There is a thread for this deck on MTGS here.
Intro:
This deck uses the basic concepts of Solidarity with one rather large difference: The deck is not instant speed. Although this means that the deck loses the amazing untapping power of Reset, it gains a far greater card pool, which in turn supplies the deck with more consistency, speed, and resiliency (A full comparison with Solidarity will be made later). The deck now goldfishes an amazingly consistent turn 3-4 win.
For those who don't know, the deck works by generating ridiculous amounts of mana through the use of High Tide(s) and multiple untap effects, drawing insane amounts of cards, and casting a huge Stroke of Genius and/or Brain Freeze for the kill.
My current list looks like this:
Main Deck:
4x Force of Will
3x Meditate
4x Ideas Unbound
4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Snap
3x Turnabout
4x High Tide
3x Cunning Wish
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Brainstorm
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
10x Islands
Sideboard:
3x Defense Grid
3x Disrupt
2x Brain Freeze
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Misdirection
1x Capsize
1x Echoing Truth
*SB slots can be metagamed pretty easily.
Card by Card Analysis:
Main Deck:
Force of Will-- Protection is a must!
Ideas Unbound-- Draw 3 for 2. In tight spots, it even makes a decent set-up card.
Meditate-- Draw 4 for 3. In the right situation, it even makes a great set-up card.
Cloud of Faeries-- Untap effect that cycles, works wonders with snap, and it’s part of the deck’s infinite combo (see Capsize).
Snap-- With Cloud of Faeries, it untaps lots and lots of lands while making a nice storm count. On its own, if your opponent has a creature, it still works as a decent mana generator. On top of all that, it functions as main deck bounce for annoying creatures like True Believer and Meddling Mage. Of course, this comes at the cost of allowing your opponent's creature removal to disrupt you. However, this issue has shown itself to be rather trivial in practice.
Turnabout-- Huge untap effect, fog, and semi-Orim’s Chant all at the same time. On a side note, this version even lets you cast it end of turn to tap out your opponent and untap before attempting to go off.
High Tide-- Kind of needed.
Cunning Wish-- Any combo piece, win condition, or bounce effect you could possibly need.
Merchant Scroll-- Demonic Tutor
Sleight of Hand-- This is one amazing little card. It digs 2 cards deep for a single blue mana, and is excellent at finding land.
Serum Visions-- These really help the deck to run on such a light mana base. Digging 4 cards for your next land drop at 1 mana is beautiful, and it works very well with other draw cards while going off.
Brainstorm-- Grab what you need, throw back what you don’t, add in one of 10 shuffle effects, and you’ve got one amazing card quality engine.
Polluted Delta/Flooded Strand-- Drawing land while going off sucks, and shuffling after a brainstorm is rather good. 6/10 split seems to work best.
Island-- Kinda need these ; )
Sideboard:
Defense Grid-- Gives some line of defense against Solidarity and helps against Aggro-Control decks as well as Control decks packing hate.
Disrupt-- Helps out against black discard, LD, and a few other things.
Brain Freeze/Stroke of Genius/Meditate/Turnabout/Mystical Tutor -- Wishable combo pieces. 2 Freezes so one can be sided in against Solidarity. Mystical Tutor is for those games when you just can't seem to find a High Tide (Cast on Upkeep, Draw it, Win).
Misdirection-- Wishable Force of Will, and a great way to reverse cards like Hymn to Tourach and Sinkhole.
Rebuild/Evacuation/Hibernation--to quote Carlos El Salvador, “Bounce the bad stuff back.” These would be metagame slots. I doubt you will need them though.
Capsize-- Returns anything and has buyback. It also Generates infinite mana with Cloud of Faeries after 4 High Tides (This happens a lot more often than one would think. It is rare that, when going off, the deck can't go infinite.).
Echoing Truth/Chain of Vapor-- Your basic bounce. Both also do fun things with Faeries. For the time being; play CoV if you wish, but space is tight.
Cards Not Included:
Sapphire Medallion-- It seems like a logical solution to lessen the deck’s reliance on High Tide, but it has proven itself to be unnecessary in testing, and actually slows down the deck, as casting it prevents early hand refinement. Not to mention it doesn’t do anything for a lot of cards in the deck, and would take the slots of other, more needed, cards.
