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Thread: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

  1. #6281

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Comments on bwangeroo’s deck:

    Overall I think it is well thought and it’s probably the best fair non-blue thoughtseize deck.

    However I don’t think the half way splashes are good. Double coloured spells are already sketchy in a deck with 5 colourless lands without splashing. 11 sources is decent but still a bit concerning. Relying on 1 dual to cast your delver with hate card seems very sketchy to me.

    Three opinions of mine:
    You need a very good reason to not play fow and brainstorm in a fair deck. You aren’t playing Thalia, a fast combo, or chalice. Thus the only reason DGA is not just bad Esper stoneblade is a better manabase, which you have lost with this build.

    Meddling mage is good but it’s arguably worse in fair mus than Tidehollow Sculler or Kitesail Freebooter and not much better in unfair ones. I don’t think it’s worth the splash just for that card.

    Decay is good vs delver, but basics vs Delver are better. Vindicate or Skyclave Apparition are both legacy playables.

    I think you should either make the cuts above so you can run basic plains, castle lochwain and prismatic vista.
    Or accept you have a sketch manabase and play Esper fair blue (stoneblade/vial/mentor depending on whether your favourite card is sfm or soulherder or mentor) for brainstorm, ponder, force of will which are better than any of your sideboard cards.

  2. #6282
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    I also think that BW is better positioned on current meta (Delver, D&T and Loam decks). What do you think about a "core shell" like:

    8 Creatures
    4 Dark confidant
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    21 Other spells
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Swords to plowshares
    4 Hymn to tourach
    3 Lingering souls
    3 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of fire and ice
    1 Batterskull
    22 Lands

    We have 9 flex slots to tune it to the meta (more discard, removal, Opposition agent), etc.

  3. #6283

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    The pox discord is quite active. The WB pox channel has been donated to DGA since dga is probably better than any of the pox builds. Anyways the above builds are basically pox splashing SFM anyways; there is a lot of overlap.
    Good to know, I'll check it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Comments on bwangeroo’s deck:

    Overall I think it is well thought and it’s probably the best fair non-blue thoughtseize deck.
    Thanks – that's quite a compliment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    However I don’t think the half way splashes are good. Double coloured spells are already sketchy in a deck with 5 colourless lands without splashing. 11 sources is decent but still a bit concerning. Relying on 1 dual to cast your delver with hate card seems very sketchy to me.

    Meddling mage is good but it’s arguably worse in fair mus than Tidehollow Sculler or Kitesail Freebooter and not much better in unfair ones. I don’t think it’s worth the splash just for that card.

    Decay is good vs delver, but basics vs Delver are better. Vindicate or Skyclave Apparition are both legacy playables.
    You could be right. I'll continue testing them in the meantime. I think Meddling Mage is actually really good in the unfair matchups (much better than Sculler/Freebooter would be), but it's possible that that's not the best use of those slots since the unfair matchups aren't all that bad to begin with. And a similar, Dark Rit-able effect in Necromentia is available in-color. Also, I've realized through testing recently that it's not as good against certain fair strategies as I thought it would be (Uro/Punishing Fire/Loam).

    Decay is a bit more reasonable, I think, given that Vindicate + Skyclave are both pretty slow. It does make the mana a bit awkward, but hitting Goblin Rabblemaster a turn later or getting your removal Dazed are both pretty bad too. That said, I have had a lot of success with Vindicate in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if I went back in that direction eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    You need a very good reason to not play fow and brainstorm in a fair deck. You aren’t playing Thalia, a fast combo, or chalice. Thus the only reason DGA is not just bad Esper stoneblade is a better manabase, which you have lost with this build.
    What, you mean "I don't wanna play blue" isn't a good enough reason? ;)

    More seriously, I do think DGA plays out quite a bit differently than something like Esper stoneblade. Whenever you play cantrips, what you gain in consistency you lose in velocity. DGA starts can often curve out brutally – e.g., thoughtseize into hymn into liliana – whereas fair blue tends to spend the first couple turns sculpting or reacting. Are the tradeoffs worth it to play cantrips? Probably yeah, but important to note that the tradeoff is there and the playstyles end up being quite different as a result.

  4. #6284

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Comments on bwangeroo’s deck:
    Overall I think it is well thought and it’s probably the best fair non-blue thoughtseize deck.
    Only*. You haven't seen the doomsday transformational sb version though I don't think. It's unfortunate they stopped posting mtgo results.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

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    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  5. #6285
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by bwangeroo View Post
    Decay is a bit more reasonable, I think, given that Vindicate + Skyclave are both pretty slow. It does make the mana a bit awkward, but hitting Goblin Rabblemaster a turn later or getting your removal Dazed are both pretty bad too. That said, I have had a lot of success with Vindicate in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if I went back in that direction eventually.
    I've tested Eliminate and Vindicate on Abrupt decay slots and think the green splash is necessary because the most played decks (Grixis, UR Delver and Miracles on my local meta) play 10+ counters.

  6. #6286
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Green is worth the splash even for just 2 cards: Abrupt Decay and Sylvan Library. Having access to Veil of Summer and Choke out of the sideboard is pretty hot, too
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  7. #6287

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    got a skyclave apparition online. Man, it's expensive. Took out the Murderous Rider for it. So far, I'm liking it. Exiled a Phoenix (the 3/2 flyer for 4 mana) with it. And a goblin in another match. Double white can be hard to get at times but I think it's worth it. Plus, being able to get it back with Liliana, the Last Hope is good.

