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Thread: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

  1. #21
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Quote Originally Posted by pavlaugh View Post
    Great article. Now I'm going to derail and ask about missed triggers because it appears the Magic Infraction Procedure Guide should be edited to clarify whether intentionally allowing your opponent to miss triggers is a violation of Rule 4.8 (Unsporting Conduct -- Cheating).

    Rule 2.6 (Game Play Error -- Failure to Maintain Game State) clearly states, "Not reminding an opponent about his or her triggered abilities is never Failure to Maintain Game State or Cheating." However, Rule 4.8 gives as one example of Cheating: "A player notices that his opponent resolved only half of the triggered ability of Sword of Feast and Famine and decides not to call attention to the error."

    I don't understand how the example in Rule 4.8 is cheating given the clear language in Rule 2.6. Can someone explain?
    In 4.8, you can't resolve the trigger halfway - it is one trigger, and both players are clearly aware it took place if half was done.

  2. #22
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Probably due to the large changes made to missed triggers in the past year or so. May have overlooked that particular section in the MTR.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Once a trigger has been announced, it can no longer be forgotten, and both players are responsible for making sure it is resolved correctly.

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Thanks for the responses. @Hof especially, that makes sense. A very fine line, but I now see the distinction between (1) reminding your opponent "about" a triggered ability and (2) reminding your opponent to resolve a previously announced trigger.

    So to further derail, if my opponent announces Counterbalance trigger and then Tops in response, he resolves Top, he fails to resolve Counterbalance, I notice that failure to resolve Counterbalance, and I say nothing (with the intent to gain an advantage), then I get disqualified for cheating?

  5. #25

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Counterbalance is "may reveal" so it's hard for you to know of he just didn't find anything to reveal with top. So I guess answer is no.

    Carsten, nice read again. Keep up the good work!

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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Quote Originally Posted by pavlaugh View Post
    Thanks for the responses. @Hof especially, that makes sense. A very fine line, but I now see the distinction between (1) reminding your opponent "about" a triggered ability and (2) reminding your opponent to resolve a previously announced trigger.

    So to further derail, if my opponent announces Counterbalance trigger and then Tops in response, he resolves Top, he fails to resolve Counterbalance, I notice that failure to resolve Counterbalance, and I say nothing (with the intent to gain an advantage), then I get disqualified for cheating?
    Counterbalance is an optional trigger. While you still put it on the stack, upon its resolution you are not required to chose to use it. This is unlike Chalice of the Void which has no options and always performs its effect upon resolution.
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  7. #27
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    With the current policy of "your opponent is assumed to remember their triggers until they take an action that shows otherwise", with something like CB, they don't even have to announce putting CB on the stack. Now, if they go and take another action that clearly shows they didn't remember the CB trigger like say moving to the combat step (if you're in their main phase, for example), you're golden.

  8. #28

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Nice read despite the sand it leaves in some people's vaginas.

    So the main thing that got taught and proven again to me by reading this, is that if you are in doubt, Chain of Vapor should come in.
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  9. #29

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    I like the play. But I would like it more if he had played the Ponder and them said asked "Resolves?". Then there's no ambiguity if your opponent says "Ok.".

  10. #30

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    It's fascinating that this whole Ponder thing doesn't seem absurd to people.

    It's not like Chalice of the Void is optional. It isn't. There's no reason that Ponder would ever resolve. It makes no sense that this is acceptable.

    This rule is bad and you should feel bad.
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  11. #31
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Quote Originally Posted by kusumoto View Post
    It's fascinating that this whole Ponder thing doesn't seem absurd to people.

    It's not like Chalice of the Void is optional. It isn't. There's no reason that Ponder would ever resolve. It makes no sense that this is acceptable.

    This rule is bad and you should feel bad.
    All of your opponent's triggers are "optional". Why should he feel bad? It's as "scummy" as blocking a trampling 3/3 with your 1/1 and taking a hit from a 2/2 and then saying "take 2"? That's a legal assignment for damage and your opponent would have to be brain dead to not say, "No, 4".
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  12. #32
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    You are not understanding the difference between what should happen with the game rules and how its controller needs to be cognizant of its interactions. The opponent should not need to remind the player how his cards work. If the player cannot keep track of his or her cards abilities then it is solely his or her fault for being lazy or distracted. This a tournament and sloppy play can be capitalized on.
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  13. #33

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Quote Originally Posted by pavlaugh View Post
    Thanks for the responses. @Hof especially, that makes sense. A very fine line, but I now see the distinction between (1) reminding your opponent "about" a triggered ability and (2) reminding your opponent to resolve a previously announced trigger.

    So to further derail, if my opponent announces Counterbalance trigger and then Tops in response, he resolves Top, he fails to resolve Counterbalance, I notice that failure to resolve Counterbalance, and I say nothing (with the intent to gain an advantage), then I get disqualified for cheating?
    Nope. At Comp and above, it is not your job to remind your opponent. IF he fails to resolve a CB trigger, he's missed it. IF he points to it before your spell resolves and resolves it after stopping you, that's showing awareness under the Rules. The "player moves towards library, opponent points to item" it a perfectly valid response. Not skeevy at all, IMO on either side.

