Leyline of Sanctity or Nature's Claim is much higher if you won game 1 and are on the play game 2 or you lost game one and need to be certain you wont auto-lose game 2 to hate. So logically you should MD Lion's Eye Diamond vs the field and SB Pact of Negation for aggro-control and control, but then you're essentially accepting a weakness to either discard or Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus and to a lesser extent Pithing Needle.

    For me, the disynergy of hands like, Chancellor of the Tangle, Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Living Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, Balustrade Spy is the issue, because if I go all in on Lion's Eye Diamond and get countered I lose, and if I don't go all in on Lion's Eye Diamond and get Living Wish countered then Lion's Eye Diamond is a blank. My preferred line would be add G to mana pool, imprint Chancellor of the Tangle on Chrome Mox, cast Living Wish, draw Force of Will and now either be able to counter Force of Will with Pact of Negation, play City of Traitors and win or if I had Lion's Eye Diamond simply pass and wait for 1 more mana.

    Until I had played post-board games vs RUG, I had no idea how much of a target Living Wish was for a counter spell because I always made it a target for a counter spell with Lion's Eye Diamond, but once I SBed in Pact of Negation and saw them Spell Piercing Living Wish anyway I knew playing Lion's Eye Diamond was a mistake.

    I don't know how I feel about Deathrite Shaman, hard casting Deathrite Shaman makes their removal relevant game 1 and Summoner's Pact -> Deathrite Shaman for Chrome Mox makes me have to win or lose on the same turn. I think Deathrite Shaman and Wild Cantor may be redundant, because I always have another mana source to filter Wild Cantor into black mana when I want to go off and if I Summoner's Pact for Deathrite Shaman then I want to go off. It's basically only good if I draw it or I have a Chrome Mox in hand, and I'm pretty sure drawing Deathrite Shaman is a lot worse than drawing Wild Cantor without Chrome Mox because you can't cast it off of Simian Spirit Guide and casting Deathrite Shaman and waiting to untap with it is asking for Lightning Bolt.

    I like Cabal Therapy, it has good synergy with Living Wish because of the pseudo Gitaxian Probe effect and it's black for imprinting and disruption for letting my spells resolve. I think my favorite play usually entails Chrome Mox, imprint Cabal Ritual, Cabal Therapy for Force of Will and then Living Wish for Peat Bog on the following turn.

    I really think this deck has "the right stuff," I've just smashed RUG in brutal fashion and that does not seem like something you should be able to say with a combo deck. Most of the more difficult hate to play against are the hate bears, and Death Pact looks like an unbelievably fucking awesome SB card for us if we want to deal with Deathrite Shaman, Meddling Mage, Thalia and Teeg. I may swap Leyline of Sanctity for Death Pact and just rely on the coin flip to dodge Thoughtseize because Nature's Claim still deals with Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb and both Death Pact and Nature's Claim imprint for on color mana when you don't have any thing better to do with them.

    There's something terribily rewarding about stomping on people in Legacy with a deck that doesn't play a single dual land :P
    I totally agree with you on LED now and have cut it entirely as well. I actually just posted my updated list on the official rogue hermit thread. However, I really don't like pact of negation and found unmask to be far better in my testing. It allows you to have a proactive plan and rip apart any pesky cards (i.e. DRS) your opponent may have. In my testing, it has been nothing short of amazing.

    One of the main reasons why unmask has been stellar is due to the single DRS. It turns the extra summoner's pact black to pitch to unmask on the combo turn. Pitching DRS to chrome mox is now secondary but also very nice to have. I definitely agree DRS makes their removal relevant but sometimes you have to try to store that chancellor mana for next turn. At the very least, it draws removal and delays your opponent a full turn. If unanswered, you'll probably win the game (especially if DRS was played off a chrome mox). I like cabal therapy too but had to cut it to make room for the single DRS.

    As for the sideboard, I think your suggestions are nice. However, my list currently uses the entire sb as a wish board and will open up slots for real sb cards once I get feedback on what wish targets are not necessary. Please see my updated list on the rogue hermit thread for more details on this. Slaughter pact doesn't hit DRS btw since it's black.

    I agree and am glad to see you overcome RUG in your testing. I'm feeling pretty good about this deck right now too. :D

    Edit: my updated list is shown on post #335
    Last edited by nudon; 04-01-2013 at 05:51 AM. Reason: Post #

  19. #19
    It's not easy being green

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    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    So pack the FoWs and Leylines and prepare for playing Mulligan?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  20. #20

    Re: So Many Insane Plays -- Legacy Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by nudon View Post
    I totally agree with you on LED now and have cut it entirely as well. I actually just posted my updated list on the official rogue hermit thread. However, I really don't like pact of negation and found unmask to be far better in my testing. It allows you to have a proactive plan and rip apart any pesky cards (i.e. DRS) your opponent may have. In my testing, it has been nothing short of amazing.

    One of the main reasons why unmask has been stellar is due to the single DRS. It turns the extra summoner's pact black to pitch to unmask on the combo turn. Pitching DRS to chrome mox is now secondary but also very nice to have. I definitely agree DRS makes their removal relevant but sometimes you have to try to store that chancellor mana for next turn. At the very least, it draws removal and delays your opponent a full turn. If unanswered, you'll probably win the game (especially if DRS was played off a chrome mox). I like cabal therapy too but had to cut it to make room for the single DRS.

    As for the sideboard, I think your suggestions are nice. However, my list currently uses the entire sb as a wish board and will open up slots for real sb cards once I get feedback on what wish targets are not necessary. Please see my updated list on the rogue hermit thread for more details on this. Slaughter pact doesn't hit DRS btw since it's black.

