You have a very narrow view on what Tinker does and doesn't do, which is same the reason you infamously fumbled your evaluation of Temporal Mastery.Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
With Tinker you run maybe 5-6 slots to support it, with Show and Tell the entire deck is devoted to cheating in a fatty.
With a Show and Tell deck you are all in on the combo and if that plan doesn't work you lose 100% of the time, with a Tinker deck Tinker doesn't need to resolve for you to win the game.
Show and Tell goes exclusively in "all-in" combo decks while Tinker can be used in combo and control
Show and Tell is an entire strategy, any deck with enough artifacts (read, any combo deck) can use transformation SB into a Tinker combo.
etc. I mean I could go on for literally a page on why Tinker is not Show and Tell but if you didn't listen the last 100 times the issue was brought up why would this time be any different?
Basically you think of Tinker as a card that HAS TO go in a stupid combo deck. That deck is actually fucking terrible. The best use of Tinker is in control. It gives control decks a combo that puts a one hit game ender into play, so imagine if SFM was tutoring up a 20/20 trample creature and you get the idea. If that doesn't work they still can end the game with Jace or other creatures or just try again since in Legacy they would have 4x Tinker.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
If you read through the thread you will see that it is not about beeing faster or a more reliable wincon. It is about that it would fit into many different decks representing significant upgrades compared to the currently existing versions turning legacy into a "tinker format" of some kind pushing out many many decks and hence breaking the format. Show & Tell cannot easily go into storm sideboard, Ux aggro, Ux control or Ux Chalice maindeck right? Tinker can.
So if you think tinker is fine you have to outline why you think all those archetypes people talk about would not be better than the existing ones and not warp the meta enough to consider the format "broken".
Also concerning your questions:
- Speed: In the right shell Tinker is essentially a 1 card combo and therefore faster/more consistant than Show.
- Wincon: Griselbrand is surely the most powerful fatty. No discussion. If show->emmy beats tinker->bot: not so sure. But the tinker targets are also not too shabby. Sphinx is better than Grisel versus delver. Islandwalk, Trample & shroud can get it done versus control and there are surely plenty of other useful (non creature?) options versus decks with sacrifice effects.
Currently playing: Elves
But the Tinker target is far more vulnerable. The demon can easily win you the game on the spot, while the Tentacle monster is much harder to remove. BSC is just a dumb robot that falls prey to STP. This is what Vintage players learned and some have opted to not commit all in to Tinker because of this critical difference.
Inkwell? FFS, a Batterskull could race it and other nonsense like MoM don't give a crap.
Tinker might be more compact, but you also have to account for running artifacts to support it reliably, which means either a deck designed for artifacts or running artifact lands (lol Thresh). With SnT, dealing with the resolved monster is far more difficult than just casting STP or some other artifact based removal/bounce.
This is a moot point because if your discard spell resolved, both are affected negatively equally. SnT has the disadvantage of having to dig for their target, but in return gain a far more powerful result that usually doesn't care about 90% of the formats removal. They also don't have to deal with the "shit, this fatty is stuck in my hand". You're going to want more than 1 tinker target as there is a non-zero number of times you will end up with the target in your hand or if they just flat out kill your tinker target with removal.It's easier to disrupt Show and Tell through discard because you can nab their Sneak Attack/SnT or Emrakul/Griselbrand. However, with Tinker it would be practically useless to discard the artifact since they are likely play a deck full of artifacts (SDT, seat of synod, vault of whispers) and they probably already have one in play. So with Tinker.dec you must nab the Tinker or you will lose to it, whereas with Sneak and Show you can grab their fatty or enabler and disrupt them.
In a format with turn 1 combo wins, Griselbanned and other nonsense? No. Would it be a good deck? Sure.Just for the sake of argument... Are you saying you couldn't brew up a Tinker deck that would break the format wide open?
People cried for months about SnT being too good and look how that turned out. I bet the same thing would happen with Tinker: people would freak out but would then remember that Snapcaster Mage, Swords to Plowshares, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and other cards exist and then get over it.