Bosium Strip-- At first this card seemed to work amazingly in this deck, but all it really did was make the deck better at overkill. It did give the deck a way to keep comboing out without giving your opponent cards as well (Diminishing Returns), but it just had too many draw backs. The biggest problem with the card was the disruptability it created in the deck; artifact removal, stifle, baiting a Force of Will, graveyard hate, etc. inhibited your ability to go off. The second major problem with it was that by itself, it couldn't draw cards, so you had to have it AND a big draw spell or several smaller ones. The third problem was that it was slow; Six mana was often times just too much in the early stages of going off (even divided over 2 turns).
Future Sight-- This one gave me mixed results as well. In some cases it just allowed me to go ballistic and play my entire deck off of it, but sometimes I had to rely on it as my only big draw spell and it didn't pull through. It was also a very clunky draw spell at 5 mana, and was once again vulnerable to removal.
Impulse-- This card is very good at doing what it does; however, its mana cost has shown itself to be unexpectedly prohibitive to this deck. One of the biggest problems with the card is that unlike the other small draw cards in the deck, it won't permit you to keep an otherwise good 1 land opening hand (which will show up fairly often). It also decreased the deck's set up speed by preventing the other 1 mana costing hand refinement spells from being played. The last issue is that it breaks the golden rule of storm based combo decks '1 mana, 1 card' (The extra mana is more important in this deck than looking a little deeper.).
Sensei's Divining Top-- This isn't in the deck for the exact same reasons as Impulse; it is great at what it does, but is just too mana intensive. It is only really good when you have lots and lots of mana and are well into going off. In the early turns, it really stunts your hand development by eating your mana. In short, the redundancy of cheap hand refinement makes the top completely unnecessary.
Opt-- Opt is a rather weak card all around. The fact that it is instant speed is nice, but the fact that it will often dig only one card deep, and it's reliance on prediction make it a sub-optimal card choice for this deck. The deck is already running 12 strong one costing hand refinement spells and there is nothing in the deck worth cutting to fit these in; therefore, it doesn't make the cut.
Trade Secrets-- Against aggro, and non-instant speed combo, it will draw you 4 cards for 3 mana, thus making it an untutorable Meditate that can on occasion give your opponent burn cards, REB's, etc. Against control, if you cast this, they draw into every counter they have and you draw every threat you have (A good control player can usually fizzle you under these conditions.), or you gain a mere 1 card advantage. Against instant speed combo, they just go off in response. The deck has more than enough draw power as is, and the drawbacks more than cancel out the benefits.
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast-- This deck is fast enough to race even the fastest of red decks on a consistent basis. I am aware that the 8 blast plan is threatening to this deck, but in all honesty, these really don’t help much as they force you to remove combo pieces, and the deck has other, more important, concerns than a few blasts. Also note that both Disrupt and Grid would be better options for this.
Palinchron-- Palinchron isn't in the deck for the same reason Brain Freeze isn't in the maindeck. It is useless until you've basically already won. If you have enough mana to get the Palinchron going, you don't need it. Also, the Capsize combo works a lot better as you can wish for it when needed (note that the deck's main win conditions are the draw X spells). Palinchron will be dead if he is in your hand when you need early combo pieces.
Intuition/AK-- In short, it is slow, takes up too many slots, and can't do anything the deck can't already do.
Twincast-- Situational as hell. It works optimally with too few cards in the deck, and forces you into large mana investments, which can be fatal. Also, and perhaps worst of all, it can not diversify your hand, so it will be functioning as an extra combo piece that you DON'T need a good portion of the time. Despite being relatively useful and doubling as a counter, it just doesn't cut it. Try it out and see for yourself.
Playing the deck:
Why should I play this deck?:
We all know the qualifications of Solidarity as a deck to beat at this point, so the question you should all be asking is "Why should I play this over traditional Solidarity?" I will list the pros and cons of this deck in comparison to Solidarity:
Pros:
*It goldfishes faster than Solidarity.
*It fizzles less than Solidarity.
*Better set-up cards can make bad hands good, increase your ability to fight through disruption, and find answers.
*Stronger draw power makes disruption less of a liability.
*More untap effects makes disruption less of a liability.
*Defense Grid is amazing.
*You can draw into your last land drop while going off.
*You can go off with as few as 2 lands in play.
*You don't give your opponent a chance to untap, draw, and cast those few extra spells while you're going off.