    I agree and am glad to see you overcome RUG in your testing. I'm feeling pretty good about this deck right now too. :D

    Edit: my updated list is shown on post #335
    Argh, need to RTFC on Death Pact, thanks. I don't think using your entire SB as a wish board is a good idea at all, you'll face Tormod's Crypt on the draw, look at Pact of Negation and/or Unmask in hand and then understand why. Leyline of Sanctity and Nature's Claim have a lot of value in addressing the most common cards, and subsequently the most devastating cards you can face. If you win game vs Goblins for example, the emphasis on game 2 should be not automatically losing to their mulligan into hate strategy. If they play Rest in Piece or Relic of Progenitus because they double as Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose hate, they're probably dead anyway. But if they play, Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt you are taking an auto-loss game 2.

    Unmask and Deathrite Shaman are interesting, on the one hand I appreciate pro-active disruption vs possible discard and Deathrite Shamans, but on the other hand I'm hesitent to commit to an Unmask, RFG black card game 1 vs an unknown opponent on the play compared to committing to a Lion's Eye Diamond vs an unknown opponent on the play. In theory, both cards accomplish a similar thing vs an unknown opponent holding Thought Seize and/or Deathrite Shaman, Unmask removes the threat and then hopes to be able to win before the opponent draws another threat. But in the case of Lion's Eye Diamond, it virtually removes the threat by accelerating the win condition and winning immediately.

    Another interesting observation regarding Lion's Eye Diamond is that in a tournament setting where your opponent can't put you on Hermit.dec, you can play Lion's Eye Diamond as your first card and bait Force of Will on the play or a counter spell on the draw if you see an island, because you're representing Dredge and the opponent can't allow you to play Lion's Eye Diamond and discard your entire hand unchallenged.

    Say I play Lion's Eye Diamond in the MD, and you ask what makes Hermit.dec better than Belcher.dec if we play Lion's Eye Diamond MD and not Unmask or Pact of Negation? I think the answer is Hermit.dec has guaranteed kills with Hermits as opposed to unguaranteed kills with Empty the Warrens game 1 and can SB into more efficient disruption game 2. On the draw, I'm not certain having a pro-active disruption card in Unmask or a reactive disruption card in Pact of Negation is worth the trade off having accelerated wins in Lion's Eye Diamond if we can win before the opponent can cast Thoughtseize and Deathrite Shaman and if we can require the opponent to have a Force of Will and another blue card or lose compared to having seemingly safer turn 2 wins.

    The other problem with Unmask is that even tho' it's better than Pact of Negation vs the field by virtue of not being dead vs non aggro-control and control decks, I think you still want Pact of Negation post-board because it's the most efficient disruption vs counter spells and Surgical Extractions, it's immune to Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top and usable in multiples (a double Unmask hand is much worse than a double Pact of Negation hand because the Unmasks have to RFG to each other).

    So, say you MD Unmask and SB Pact of Negation, now you have 8 cards, 4 of which directly substiute for the other, that have a comparable effect. Is that really any better than having MD Lion's Eye Diamond and SB Pact of Negation, where you have a greater diversity of effects that can exploit varying match ups based on whether or not you're on the play or draw?

    We can summarise that Lions Eye Diamond > Unmask vs non aggro-control and control decks and that Pact of Negation > Unmask vs aggro-control and control decks. To be fair, Unmask may be > Lion's Eye Diamond on the play vs aggro-control and control decks, Unmask imprints for Black on Chrome Mox compared to Blue and Unmask can discard Tormod's Crypt etc. where Pact of Negation can not interact with those cards. The main problem with Unmask in my mind is that it becomes significantly weaker than Pact of Negation as you mulligan, because the impact of -1 card on being able to disrupt your opponent and win is huge. What's more so, it doesn't seem that Unmask is any better than Pact of Negation with Lion's Eye Diamond because disruption and accelerationg are directly competing for the same MD slots.

    What this brings me to is that I think there may be a middle ground between Unmask and Pact of Negation where you could theoretically cut a Cabal Therapy (playing 3x) and a Pact of Negation (playing 3x) for Unmask (playing 2x) and have a happier medium of disruption.

    I really don't think Deathrite Shaman is worth it, having to Summoner's Pact for Unmask vs an Island before you know whether or not your Unmask will clear the way seems like assisted suicide. If you see double Daze or double Spell Pierce you have just killed yourself compared to Pact of Negation, because a huge selling point for this deck is its ability to draw their counters onto your accerlation unless they want to risk you playing a Cabal Therapy off of a Ritual or casting a Hermit and blanking their Spell Pierce. By disruption your opponent at the begginning of the chain via Summoner's Pact -> Deathrite Shaman for Unmask you have pretty much completely blown your ability to top deck into mana and try to win again.

    I have also come to absolutely hate the 3 Narcomoeba, 2 Bridge from Below and 2 Cabal Therapy configurations because you are competely fuck any time you draw a Narcomoeba and a Bridge from Below compared to the 4 Narcomoeba, 1 Bridge from Below configuration or you have a Cabal Therapy in your hand or imprinted on a Chrome Mox and can't Cabal Therapy enough to discard your combo pieces and clear the way for Sutured Ghoul. Thankfully, that 3rd Cabal Therapy is worth any trade off Sutured Ghoul has for Angel of Glory's Rise and the Laboratory Maniac kill IMO.

    I know I'm moving back and forth on LED a lot, I think it comes straight down to whether or not your metagame is based on Islands or Swamps, or god forbid Islands and Swamps and how your opponent's will conceivably react to a Lion's Eye Diamond as your first play.

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