I'm curious as to how Griselbrand wins you the game on the spot when it comes into play? Unless it's Tin Fins where you can literally kill them that turn then he still has to attack a few turns. Of course, if you are playing Tin Fins you're also vulnerable to GY hate.But the Tinker target is far more vulnerable. The demon can easily win you the game on the spot, while the Tentacle monster is much harder to remove. BSC is just a dumb robot that falls prey to STP. This is what Vintage players learned and some have opted to not commit all in to Tinker because of this critical difference.
Inkwell? FFS, a Batterskull could race it and other nonsense like MoM don't give a crap.
Tinker might be more compact, but you also have to account for running artifacts to support it reliably, which means either a deck designed for artifacts or running artifact lands (lol Thresh). With SnT, dealing with the resolved monster is far more difficult than just casting STP or some other artifact based removal/bounce.
This is a moot point because if your discard spell resolved, both are affected negatively equally. SnT has the disadvantage of having to dig for their target, but in return gain a far more powerful result that usually doesn't care about 90% of the formats removal. They also don't have to deal with the "shit, this fatty is stuck in my hand". You're going to want more than 1 tinker target as there is a non-zero number of times you will end up with the target in your hand or if they just flat out kill your tinker target with removal.
In a format with turn 1 combo wins, Griselbanned and other nonsense? No. Would it be a good deck? Sure.
People cried for months about SnT being too good and look how that turned out. I bet the same thing would happen with Tinker: people would freak out but would then remember that Snapcaster Mage, Swords to Plowshares, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and other cards exist and then get over it.
I'm not sure why you're having a hard time understanding that a more compact win condition = more room for disruption, draw, etc. Makes it pretty easy to protect.
Again, it's pretty easy to put artifacts in your deck to fit in Tinker. You really don't lose anything other than some issues vs Wasteland, which you are overstating the impact of.
There are also any number of ways of putting artifacts back into your deck to Tinker out. Brainstorm and Jace are cards people already play. Did you forget that or are you being disingenuous?
You really need to stop generalizing to try and make your arguments work. No, not everyone was crying out for a Show and Tell banning. Basically, outside of hyperbole, lack of specifics, asking for evidence and then overlooking it completely, your argument for unbanning Tinker?
"Dies to removal."
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
Depends on the Tinker target. BSC is, Inkwell isn't. RIP+Helm is an absolute terror in uw decks.But the Tinker target is far more vulnerable. The demon can easily win you the game on the spot, while the Tentacle monster is much harder to remove. BSC is just a dumb robot that falls prey to STP. This is what Vintage players learned and some have opted to not commit all in to Tinker because of this critical difference.
Inkwell? FFS, a Batterskull could race it and other nonsense like MoM don't give a crap.
Mom doesn't stop Trample.
Getting Tinker robot removed is fine, the deck has more win conditions than just Tinker.
No, they are not equally negatively impacted. Not close.
They do have to deal with this fatty is stuck in my hand, a lot more because most SnT decks play 8 things to cheat they will never cast.
Artifact lands aren't spell slots. Divining tops are, but they are good without Tinker.
All this was in this thread already. Also, stop sending me PM's about me and my anus, you creepy old man.
You answered your own question.
I'm not misunderstanding that at all.I'm not sure why you're having a hard time understanding that a more compact win condition = more room for disruption, draw, etc. Makes it pretty easy to protect.
And I think you are understanding that disadvantage. The reason Tinker works better in Vintage is because you're likely already running power nine. Legacy doesn't have many "free" artifacts that are powerful. This means for some decks, you do end up diluting it to make Tinker work. Artifacts will just make Threshdecks happy.Again, it's pretty easy to put artifacts in your deck to fit in Tinker. You really don't lose anything other than some issues vs Wasteland, which you are overstating the impact of.
I'm well aware of Brainstorm. I'm also well aware that you won't always have it in your hand. Are you being disingenuous?There are also any number of ways of putting artifacts back into your deck to Tinker out. Brainstorm and Jace are cards people already play. Did you forget that or are you being disingenuous?
Also, waiting until turn 4 for a Jace to put the Tinker target back into your library doesn't seem broken to me.
You really should take your own advice. I said quite a bit more than:You really need to stop generalizing to try and make your arguments work. No, not everyone was crying out for a Show and Tell banning. Basically, outside of hyperbole, lack of specifics, asking for evidence and then overlooking it completely, your argument for unbanning Tinker?
"Dies to removal."