  14. #34

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    You are not understanding the difference between what should happen with the game rules and how its controller needs to be cognizant of its interactions. The opponent should not need to remind the player how his cards work. If the player cannot keep track of his or her cards abilities then it is solely his or her fault for being lazy or distracted. This a tournament and sloppy play can be capitalized on.
    I fully understand the rule. Its just silly that things that by design are not optional have to be pointed out or things that dont make sense get to happen.

    Just imagine people didnt know about this rule and then look at the scenario. It suddenly feels pretty damn shady doesnt it? Ponder gets countered when a chalice on one is out. If someone cast a ponder against a chalice sure thats fine. They try to draw cards and thats stupid.

    Again, I get that this is within the rules. Its stupid because thats not how the cards are designed. Chalice isnt meant to be optional. Being able to play a one drop though it because your opponent doesnt stop you fast enough is a silly rule that would not make sense to a lot of people.

    Rules like this encourage the kind of play that discourage many from the competitive scene.
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  15. #35
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Everything you state is correct however irrelevant to competitive play, which Carsten is writing about and most parts of this forum are dedicated to.

    I also dislike the way they changed triggers. However, when I'm in a tournament, I don't care.
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Quote Originally Posted by kusumoto View Post
    I fully understand the rule. Its just silly that things that by design are not optional have to be pointed out or things that dont make sense get to happen.

    Rules like this encourage the kind of play that discourage many from the competitive scene.
    The other side of the coin here is that having to play your opponent's deck for them in a competitive tournament with thousands of dollars on the line is also pretty discouraging. The entire point of competitve play is that your opponent is supposed to be some sort of competition, after all. Your opponent is obligated to actually be familiar with all of the rules in a competitive environment, so it isn't a good argument to say that the rules look shady if you don't know them.

  17. #37

    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Wow, lot's of discussion. Sweet :D Some comments:

    Chalice-trigger: Tournament Rules, Comp Rules or anything else that is officially applied to a match of Magic to regulate what can be done how - that's the rules of the game. I don't make them but I will adhere to them and seek to win within their confines. As far as missing mandatory triggers is concerned, I'd prefer if stuff like the Chalice play didn't work, though I'm a big fan of jedi mind games and similar edges (used by or against me both) so they don't get me riled up the same way the last change did*, given that you only have to pay a minimum of attention to the game state and you'll be fine. I also by far prefer the current situation of making essentially all triggers optional to having to repeatedly remind someone super-sloppy about killing me with his Blood Artist, drawing extra-cards with Bob or ridiculous stuff like that. You should be punished if you can't even be bothered to pay attention to the game you're playing.

    *Having to announce absolutely everything instead of just doing the obvious stuff was quite annoying as far as game-pacing was concerned and made for many missed triggers that were actually remembered but remained unvoiced.

    Obviously none of this matters in a fun kitchen table match - I'd probably still try to mindtrick you, though, just for the heck of it :p

    Also: Playing exactly by the rules should never be considered bad sportsmanship. It's what I'd like my opponent's to do every game. If I fall into a trap, it's my fault for not paying attention and giving them a legal edge. Obviously you ease up on that kind of attitude against your FNM ten year old, they can't be expected to know. Anybody playing competently, though? Gotta learn playing tournament Magic. That's how I learned it back in the mid-nineties (and repeatedly later) - by getting got. I never held it against anybody, I remembered their sweet trick and added it to my repertoire (and there were some rough ones - one particular friend Mana Drain mana burned me out of contention in a large Dülmen Vintage tournament, for example).

    @testing32: The thing is, his saying ok could have been whatever, even just a confirmation that Ponder has hit the stack (I know I do that sometimes, too, in the sense of "alright, let me see what that means for me"). I didn't push things any further because the way things played out seemed to me to be in the perfect spirit of the current trigger policy and makes games easy to play while punishing inattention: I play something Chalice should counter, once I try to resolve the spell (as in when the trigger of Chalice would have a noticeable effect by my spell being countered) he points to it and the spell goes away. Fast, uncomplicated and efficient. Seems good, no need trying to derail something that is nicely intuitive.

    @Koby: if only I had really tested that TinFins list for more than a couple of games - I wouldn't have blown money on playing it. ;) People should definitely rather stick with the normal list than sleeve that one up.

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    @Slag: Thank you for reconsidering your terminology. I agree it's the cutthroat's way of doing things, but in truth that's how I prefer to play Magic - both players trying to win in any legal way possible, mind games and all. Everything the rules allow is fair play. And at a GP, that's exactly what you're expected to do - it's one step before the PT, after all.
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  18. #38
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    Re: [Article]Eternal Europe: Storming in Strasbourg Day 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post


    @Slag: Thank you for reconsidering your terminology. I agree it's the cutthroat's way of doing things, but in truth that's how I prefer to play Magic - both players trying to win in any legal way possible, mind games and all. Everything the rules allow is fair play. And at a GP, that's exactly what you're expected to do - it's one step before the PT, after all.
    If it makes you feel any better, that was a classy statement. I suppose the onus is on me to acknowledge the ever-widening gap in acceptable philosophies at the various REL levels. Although, I can't help but wonder if rules like the ones discussed, which were intended to make officiating easier, aren't increasing the divide.

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