*Popular hate aimed at Solidarity is less of an issue.
*Turnabout/Meditate/bounce can be cast at end of turn in order to go off with a full untap and before you would have to discard from meditate.
*Main deck removal in the form of Snap.
*Going infinite allows you to beat a deck of any size.
*The fact that it can spend great lengths of time to go off can cause the opponent to scoop without knowing if you might fizzle in order to avoid having you drain the clock and win with a 1-0-0 record.
Cons:
*Less instants means less control of the stack (It still has a lot of instants, just not as many).
*The deck Needs to resolve a High Tide to win.
*The deck has difficulty in the Solidarity mirror.
*Weaker untap.
*Since you go off on your turn, you usually can’t use your opponents spells to up the storm count.
*You have to predict when your opponent can kill you/drop hate.
Mulligans:
Perhaps the most important decision you will make with this deck is the decision of whether or not to mull. Of course, this is dependant to a certain extent on the match-up (For example, if you fear Stifle, you obviously don't keep a 1 land hand with a fetchland), but I would like to provide some guidelines for mulliganing. I will list the number of lands in the opening hands, list the odds (rounded to the nearest 100th of a percent) of getting such a hand starting with a 7 card hand and progressing to a 0 card hand, and I will list some basic guidelines to keeping the hand.
0: 9.92%->14.10%->19.88%->27.84%->38.70%->53.45%->73.33%->100%
Throw it out for obvious reasons.
1: 29.24%->34.71%->39.77%->43.46%->44.23%->39.77%->26.67%->0%
Keep only if your hand is particularly strong otherwise and contains at least two cheap (1 mana) hand refinement spells (The odds of a 1 land hand meeting the above requirements are listed below.).
29.26%->25.65%->20.90%->15.27%->9.26%->0%->0%->0%
2: 33.74%->32.54%->29.10%->23.28%->15.43%->6.78%->0%->0%
Pretty ideal; just make sure you have something to work with.
3: 19.68%->14.81%->9.70%->5.05%->1.64%->0%->0%->0%
Once again, pretty ideal; just make sure you have something to work with.
4: 6.24%->3.44%->2.93%->2.24%->0%->0%->0%->0%
If the business spells in your hand are diverse and/or flexible, you should keep it. Otherwise, toss it.
5: 1.07%->0.38%->0.08%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%
Usually, this gets thrown back.
6: 0.09%->0.02%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%
Out it goes, and shuffle better.
7: 0.00%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%->0%
...yeah...
Drawing a Brainstorm and a shuffle effect can make a lot of hands almost auto-keepers. The odds of seeing Brainstorm and a shuffle effect in an opening hand are as follows.
29.62%->23.99%->18.40%->13.02%->8.12%->4.00%->0%->0%
You should be keeping hands roughly according to the following percents:
70%->60%->45%->65%->60%->45%->100%
For those of you who don't like subtraction, you should be throwing hands back roughly according to the following percents:
30%->40%->55%->35%->40%->55%->0%
Goldfishing:
Due to the nature of how this deck plays (It does not seek to go off ASAP, but rather as late as it possibly can in order to maximize it's odds), I will list the trials by the turn I was aiming to win on, and whether I was playing or drawing.
Playing:
5th Turn: 48/50 96% success rate
4th Turn: 44/50 88% success rate
3rd Turn: 35/50 70% success rate
2nd Turn: 3/50 6% success rate
Drawing:
4th Turn: 45/50 90% success rate
3rd Turn: 39/50 78% success rate
2nd Turn: 6/50 12% success rate
Match-ups:
(These will be quick and basic...Except Solidarity >_<)
Solidarity-- I'm going to have to be a little more detailed for this one:
They have more control over the stack, the ability to go off without casting High Tide, and maindeck Brain Freezes, so this will be a rough game, but you have some tricks up your sleeve as well.
If you get a great goldfishing hand either game and If you are going first, it is often a good idea to attempt to go off turn 3 (Just don't do anything fancy. Don't play extra tides if you don't have to, and don't play a draw spell with a lethal storm count if you can avoid it. Just grab your wish/freeze and win), as they will have one hell of a time going off with only 2 lands in play; Understand that there is some risk in this plan, and that it takes experience to pull off, but it can definitely pay off if used correctly.
If this doesn't happen, use the following strategy:
Scroll/Wish up Counters and/or Freezes to slow them down. After you have found these answers, the game becomes a race to the perfect hand.