"dies to removal"
What I did say was:
- More vulnerable target compared to Griselbrand/Emrakul.
- Other Tinker targets are lackluster in comparison that are not BSC.
- Requires a certain density of artifacts to make it work reliably.
=Using artifact lands makes you weak to wasteland.
- Speed at which you kill with Tinker is slower than SnT.
- There are many more hate cards to fight Tinker as opposed to SnT.
What I acknowledged was:
+ The card is more compact and can be used in more decks.
+ Easier to cast compared to SnT.
1. Inkwell has less cards that affect it than Emrakul.
2. Lackluster largey depends on what is being played against you and what robot youre using.
3. The certain density of artifacts is easier to incorporate and doesn't take up 16 slots as other SnT decks do.
4. So does using 5 Sol Lands in SnT decks?
5. Same speed all around. Tin Fins = Rest In Peace Helm
6. Many of those same hate cards get cast for free against SnT
There are easily enough artifacts to play with and to sac to Tinker. It wasn't a problem in Old Extended and it won't be here.
You seem stuck on the fact that Tinker has to be exclusively a combo card. It's not. Combo decks can board it in to sidestep to the hate targeted at their main engine and it's great there. But as I've said, and others have noted as well, it's pretty easy to play Tinker is a combo/control shell. Here is when we get to a disconnect. You only seem to equate speed and broken-ness with pure combo decks. You don't seem to understand that there are times when blue-based control strategies were degenerate. One only needs to look at the last decade in Vintage. You may not think Jace-storming a robot back into your library is a big deal but you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Speed doesn't matter when you can control the game and then close it out in the space of a turn.
Addressing your points in order:
Again, we aren't trying to go turbo robot. S&T and other cheat-a-fattty decks can't easily switch to a control role and are in actuality much more vulnerable to to removal.
You don't need anything other than BSC most of the time. You don't, and shouldn't, dilute your deck with too many tutor targets. Still, Inkwell Leviathan is very good and fulfills a specific niche. Things like Ensnaring Bridge can be good too. It's not that there are no good targets other than BSC but that BSC is just that much better than the next alternative.
There are already decks that jam a bunch of artifacts to play cards that are much worse than Tinker. It's not that hard, honestly. There just isn't that much of an impetus to jam a bunch of artifacts. Artifact lands, moxes, top, baleful strix, etc. are all very playable even without Tinker.
You seem stuck on the Wasteland thing. It's not that big of a deal.
Again, we don't need to goldfish the opponent. The speed at which you kill is irrelevant.
You can plow, path or stingscourger BSC. There aren't really any other maindeck-able answers to him. And even then trying to fight BSC by sandbagging answers just opens you up to lose a game of attrition and if they try and race you, you can just smash them with BSC. Compared to Show and Tell where casting your namesake card is a way to lose games if they drop a permanent like Humility or Karakas. They get no free rolls with Tinker. Honestly, though, I'm not sure what hate cards you're talking about. Historically speaking, it hasn't been enough to keep the card down in the past, not even a little, and it surely won't in the future.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
Jesus H Normandy, just build some decks with +4 Tinker and playtest something already, instead of strawmanning into Perdition.
Please show me where I said:
"Tinker is an all-in combo card that isn't compact and can't be used in many decks"
Number six big time. The fact that SnT is symmetrical it's a huge reason why it is at least a little bit balanced.
I also love how this point went ignored. I hear running 4 tinkers is pretty good
Then why do you keep comparing it to an all-in combo card?
Comparing SnT to Tinker is like comparing FoW to Mental Missstep. FoW has a much higher raw power level, yet it's the card not banned because it's harder to make it work.
Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact.
What would you do with Tinker in legacy? Turn 12 hardcast blightsteel colossus. Turn 13 tinker blightsteel for clockwork dragon.
>Sacrifice Mox Opal
>Fattie dies to StP
>Gain 11 life
SO ALL IN.
The reality of the situation has been, is, will be, in any format, that Tinker doesn't require support. The reality of the situation is that artifact lands are of a next to no risk investment unless you have a greedy six color mana base. The reality of the situation is that answering a Sundering Titan, if you can, is probably the most uncomfortable thing in the world. The reality of the situation is why do you keep bringing up Thresh for no apparent reason?
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
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