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Thread: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Compared to the effect, Sharuum requires way too much setup. It turns the once-card-combo that is Tinker into a graveyard-dependant two-card combo at best. And why return sth. from your grave when you can just get it out of your library? Not good enough.
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    You could always run Sharuum as another Tinker target in case your first one somehow gets in the yard.
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    You could always run Sharuum as another Tinker target in case your first one somehow gets in the yard.
    This was the best I could come up with. And still quite viable. Should your Sundering Titan be in the grave, even should you have multiple Sundering Titans in the deck, gaining a Sharuum and a Sundering Titan is so much more valuable than simply a lone Sundering Titan.

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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Hell just sacrifice your titan to tinker it self and get sharuum to get the titan back for more Triggers...
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
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  5. #45

    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    We have to get rid of these damned creature based decks. Playing a creature based deck in legacy aside from mud is like watching youporn with dial up internet.
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  6. #46
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    I would probably just play a UB shell with Thoughtseizes, Forces, Mox Diamonds, and other sweet artifacts (maybe Thopter-Foundry as backup plan) with Tezz AOB, Jace, and Tinkers for Blightsteel Colossus (although Sundering Titan is cute). Basically the Gearhart/Levin/Durward shell, minus crappy card, plus more Tops, 4 Tinkers, and other hotness. Good luck dealing with that in Legacy. Having played Tinker in Extended back in the day, and in Vintage forever, I will say you don't want it in a format like Legacy with the existing card pool, and it would be very unfun for those not playing with Tinker. One card combos are very powerful (see Ad Nauseam), especially when they only cost 3 mana. Show and Tell or Flash, while very potent, at least requires you to have your other crappy combo piece in hand.
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by LOurs View Post
    Challenge accepted : try to show us how do you make a healthy legacy format with tinker unbanned.
    PS : Good luck.

    More seriously, Tinker is probably one of the most unfair 1-card combo ever. The unbanning would have as first consequence to provide to any blue based deck a 2 slots card combo, whatever their main strategy with very little impact on the deck (1 tinker 1 robot + usual backups is a very, very consistent plan B or even C).
    Not sure anyone would love to deal with it in legacy anymore when tinker robot "oops I win" kind of play will be everywhere. Artifact hate would not change the issue that much and would probably not have the same impact than in a format with the full jewelry into ... except maybe to show us an evidence of how warped the format would be.

    To answer to the question of this topic "What would you do with Tinker in Legacy ?" => build any blue deck on a 58 cards basis, at the very least.
    Could we at the least unban it and then ban it again?
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  8. #48
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    There would be a game left after tinker would be unbanned, but it would warp decks to fight it. Think stuff like 4x Envelop 4x Innocent Blood 4x Swords to Plowshares, or Boseiju, Who Shelters All to resolve Tinker.

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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Having played Tinker in Extended back in the day, and in Vintage forever, I will say you don't want it in a format like Legacy with the existing card pool, and it would be very unfun for those not playing with Tinker.
    I am in favour of a lot of unbannings, but Tinker would break the format.
    Try to show us how do you make a healthy Legacy format with Tinker unbanned.
    Legacy is fun as is, no need to fuck it up.
    Is the next thread, 'what would you do with Contract from Below in Legacy?'. Tinker is stone cold, extra chromosome, retarded.
    Could we at the least unban it and then ban it again?
    There would be a game left after Tinker would be unbanned, but it would warp decks to fight it.
    Maybe I should have guessed that people would miss the point unless I spelled it out explicitly for them, but as I mentioned earlier, I'm not arguing that Tinker would be a fair, fun, or interesting addition to the format. My point was to show that Show and Tell and related strategies, while not comparable on every axis (notably Tinker is easier to enable and places fewer constraints on deckbuilding), produce similar immediately game-ending effects for the same investment of cards and mana and thereby to indirectly argue that the format might be more fun without them. Congratulations on missing the point, those quoted above.
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thefringthing View Post
    Maybe I should have guessed that people would miss the point unless I spelled it out explicitly for them, but as I mentioned earlier, I'm not arguing that Tinker would be a fair, fun, or interesting addition to the format. My point was to show that Show and Tell and related strategies, while not comparable on every axis (notably Tinker is easier to enable and places fewer constraints on deckbuilding), produce similar immediately game-ending effects for the same investment of cards and mana and thereby to indirectly argue that the format might be more fun without them. Congratulations on missing the point, those quoted above.
    The phrasing, context, and language in your OP did nothing to "indirectly argue that the format might be more fun" without Show and Tell. Congratulations on not being clear with your OP. Please leave and go back to theorizing with your Legacy "expert" friends, kthxbai.