During this race it is a good idea to start probing your opponent with eot Turnabouts, as if you can resolve one, you can set up an uninterrupted win on your turn (However, if you need the instant speed untap power, hold onto it).
Somewhere during this stalemate, it can be a good idea to cast a Cloud of Faeries for 2 reasons: 1) it makes your snaps into instant speed untap power. 2) It functions as pressure on your opponent which can push your opponent into attempting a win and walk into a Brain Freeze or a forced fizzle. I would only attempt this if you have an 8 card hand, and sufficient land to defend yourself if they attempt to go off in response.
Also, keep in mind, that during the Early turns, it is not a bad idea to try to resolve a Meditate on your opponents turn in order to put you at an advantage in the race to a perfect hand. Later on, its not a good idea, as your opponent can actually go off on their turn, and you usually want to hold on to Meditate anyway, since it is part of that "perfect" hand.
The match-up is both draw and skill based, and is generally in their favor. Just try to out think them and hope to draw the right cards to overpower them.
Game 2+3 you get Defense Grid as well. Should you get one early, you should be able to push through a quick win. Should you get it later, it will handicap them significantly none-the-less.
Disrupt may be a good option to hinder their early development, but it requires testing.
Fast Combo (X Land Belcher, Nausea, Iggy PoP, etc.)-- These match-ups seems like they should suck for you, but are actually pretty even. This is where you take advantage of your 3rd turn win percentage. The odds of goldfishing them are usually in your favor if you can go off turn 3. Even if you can't go off turn 3, you have 4 Force of Wills and 4 ways to tutor for one, and since these decks tend to rely on 1-2 crucial spells. Disrupts are often helpful here as well games 2 and 3. Keep a look out for cards that help you as well (Helm), but if you choose not to counter them, make absolutely sure you can win next turn, and if they try to win that turn you can stop them.
Slower Combo (Solitaire, etc.)-- Just goldfish them; plain and simple. Keep in mind you have Force to buy you that last turn.
Control (Landstill/BBS/WUBS/Hulk/etc.)-- Control has never been a bad match-up for Solidarity, and it is even better for this version. The draw, untap, and tutor power of this deck makes it extremely hard for them to stop you. They just can’t stop everything, and they usually won’t have a fast enough clock to take you down before you wear them out of counters. It may seem like the deck’s reliance on High Tide would make it easy for the control player to stop you, but if they are trying to counter the High Tides, they can’t counter the draw. If they don’t counter the draw, you just overpower them. Also, keep in mind that an end of turn Turnabout takes out a great deal of their counter power, and that catching them off-guard with a fast win while they are tapped out is often quite successful. Games 2-3 depends on what their sideboard looks like, as enough hate can turn the odds in their favor, but you should still maintain at least a decent chance of coming out on top. Bring in Grids to protect High Tides and limit/completely stop the number of counters they can play after the Tide resolves.
Fast Aggro (Vial Goblins, Sligh, Burn, etc.)-- These match-ups are generally easy game 1. You can goldfish them with relative ease. Games 2 and 3 depend on how much hate they have. However, this hate usually slows them down as well, and you should have answers. Beware of cards that can disrupt you in the maindeck though (Fanatic, Incinerator, etc.).
Slow Aggro (Angel Stompy, Survival Advantage, etc.)--Game 1 should be a piece of cake. Games 2 and 3 depend on how much hate they have. However, you will likely only ever need to answer 1-2 of these spells. Also, it is fairly likely that you can just goldfish them before it ever becomes a factor.
Blue based Aggro-Control (Threshold, Madness, etc.)-- These match-ups are generally in your favor. They can disrupt you and beat you down, but their disruption will be weaker than that of a conventional control deck, and their clock slower than pure aggro, so it won't be as bad as it seems. Build up the best hand you can (read: counter back-up, multiple draw/untap effects) and try to overwhelm them the turn before they kill you. Games 2 and 3 should be pretty much more of the same, except for those lovely Defense Grids which really shine against many of these decks. The only real problems in these match-ups are cards like Meddling Mage which can shut you down, but bouncing them shouldn't be too difficult (Just watch the time they buy!).
Resource Denial Aggro-Control (Deadguy, Sui-Black, Pox, Stax, etc.)-- These will suck. Try to go off as soon as there is an opening. Disrupt and Misdirection are often quite good here though.