  8. #6288
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    What is your prefered removal suite?
    I'm currently playing 2 Abrupt decay and 1 Anguished Unmaking because I don't play Liliana, the last hope. Do you think the synergie between her and Skyclave apparition is worth? How many copies of each we should play?
    Thanks.

  9. #6289

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    I run 2 Vindicate, 1 Skyclave Apparition, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Plague Engineer, 3 Liliana of the Veil and 2 Liliana, the Last Hope.

    I think the ability to recur a creature like Skyclave is totally worth it. Only running 1 atm since the double WW isn't the easiest to cast.

  10. #6290
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I run 2 Vindicate, 1 Skyclave Apparition, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Plague Engineer, 3 Liliana of the Veil and 2 Liliana, the Last Hope.

    I think the ability to recur a creature like Skyclave is totally worth it. Only running 1 atm since the double WW isn't the easiest to cast.
    Do you guys think the new card, Fracture, could be worth including? :)

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  11. #6291

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Fracture. Not a bad card. The one I'm really thinking about though is Vanishing Verse. A more versatile removal spell imo. It does have some notable weaknesses though and certainly doesn't stack up the the GB duo of Assassin's Trophy or Abrupt Decay.

    As was really hoping for a card close to Assassin's Trophy to bring my mana curve down (I play a ton of 3 drops). Verse comes very close but not quite. I may try one in the board though.

  12. #6292
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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    Fracture. Not a bad card. The one I'm really thinking about though is Vanishing Verse. A more versatile removal spell imo. It does have some notable weaknesses though and certainly doesn't stack up the the GB duo of Assassin's Trophy or Abrupt Decay.

    As was really hoping for a card close to Assassin's Trophy to bring my mana curve down (I play a ton of 3 drops). Verse comes very close but not quite. I may try one in the board though.
    What are you wanting to hit with Verse?

    I guess here's my train of thought, good or bad:

    Fracture:

    Pros:
    -Hits ANY planeswalker


    Cons:
    -Doesn't hit creatures, but your STP's do.

    Vanishing Verse

    Pros:
    -Exile vs. Destroy
    -Exiles permanents (covers creatures)

    Cons:
    -Only hits monocoloured

    --------

    So, I guess what we have to think is, what are we hitting or not?
    Vanishing Verse isn't hitting Uro, Fracture will. Verse will hit Goyf/Delver/Hoots/SCM/many creatures, but not Strix/Uro/etc. Verse will hit Marit Lage, Fracture will not.

    So, I think there are pros and cons. I think if you're running STP, Fracture may be an interesting inclusion, especially if you're replacing Anguished Unmaking.

    Food for thought.
    "I only drink whiskey older than my girlfriends. It's an expensive hobby at either end of the scale, no matter which way you work it. Do you go with an expensive lady, or a smooth drink? It's a real dilemma."

    "I'm your Huckleberry."

    "If it takes more than a day to decide, you'll never decide"

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  13. #6293

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    What are you wanting to hit with Verse?

    I guess here's my train of thought, good or bad:

    Fracture:

    Pros:
    -Hits ANY planeswalker


    Cons:
    -Doesn't hit creatures, but your STP's do.

    Vanishing Verse

    Pros:
    -Exile vs. Destroy
    -Exiles permanents (covers creatures)

    Cons:
    -Only hits monocoloured

    --------

    So, I guess what we have to think is, what are we hitting or not?
    Vanishing Verse isn't hitting Uro, Fracture will. Verse will hit Goyf/Delver/Hoots/SCM/many creatures, but not Strix/Uro/etc. Verse will hit Marit Lage, Fracture will not.

    So, I think there are pros and cons. I think if you're running STP, Fracture may be an interesting inclusion, especially if you're replacing Anguished Unmaking.

    Food for thought.
    Minor point, but Fracture doesn't hit Uro, either.

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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    I think there is one main question regarding the new cards. Which permanents commonly played in Legacy can be targeted by each one. Besides creatures (Vanishing verse) and colorless artifacts(Fracture), which planeswalker or enchantments are covered by one and not the other?
    Only Teferi, Time raveler played on Miracles maybe?

  15. #6295

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Colorless isn't considered monocolored, right? That means Karn and Ugin aren't hit by verse?

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    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Colorless isn't considered monocolored, right? That means Karn and Ugin aren't hit by verse?
    Correct, Monocolored means, in rules language, "exactly one Color" and Colorless means, in rules language, "exactly zero Colors" so Verse does unfortunately miss those things.
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  17. #6297

    Re: [Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

    Essentially the Vanishing Verse would take up a spot in the sideboard. Just as another cheap removal spell (I usually have a 1 or 2 mana spell in that slot). Mostly for creatures, but in this case, Verse could hit a few other annoying things. Like Sylvan Library, etc.

    Because there are some notable things it misses, I won't run it main. Unfortunately it's no Abrupt Decay or Assassin's Trophy.

    The card I run atm in the board that Verse might replace is Liliana's Triumph. We'll see. Right now Triumph gets the edge over cards such as Path to Exile or Dismember because
    1. I want an instant speed was of killing an Emrakul
    2. Triumph has the potential of being a 2 for 1 card (If I have a Liliana in play).

    But the black white removal cards are getting an upgrade.....just not quite good enough IMO. Would have been elated for a black white Assassin's Trophy. Would be tough saying goodbye to Vindicate though.

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