  11. #51
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thefringthing View Post
    My point was to show that Show and Tell and related strategies, while not comparable on every axis (notably Tinker is easier to enable and places fewer constraints on deckbuilding), produce similar immediately game-ending effects for the same investment of cards and mana and thereby to indirectly argue that the format might be more fun without them.
    In bold is where you are wrong. Having a Seat of the Synod or Sensei's Divining Top in play is not the same as having a Griselbrand in hand. Try building Sneak and Show with only 1 Griselbrand and 0 Emrakuls.

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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    The phrasing, context, and language in your OP did nothing to "indirectly argue that the format might be more fun" without Show and Tell.
    If that had been the main thrust of the thread, it would have belonged in some other thread. The point was to compare the power level of Tinker to existing cards, and to Show and Tell (or Sneak Attack, Goryo's Vengeance, etc.) in particular.
    Congratulations on not being clear with your OP.
    IBA got it. If he's the sharpest guy on the Source...
    Please leave and go back to theorizing with your Legacy "expert" friends, kthxbai.
    The "expert" bit was facetious, but I can see how that might not come across.
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thefringthing View Post
    The point was to compare the power level of Tinker to existing cards, and to Show and Tell (or Sneak Attack, Goryo's Vengeance, etc.) in particular.
    You just said that your OP's point was to "indirectly argue that the format might be more fun" without Show and Tell-style decks, now it's to compare the power level of Tinker to existing cards? Which one is it?

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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    The phrasing, context, and language in your OP did nothing to "indirectly argue that the format might be more fun" without Show and Tell. Congratulations on not being clear with your OP. Please leave and go back to theorizing with your Legacy "expert" friends, kthxbai.
    The "expert" comment was very obviously facetious (this means that it was a joke, while we're trying to be explicit for you), but I guess if you missed his point in the OP you could be expected to miss that as well.

    Nobody thinks Tinker would make the format better, but I'm pretty sure you couldn't do anything with Tinker more egregious than Show and Telling a Griselbrand on turn 2 with FoW backup. I suspect the best thing to do with Tinker if it were legal would be to just jam it into sneak/show with 4 Griselbrand, 3 Emrakul, 1 Blightsteel.

    comboranger's post was intended to discuss the similarity in power level between Tinker and Show and Tell and to solicit discussions on what makes one ban-worthy while the other is not. While the fact that Tinker is more compact, since you get to run less pieces, it is our argument that Griselbrand is so much more powerful than any of the other options (Inkwell Leviathan? 3-turn clock that loses to Liliana. Blightsteel? Can't beat STP or Liliana. Putting Tinker in a MUD shell? You don't get to play any blue disruption. Sundering Titan is pretty good, as noted in the OP) that Show and Tell should be considered on the same power level plane as Tinker. Whether that means Tinker should be legal or Show and Tell should not is open for discussion, although one of those choices seems more viable than the other (HINT IT IS A SHOW AND TELL BAN FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO CANNOT READ BETWEEN THE LINES).

    This discussion came up in part as a result of a discussion that Show and Tell, unlike literally every other supposedly "uninteractive" deck in Legacy, such as Storm, Dredge, Reanimator/Tinfins, etc. has no universally accessible hate card options, aside from black discard (which only works in game one due to Leyline of Sanctity) and countermagic. Even in the case of Tinker, there are myriad options for shutting such a strategy down (Swords to Plowshares, Shattering Blow, various powerful artifact hate cards) but nothing that beats a Show and Tell'd Griselbrand, at least not before its owner gets to draw 14 cards and prepare to make another.

    Edit: I will admit that the OP is confusing mainly because of the title choice, which seems to imply a discussion focused around Tinker's legality rather than its similarity to Show and Tell.
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thefringthing View Post
    So what would you do in Legacy with Tinker? What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?
    So... with a title of "What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?", then asking the question again twice within the OP, you would expect people to NOT answer the question? I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish. You asked a question a total of 3 times, so people are giving their answers (trying to think of all of the silly-average-good-powerful things Tinker could do in Legacy). How did people "miss the point"?