ATS-- They have no real clock and the counters they have are few and weak. This match-up should be fairly easy. Just watch out games 2 and 3 for troublesome enchantments.
Welder Survival-- Just try to goldfish them and try to keep Survival/Welder off the board if you can. It isn’t a bad match, but it’s no cakewalk either. They can get the nuts and just go crazy on you, so treat this match as you would a fast aggro deck.
Conclusion:
I honestly feel this deck is superior to Solidarity, simply because it doesn’t lose match-ups that it shouldn’t due to fizzling, or just drawing a hand that is too slow. It also has a better match-up than Solidarity did against many of it’s problem decks like aggro control and other combo decks (It is consistently faster than Solidarity, has more ‘must counter’ spells, and it’s tutors allow it to adapt better to disruption.). Anyway, I have run my mouth off for long enough. Discuss!
P.S. I have updated this many times, so some of the early posts may refer to a list that no longer exists.
"Whatever happens, happens."
Why no Palinchron? It's an auto-win card if it gets going, and not fizzling out I consider a very awesome thing. Plus, who doesn't like a Brainfreeze for a trillion?
I feel it deserves a sideboard slot, at least.
-Slay
OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL
Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.
The same reason Brain Freeze isn't in the maindeck. It is useless untill you've already won. If you have enough mana to get the palinchron going, you don't need it. Also, the capsize combo works alot better as you can wish for it when needed (note that the deck's main win conditions are the draw X spells). Palinchron will be dead FAR too often when you need useful cards. If you have enough mana to get a Palinchron going, you shouldn't be fizzling, so wouldn't you rather have a draw spell in its place, or a more cost efficient untap effect, or even a way to dig for one of the above 2?
I added this into the cards not included section.
On one last note, a trillion is too low, go with scientific notation (9.99X10^99999999999999999999999999999999). If they require you to say the number, the best I can do is 999 googol, 999 decillion, 999 nonillion, 999 octillion, 999 septillion, 999 sextillion, 999 quintillion, 999 quadrillion, 999 trillion, 999 billion, 999 million, 999 thousand, 999 (That's three 9's followed by sixty 0's followed by thirty-nine 9's), so if anyone has a bigger number (and/or a better deck name) PM it to me or just throw it into an otherwise productive post like I just did :p
Note: I've recently been made aware of a new number...the Googloplex, or 10^(10x10^100).
"Whatever happens, happens."
So is there any reason why this deck is any better compared to solidarity? Adding white into it doesnt make it better becuase if you come across a single wasteland, you get boned. Also, why no glaciers? they basically make you ramp into the win. Running only 2 maindeck wins and 2 in the board is kinda jank considering that if youre going against BBS, WBBS, Landstill, or any other type of blue control, you lose.
Also, going off at instant speed is what makes solidarity good, sorceries dont cut it in Legacy.
You do realize the chants are in the board, and I specified not to bring them in against a deck packing wasteland (wish for it if you need it). They were intended for combo not control; the additional help they provide in the control match-up is just a bonus.Originally Posted by Ray D 3
Glaciers? I only run 3 cards that untap all lands maindeck, there are only 8 islands in the deck, and cutting fetch lands for islands takes away the ability to get white mana when you need it, which means you lose more often to fast combo and other Solidarity decks. Also, cutting land for them is out of the question, and cutting spells for them would be terrible.
(Added to the cards not included section)
As far as win conditions go, you should never need more win conditions than you have so long as you don't go recklessly wasting them. Against aggro and combo that is fairly obvious. Against control, if you've already gone off enough to win, it means they ran out of countermagic a long time ago, unless they were foolish enough to save whatever they have for your win conditions, at which point they will be completely overwhelmed with FoW's, Chant, Misdirection, and your win conditions. One of the challenges to playing this deck is to know how to conserve your win conditions.
It is true that the deck can't go off at instant speed, but the detrimental effects of that are only present in the mirror match, a little in the control match-up, and if your opponent surprises you and pulls off lethal damage when you didn't expect it, but keep in mind the deck does have instants, and alot of them. Just because it can't win on the stack doesn't mean it can't utilize the stack. The mirror match is fixed rather well by the chants, the stronger draw power more than balances out a few less instant speed cards against control, and so long as you can estimate how fast your opponent's deck can kill you, you shouldn't be surprised very often.
Please check the description before commenting, as you really only brought up 2-3 issues not already there.
"Whatever happens, happens."
My question doesn't relate to the speed of the combo, which in this environment is more or less irrelevant. My question is: Can this deck storm up as or more consistantly as Solidarity on the turn it goes off. While there is a great deal of draw, your deck does have, as you pointed out, a heavy reliance on High Tide, something Solidarity can go off without. They can storm up with Resets and whatever else, whereas you need to get High Tides off, you're not generating your storm count with just Faeries and Snaps. With 6 or 7 lands, they can reset a couple times and have the mana to pop off 5 or 6 draw spells, then finish with a Freeze or two. You're not actually generating mana unless you resolve Tide. I can't see any way this is more consistant, and the increase of a single turn isn't worth the lack of consistancy, imho.
This deck has actually shown itself to be more consistent than traditional Solidarity.
The deck's reliance on High Tide has really not been as much of a draw back as I thought it would be (As a matter of fact, the only situation in which it becomes a real problem is when control drops a chalice for 1 on you.). The deck has 7 ways to tutor for it and 3 ways to draw it, as well as 12 lightning fast hand refinement spells, which in my testing makes it go off far more reliably than traditional Solidarity, which ranges from 6-9 ways of getting it or getting Thawing Glaciers, and much less cost efficient hand refinement spells as well as weaker tutors.
As far as untap effects go, this deck actually has More untap effects than the original, which means you will not fizzle out as often due to not drawing into one. Also, once again, the tutor power and mana efficient hand refinement spells will find you those untap effects you need to keep going off. Note that with 4 islands out Snap generates just as much mana with a Cloud of Faeries as Turnabout does, generates double the storm count, and requires only half the initial mana investment.
This deck is actually so consistent when going off that it almost never needs to wish for the Brain Freeze to win. It just keeps going and going and going until you can win by making the opponent draw a huge/infinite number of cards with a draw X spell while having multi Force of Will back-up.
If your asking whether or not I can raise the storm count without High Tide, then my answer as I already pointed out is no. However, the ease with which I can find one makes up for that imho. If counters scare you, Orim's Chant, eot Turnabout, FoW, and more High Tides will help you out there. If you’re worried about something like U/G Madness, Glaciers won't help for 2 reasons: 1) There is a very good chance they are running Wasteland, 2) They will just counter the first Reset/Turnabout you play and proceed to kill you.
My testing has shown this deck to be faster, more consistent, and more resilient than traditional Solidarity. I am fully aware that this is a rather bold assertion, but please, please don't take my word for it. Proxy it up and test it out.
(Just be sure to conserve your win conditions.)
"Whatever happens, happens."
Here's an extended decklist that might be interesting...
Jeff Novekoff
2nd Place
PTQ-2/12/2005
Cold Shower
Lands:
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Flooded Strand
8 Island
1 Plains
Creatures:
4 Cloud Of Faeries
4 Sunscape Familiar
Spells:
3 Brain Freeze
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Snap
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Flash Of Insight
1 Turnabout
4 Sapphire Medallion
4 Chrome Mox
Sideboard:
2 Deep Analysis
3 Prismatic Strands
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Stifle
1 Orim's Chant
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
1 Flash Of Insight
1 Words Of Wisdom
Obviously High Tides would be superior to Sunscape Familiar (I think). Just thought I would add the list, it might have some nifty ideas. :)
Solidarity goldfishes turns 3-4, sometimes as early as turn 2, so you're not any faster than they are.
Frankly, losing control of the stack is huge, especially because you need a High Tide to win. Against Solidarity, you're virtually holding them the game on the platter, as they will let it resolve, maybe let you play a few more spells to up the storm count and then win using your cards...
Solidarity to me is a far more flexible deck to play with, which is completely due to the fact that it wins on the opponent's turn. There are so many random cards floating around in 1.5 that hose both of these decks (Solitary Confinement, Ivory Mask, Rule of Law/Arcane Lab, etc.) that sometimes you need that instant speed to win before it resolves.
Also, winning via Braingeyser is a liability when you have mediocre cards; getting the mana required to make them draw out is a lot more difficult than the Solidarity player playing 10 spells (heck, they don't even need to play them all - a huge bonus) and then randomly win with multiple Brain Freezes.