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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    So... with a title of "What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?", then asking the question again twice within the OP, you would expect people to NOT answer the question? I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish. You asked a question 3 times, so people are giving their answers (trying to think of all of the silly-average-good-powerful things Tinker could do in Legacy). How did people "miss the point"?
    I did acknowledge the misstep with the title. I apologize for the fact that my friend assumed that posters such as yourself would pick up on the subtle implications in the OP. He figured that the post would (probably rightly) be locked as a B/R thread if he was more explicit. We will be sure to communicate on your level in the future.

    Edit: The people who missed the point are NOT those who responded with "I think this is the best thing you could do with Tinker in Legacy." Those who missed the point are those who responded with "I don't think Tinker is safe to unban." At NO POINT did the OP ask "Do you think Tinker is safe to unban?" We were operating under the assumption that most Source posters would not really even consider the unbanning of Tinker in anything but a hypothetical context. Obviously, we were wrong, and plenty of people responded with "TINKER IS SO GOOD THERE IS NO WAY IT COULD BE SAFELY UNBANNED" which was never the point of the discussion. I think that the quotes in comboranger's most recent post make it very, very clear that those discussions are the ones he is calling out as having missed the point. I'm not sure why I need to keep narrating this thread to you, but you keep on asking questions that should be more-or-less obvious in my estimation.
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt4in View Post
    We will be sure to communicate on your level in the future.
    You sound like a pretentious, condescending douche. Tell your friend to learn how to properly communicate and not ask a question THREE times in the OP, then get butthurt when people *gasp* actually answer the question.

    EDIT: Also, by giving examples of some fairly lackluster Tinker interactions (Mindslaver? lol), one could easily interpret the OP as an argument for unbanning Tinker. Jesus Christ, if the point of the OP was supposed to be to "indirectly argue that the format might be more fun" without Show and Tell, then couching it within the context of unbanning Tinker is the most retarded thing I've read today.

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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Well I was quoted there a bit out of context. Earlier in the thread I said Tinker away Ichor Wellspring and get Trading Post. Then the discussion go to the point where a few posters commented that it may be okay to unban. That is when I said that Legacy is fun as is and we dont need to fuck it up.
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    You sound like a pretentious, condescending douche. Tell your friend to learn how to properly communicate and not ask a question THREE times in the OP, then get butthurt when people *gasp* actually answer the question.
    Again, since you seem to have missed it, the people who missed the point are not the ones who answered the OP's question, but rather the ones who jumped in shrieking that Tinker is not safe to unban. Tinker is VERY OBVIOUSLY not safe to unban and likely will never be unbanned. The point of the discussion was to compare Tinker's power level to Show and Tell, primarily to paint the latter card in a negative light, not to discuss the possibility of a Tinker unban. The quotes included in comboranger's post make it VERY CLEAR that those players he is calling out are the ones claiming that Tinker is too strong for Legacy, which was something we thought would be taken for granted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    EDIT: Also, by giving examples of some fairly lackluster Tinker interactions (Mindslaver? lol), one could easily interpret the OP as an argument for unbanning Tinker. Jesus Christ, if the point of the OP was supposed to be to "indirectly argue that the format might be more fun" without Show and Tell, then couching it within the context of unbanning Tinker is the most retarded thing I've read today.
    I'm not sure that calling us "retarded" when you don't seem to have the capacity to follow a fairly common rhetorical move is a valid comment to be making. Nonetheless, I will explain further to you. If one of us posted a thread claiming, "Show and Tell should be banned because it is as good as Tinker and here's why," other posters would (rightly) accuse us of sensationalism and hyperbole. The reason we took this approach was to encourage people to draw their own comparisons and conclusions, which would make an argument for the similarity in power level between the two cards and/or strategies a little bit more palatable, as it does seem rather extreme on the surface level. As comboranger noted, at least one poster (TheInfamousBearAssassin) figured out the point of the thread right away, so I don't think it was as unclear as you are making it out to be.
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    Re: What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

    You're still not quite getting it. Part of the point of asking what you would do with Tinker in Legacy was to see if people had better ideas than what Capt4in and I had already come up with. And some good ideas have indeed been suggested, e.g. turn one Chalice into turn two Tinker off of Ancient Tomb. That's certainly at least a little better than a turn two Show and Tell into Emrakul (though probably not better than into Griselbrand). Ideas for what is possible with Tinker obviously factor into any analysis of the power level of strategies based on that card relative to those based on quickly producing Griselbrand and/or Emrakul.

    Edit: ninja'd by my esteemed colleague.
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