I tested the Intuition/AK engine a while ago and I found that I disliked it for several reasons. In short, it was slow, took up too many slots, and couldn't do anything the deck already couldn't do.
*Added to the cards not included section.
Sapphire Medallion was also tested, and the reasons for not including it are already listed.
The fourth Cunning Wish was tested as well, but it just seemed to make the deck too mana hungry, and didn't add much to the deck. Three has proved to be a very reliable number in testing.
Thanks for the list.
Solidarity has an average goldfish turn of 4.5 (and the odds of goldfishing turn 2 are infinitesimal if not non-existent), while this deck has an average of 3.5. (We're talking average, not range.)
Once again, I would like to note that I am not conceding complete control of the stack, as I still have a large number of instants. I would like to point out that Solidarity, although a difficult match-up is not by any means an auto-loss. It comes down to the better/luckier player wins, just like it always does. You can still eot turnabout them then go off on your turn, you can still wish for and use Brain Freeze in response to a draw spell, you can even wish for an Orim's Chant for protection. Game 2 it even gets a little better thanks to double maindeck chant effects.
They have the advantage, NOT an auto-win.
It is true that responding to hate by winning is a good thing, but if you are able to go off in response to it, you could just as easily have gone off the turn before (When you consider consistancy issues, it would actually be easier.). Also, keep in mind that these spells do not mean the end of the world; you still have bounce/FoW.
You don't have to win with the Geyser. If you can't get enough mana (very rare), you can still just wish for the Brain Freeze as always. The lack of maindeck freezes may seem like a huge liability after playing Solidarity, but I can tell you that this version is actually consistant enough to pull it off. You should, in all honesty, never be fizzling to yourself unless you were rushed to go off a turn earlier than you could (or you somehow manage to Diminishing Returns into a 7 land hand).
You really can't base your assertions with this deck off of experiences with Solidarity, because Solidarity does not run the same way this deck does. This deck can just keep going and going and going when Solidarity often can't, and therefore is required to draw into 1-2 Freezes to win.
"Whatever happens, happens."
Moved to the contest thread by request.
I just recently finished some goldfishing with this deck (175 games), and I wanted to share the results, as this deck not only shows very consistent turn 4-5 wins, but also surprisingly consistent turn 3 wins and some (very) occasional turn 2 wins.
Well, here are my results organized by the turn I was attempting to go off and whether I was playing or drawing:
Playing:
5th Turn: 23/25 92% success rate
4th Turn: 20/25 80% success rate
3rd Turn: 16/25 64% success rate
2nd Turn: 2/25 8% success rate
Drawing:
4th Turn: 24/25 96% success rate
3rd Turn: 17/25 68% success rate
2nd Turn: 1/25 4% success rate
I should also like to note that even after all the experience I have with this deck, due to the sheer quantity of decisions required to play this deck, I am sure I made a few play errors, so it is possible that these results could be better.
Note: I added a goldfishing section to my first post, so check there for future updates.
By comparison I goldfished 2 Land Belcher 25 times and here were the results:
Turn 1: 2 8%
Turn 2: 5 20%
Turn 3: 6 24%
Turn 4: 3 12%
Turn 5: 1 4%
Turn 6+: 6 24%
Suicides: 2 8%
Lets look at this for a second:
2-Land Belcher has an 8% chance of winning on the first turn, a 28% chance of winning within the first 2 turns, a 52% chance of winning within the first 3 turns, a 64% chance of winning within the first 4 turns, and a 68% chance of winning within the first 5 turns.
Higher Tide has a 0% chance of going off on the first turn, an 8% chance of winning within the first 2 turns, a 64% chance of winning within the first 3 turns, an 80% chance of going off within the first 4 turns, and a 92% chance of winning within the first 5 turns.
I believe that what we really need in the way of fast combo is a deck that can win consistantly within 3 turns. This deck has a 64% chance of winning within 3 turns, which is 12% better than what is currently accepted as the top fast combo deck of our format. That seems extremely good for a deck that actually wants the game to go long.
I know that my results are based only on 25 games, but it seemed fairly accurate in my experience with Belcher.
"Whatever happens, happens."
I really want this deck to be as good as you claim, because it's actually within my budget, unlike other decks running 8-12 duals!
How hurt would a straight-blue version, lacking the Tundra, be? How impacted is the deck if I can't acquire all seven fetchlands?
Just a quick shot at a different name for the deck...."Spring Tide".
Sring tide is actually the name given to the higher than normal tides occuring at the new, and full phases of the moon. This alignment of the earth, moon, and sun causes an increased gravitational effect and thus, causes higher tides.
When other people do not assert themselves, they may still have something to be proud of, something that they believe is unrivalled, but it is just that they have not got the same vulgarity of throwing their weight about and imposing themselves and their beliefs on other people. - Dunduzu Kalui Chisiza
If you think a topic is dumb, don't add to it. Pretty simple. - Bardo
Actually, I'm considering making it mono-Blue, as I think Brainfreeze actually does just as much, if not more than the Chant effects in the Solidarity match-up, and they do not make the deck vulnerable to Wasteland at all.
I estimate the optimal number of Fetch lands to be either 6 or 7. If you have to go under that, all it does is weaken Brainstorm, and make running white ill-advised.
Regarding "Spring Tide", I like it.
Could a mod please change the name accordingly for me?
"Whatever happens, happens."
Sorry for the double post, but I feel this warrants bumping.
I just came across a card in the Saviors of Kamigawa spoiler:
Ideas Unbound
UU
Sorcery - Arcane
Draw 3 cards. Discard 3 at end of turn.
Needless to say, this card should work wonders for this deck (note it even makes a decent set up card). Therefore, here is the new list:
Main Deck:
4x Force of Will
3x Meditate
4x Ideas Unbound
4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Snap
3x Turnabout
4x High Tide
3x Cunning Wish
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
9x Island
Sideboard:
2x Brain Freeze
1x Stroke of Genius
1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Snap
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Misdirection
1x Stifle
1x Evacuation
1x Hibernation
1x Rebuild
1x Capsize
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
The ability to not give your opponent a new hand while going off should help in both the Solidarity and the control/aggro-control match-ups. However, it makes the deck more susceptible to black discard and the loss of returns means that each card can only be played once. Hopefully, this will be a benificial trade-off, but then again, it may not.
I would really like to hear from others on this one though.
Edit: Ok, quick change, White was cut as it was no longer pulling its weight. It just didn't do enough against solidarity, so the plan now is to just grab a freeze (Game 2 1 is maindeck) to slow them down, then cast a turnabout eot and go off on your turn uninterrupted.
Edited By Ray D 3 on 1125189173
"Whatever happens, happens."
Yeah, Ideas Unbound will have a HUGE impact on combo in both Legacy and Vintage. Why did they print this thing? Decks like this one in Legacy and decks like TPS in Vintage will have a hayday.
Ok, enough ranting about Saviors: I like your deck, and have tried but failed in my attempts at the archetype in Extended. I still don't see why you don't just go mono-blue, though.
\"And then I punched her in the face and stole her glasses.\"
I am only running a single Tundra. If it bothers you that much, you don't have to play it. However, the sideboarded Abeyances are the best answer I have found to Solidarity. The 2 Abeyance 1 Brain Freeze bit worked very well, but now I have to refigure what to take out (I used to take out the returns).
Anyway, I doubt this will make any real impact in T1. They have plenty of more broken options. It might find play in a few fast combo decks, but they don't usually hold their own in a competitive field. Only time will tell.
"Whatever happens, happens."
Hope I'm not unearthing a dead topic...
Just curious if you've tested Toils of Night and Day. For the most part it seems like a bad Turnabout, but hear me out.
If this deck is going for the speed finish as opposed to a slow control finish, this can accellerate the deck by a turn. It can make turn 2 wins more likely with minor hand sculpting but would probably necessitate making the mana base mono blue.
Something like: 2) Island, Tide, Faeries, Toils
Puts you at the same mana as if you had Turnabout in hand but, with the lower cost, allows for subsequent Toils to offer much greater mana development.
And I'm also a huge advocate of Ideas Unbound in this deck.
Well, it isn't always going for a speed finish mind you. When going off the deck pretty much always has 3+ lands in play, so Toils is 3 mana to get 4 mana, while Turnabout is 4 mana for 6 mana. Obviously, the number increases with the number of lands out as well. Also, Turnabout is a good portion of my game against Solidarity and Control. The ability to cast it eot and go off unhindered on my next turn is quite good.
Thanks for the input though.
"Whatever happens, happens."
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